Hualti, Radiant Champion and the clueless designers from Oktagon

GrizzoMtGPQ

There is no way that the new Hualti was meant to work like this. Once you put out her first ability any decent token deck (Zendikar Roil, Sandworm Convergence, Legion's Landing, etc) will generate you so much loyalty that you can use her ultimate every turn. That means you get a full hand of cards and enough mana to dump them on the board. EVERY TURN.

They screwed up on making this work with tokens. Is Oktagon really that clueless when it comes to token generation?

I guess I'm a shill for D3 now because I'm sure lots of people will rush to buy her now. This is like Kiora when she was first released all over again.

FindingHeart8

From a short-term marketing perspective it's not a horrible move.

I dunno, this could be an example of Octagon paying too much attention to the rants by players in these threads.

We complained about power creep, we got Hualti1, probably the weakest and useless planeswalker to date.

We then complained about the new set being super weak, and we're getting Hualti2, possibly the strongest planeswalker to date.

This could be a good lesson in being careful what you wish for.

Laeuftbeidir

Well, there should be something in between super meh and super strong. We're jumping into different extremes for a while now, that makes it easy to forget how much they did right (Vraska!) .. But the huatlies are not a good example on proper design.
The new girl.. You don't even need tokens for her - she's just extremely powerful.

Quantius

****, I'm leveling her now (lvl 40), she's gonna get nerfed before I make it to 60 isn't she?

Gunmix25

FindingHeart8 said:

From a short-term marketing perspective it's not a horrible move.

I dunno, this could be an example of Octagon paying too much attention to the rants by players in these threads.

We complained about power creep, we got Hualti1, probably the weakest and useless planeswalker to date.

We then complained about the new set being super weak, and we're getting Hualti2, possibly the strongest planeswalker to date.

This could be a good lesson in being careful what you wish for.

BINGO

there are going to be ramifications for the constant flow of complaints ... and Findingheart8 did a fine job of labeling these incidents out.

DaddyO

Good discussion. The brokenness is clear but it will come down to how Greg (or Platinum Patty) use the abilities. We like broken when it isn’t kicking our butts or looping for long turns. 

Coilbox

Well... in my opinion... and i hope i wont get bitten for saying this... Yes, you can use her third ability almost every turn, but it's actually not THAT strong, i mean, it's not like... game decissive if you know what i mean...

You draw 2 cards per creature and gain a good amount of mana... If you only have one token on the table you will draw two cards and then gain a bit of mana... So yeah, you will be able to use it every turn if your tokens survive, but it's not gonna give you the match straight away... is it?

Yeah, i agree it's a good skill... but taking Koth as an example... once you trigger his first skill once, you can do it nearly every turn, and after 2 easy cascades his second and third go straight after...
And also, consider Koth mana gains when he connects 3 or 4 red gems...

I dont think it's such a fail to say they are just clueless. Im playing a lot with Huatli in the last days trying to build some powerful decks, and yeah, as I said, its powerful, but it wont just give you the victory straight away.

Gunmix25

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

I guess I'm a shill for D3 now because I'm sure lots of people will rush to buy her now. This is like Kiora when she was first released all over again.

Nah, She was already the talk of forums here and abroad. Her abilities shilled themselves, that and @bken1234 pointed out a day or so ago how good her loyalties were in the PW thread. Although you make a good point about tokens. It needed to be said.  

FindingHeart8

I haven't faced her yet, but it would be really interesting to see how the AI runs her.

Though unless her abilities cause a 10min loop-to-win combo or can do 999 damage to me on turn 4, I think I'll hold back on the salt.

Gunmix25

Coilbox said:

Well... in my opinion... and i hope i wont get bitten for saying this... Yes, you can use her third ability almost every turn, but it's actually not THAT strong, i mean, it's not like... game decissive if you know what i mean...

You draw 2 cards per creature and gain a good amount of mana... If you only have one token on the table you will draw two cards and then gain a bit of mana... So yeah, you will be able to use it every turn if your tokens survive, but it's not gonna give you the match straight away... is it?

