Hualti, Radiant Champion and the clueless designers from Oktagon

DumasAG

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

I don't think they nerfed any of the walkers to my knowledge.  The only cards I've heard actually getting nerfed are creatures like Baral.

If I remember correctly, the First ability of the Origins walkers was 6 loyalty (Chandra's was 3).
They nerfed it to 9 because of complaints that the AI was spamming them every turn due to cascades (see? not a new issue).

Jace's 2nd was originally better too, apparently, although that nerf was before even my time.

They also changed the order of evergreens in Gideon's leveling, and tweaked Chandra's damage a few times, with possibly more changes I don't remember.  In the early days Hibernium was very concerned with balance (Seriously, it was very different back then)

Didn't Kiora get a change at one point as well?

FindingHeart8

octal9 said:

@Laeuftbeidir @FindingHeart8
no, this is old sorin (edit: also, his loadout was x/3/3 - I can't remember if x was 5, 7, or 8 creatures):

 

anyway, @Gunmix25 is pretty spot-on. H2, while admittedly strong, absolutely struggles against heavy removal decks.

thanks for sharing that@octal9

that's not nearly as good as the current Sorin

andrewvanmarle

Laeuftbeidir said:

andrewvanmarle said:

@GrizzoMtGPQ
First of all, even if you don't like something oktagon has or hasnt done, don't be disrespectful about it.

Second what do tokens have to do with this? (am I missing something?)

Third, to get to the gist of your post: though she is powerfull she isn't gamebreaking in my opinion: the first power does nothing to improve the boardstate or life . the second and third power are quite dependent on the first power, they are not as strong by