Yeah, i agree it's a good skill... but taking Koth as an example... once you trigger his first skill once, you can do it nearly every turn, and after 2 easy cascades his second and third go straight after...
And also, consider Koth mana gains when he connects 3 or 4 red gems...

I dont think it's such a fail to say they are just clueless. Im playing a lot with Huatli in the last days trying to build some powerful decks, and yeah, as I said, its powerful, but it wont just give you the victory straight away.

I agree with this assessment.  Your example of Koth is an excellent one to boot. Heck, we ALL know too well just how often he is in TG and why.we have also seen post after post after post about how Koth should be nerfed.  I have learned to fight him, and yes his first loyalty is annoying and often gives him a constant edge on me. But like any good player, I have learned to adapt and often use sideboard cards in case I face him... the latter is a joke... I always face him in TG sheesh. 

Anyways,  I went back and played Kiora again and found that with her I can just as easily steam roll over the opponent as i do with H2. We don't use loyalty 3 that often because spam the tinykitty out of loyalty 1 and because of green being green we reach that very often. Now her loyalty 2 brought in ridiculous high costed creatures within range of an average one swap's worth of casting. I was using this almost every turn. Loyalty 3 is a no brainer... 32/32 defender with reach.... seriously? Nah. Kiora is a monster of proportions and yet we have all learned to work with her... as we have with Samut and as we will with H2. 

FindingHeart8

Gunmix25 said:

Coilbox said:

Well... in my opinion... and i hope i wont get bitten for saying this... Yes, you can use her third ability almost every turn, but it's actually not THAT strong, i mean, it's not like... game decissive if you know what i mean...

You draw 2 cards per creature and gain a good amount of mana... If you only have one token on the table you will draw two cards and then gain a bit of mana... So yeah, you will be able to use it every turn if your tokens survive, but it's not gonna give you the match straight away... is it?

Yeah, i agree it's a good skill... but taking Koth as an example... once you trigger his first skill once, you can do it nearly every turn, and after 2 easy cascades his second and third go straight after...
And also, consider Koth mana gains when he connects 3 or 4 red gems...

I dont think it's such a fail to say they are just clueless. Im playing a lot with Huatli in the last days trying to build some powerful decks, and yeah, as I said, its powerful, but it wont just give you the victory straight away.

I agree with this assessment.  Your example of Koth is an excellent one to boot. Heck, we ALL know too well just how often he is in TG and why.we have also seen post after post after post about how Koth should be nerfed.  I have learned to fight him, and yes his first loyalty is annoying and often gives him a constant edge on me. But like any good player, I have learned to adapt and often use sideboard cards in case I face him... the latter is a joke... I always face him in TG sheesh. 

Anyways,  I went back and played Kiora again and found that with her I can just as easily steam roll over the opponent as i do with H2. We don't use loyalty 3 that often because spam the tinykitty out of loyalty 1 and because of green being green we reach that very often. Now her loyalty 2 brought in ridiculous high costed creatures with an average one swap's worth of casting. I was using this almost every turn. Loyalty 3 is a no brainer... 32/32 defender with reach.... seriously? Nah. Kiora is a monster of proportions and yet we have all learned to work with her... as we have with Samut and as we will with H2. 

all of these walkers, as scary as they may be...are still nothing in comparison to the overpowered insanity that was Gideon1 and his bff Runaway Carriage

Mainloop25

FindingHeart8 said:

I haven't faced her yet, but it would be really interesting to see how the AI runs her.

Though unless her abilities cause a 10min loop-to-win combo or can do 999 damage to me on turn 4, I think I'll hold back on the salt.

Do things really need to be that broken before they are worth rebalancing? 

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Gunmix25 said:

Coilbox said:

Well... in my opinion... and i hope i wont get bitten for saying this... Yes, you can use her third ability almost every turn, but it's actually not THAT strong, i mean, it's not like... game decissive if you know what i mean...

You draw 2 cards per creature and gain a good amount of mana... If you only have one token on the table you will draw two cards and then gain a bit of mana... So yeah, you will be able to use it every turn if your tokens survive, but it's not gonna give you the match straight away... is it?

Yeah, i agree it's a good skill... but taking Koth as an example... once you trigger his first skill once, you can do it nearly every turn, and after 2 easy cascades his second and third go straight after...
And also, consider Koth mana gains when he connects 3 or 4 red gems...

I dont think it's such a fail to say they are just clueless. Im playing a lot with Huatli in the last days trying to build some powerful decks, and yeah, as I said, its powerful, but it wont just give you the victory straight away.

I agree with this assessment.  Your example of Koth is an excellent one to boot. Heck, we ALL know too well just how often he is in TG and why.we have also seen post after post after post about how Koth should be nerfed.  I have learned to fight him, and yes his first loyalty is annoying and often gives him a constant edge on me. But like any good player, I have learned to adapt and often use sideboard cards in case I face him... the latter is a joke... I always face him in TG sheesh. 

Anyways,  I went back and played Kiora again and found that with her I can just as easily steam roll over the opponent as i do with H2. We don't use loyalty 3 that often because spam the tinykitty out of loyalty 1 and because of green being green we reach that very often. Now her loyalty 2 brought in ridiculous high costed creatures with an average one swap's worth of casting. I was using this almost every turn. Loyalty 3 is a no brainer... 32/32 defender with reach.... seriously? Nah. Kiora is a monster of proportions and yet we have all learned to work with her... as we have with Samut and as we will with H2. 

all of these walkers, as scary as they may be...are still nothing in comparison to the overpowered insanity that was Gideon1 and his bff Runaway Carriage

Please, don't remind us.  That was sheer and utter madness.  You're going to start a wonderful tangent debate as to which was the most OP combo.

Remember N1 with Undergrowth Champion and Mantle of Webs?

Or Harness the Storm and Devil's Playground?

DumasAG

Haven't played against her and don't have her. But this is a great reason not to pay money for PWs, cause by the time she's available in the vault we may have a nerfed Huatli that's less appealing.

Maybe they're not clueless though? Maybe creating a super strong PW that relies heavily on their abilities is a way to A) make money by selling the PW and make money by all the people trying to get sorcerous spyglass? Would have been nice to have a chance at immortal sun in the event

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I haven't faced her yet, but it would be really interesting to see how the AI runs her.

Though unless her abilities cause a 10min loop-to-win combo or can do 999 damage to me on turn 4, I think I'll hold back on the salt.

Do things really need to be that broken before they are worth rebalancing? 

following what @Coilbox and @Gunmix25 have perceptively discussed, there are other really powerful planeswalkers and mechanics that we've learned to live with.  If it's broken enough to where there is a clear negative impact on the majority of players, I'm all for looking into fixing it.  However, I'd like to see how it runs for a while first before I take a position against it.

TheExaminer

Haha, I kinda left this forum after Ixalan (horrible, awful set) was released and everyone was complaining.
Now, when I saw how amazing and beautiful Rivals was, I came back, hoping to get into nice and pleasant environment.
What did I get instead? Half of the discussions is all mean and stupid things about developers and almost no appreciation...

bk1234

She's powerful --insanely broken, powerful-- but whether or not she's useful like that is another story. 

I've played more than 50 matches with her so far --- she's great for aggro and cool gimmicky things, but I would advise players on a budget to get Angrath first. We have plenty of green aggro -- 

When I tried to build her around objectives, I finished with Angrath with better life percentage every time. 

A well balanced PW has abilities that offer you a robust experience, she doesn't offer much for control -- I like Angrath a lot better for events, as his abilities allow you to fill holes in your deck. 

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

all of these walkers, as scary as they may be...are still nothing in comparison to the overpowered insanity that was Gideon1 and his bff Runaway Carriage

Please, don't remind us.  That was sheer and utter madness.  You're going to start a wonderful tangent debate as to which was the most OP combo.

Remember N1 with Undergrowth Champion and Mantle of Webs?

Or Harness the Storm and Devil's Playground?

ah, yes I remember those days quite well

bk1234

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Gunmix25 said:

Coilbox said:

Well... in my opinion... and i hope i wont get bitten for saying this... Yes, you can use her third ability almost every turn, but it's actually not THAT strong, i mean, it's not like... game decissive if you know what i mean...

You draw 2 cards per creature and gain a good amount of mana... If you only have one token on the table you will draw two cards and then gain a bit of mana... So yeah, you will be able to use it every turn if your tokens survive, but it's not gonna give you the match straight away... is it?

Yeah, i agree it's a good skill... but taking Koth as an example... once you trigger his first skill once, you can do it nearly every turn, and after 2 easy cascades his second and third go straight after...
And also, consider Koth mana gains when he connects 3 or 4 red gems...

I dont think it's such a fail to say they are just clueless. Im playing a lot with Huatli in the last days trying to build some powerful decks, and yeah, as I said, its powerful, but it wont just give you the victory straight away.

I agree with this assessment.  Your example of Koth is an excellent one to boot. Heck, we ALL know too well just how often he is in TG and why.we have also seen post after post after post about how Koth should be nerfed.  I have learned to fight him, and yes his first loyalty is annoying and often gives him a constant edge on me. But like any good player, I have learned to adapt and often use sideboard cards in case I face him... the latter is a joke... I always face him in TG sheesh. 

Anyways,  I went back and played Kiora again and found that with her I can just as easily steam roll over the opponent as i do with H2. We don't use loyalty 3 that often because spam the tinykitty out of loyalty 1 and because of green being green we reach that very often. Now her loyalty 2 brought in ridiculous high costed creatures with an average one swap's worth of casting. I was using this almost every turn. Loyalty 3 is a no brainer... 32/32 defender with reach.... seriously? Nah. Kiora is a monster of proportions and yet we have all learned to work with her... as we have with Samut and as we will with H2. 

all of these walkers, as scary as they may be...are still nothing in comparison to the overpowered insanity that was Gideon1 and his bff Runaway Carriage

Please, don't remind us.  That was sheer and utter madness.  You're going to start a wonderful tangent debate as to which was the most OP combo.

Remember N1 with Undergrowth Champion and Mantle of Webs?

Or Harness the Storm and Devil's Playground?

ah, yes I remember those days quite well

Mine was Kiora with Undergrowth Champion and Stratus Walk. So sick. 

FindingHeart8

bken1234 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

Remember N1 with Undergrowth Champion and Mantle of Webs?

Or Harness the Storm and Devil's Playground?

ah, yes I remember those days quite well

Mine was Kiora with Undergrowth Champion and Stratus Walk. So sick. 

well that's just rude

babar3355

bken1234 said:

She's powerful --insanely broken, powerful-- but whether or not she's useful like that is another story. 

I've played more than 50 matches with her so far --- she's great for aggro and cool gimmicky things, but I would advise players on a budget to get Angrath first. We have plenty of green aggro -- 

When I tried to build her around objectives, I finished with Angrath with better life percentage every time. 

A well balanced PW has abilities that offer you a robust experience, she doesn't offer much for control -- I like Angrath a lot better for events, as his abilities allow you to fill holes in your deck. 

Well, I have played neither of them.  But from a card access standpoint, I would say white is possibly the strongest control color. (Excellent creature control and support removal). Green is by far the best when it comes to mana ramp.  The only thing AJ2 was really missing was consistent card draw.  Seems to me like H2 fixes this problem in spades.  It's hard for me to believe I can't put together a highly tuned and balanced deck that will also be oppressively strong when piloted by a player.

Then again, apparently we don't care how broken something is as long as Greg can't pilot it.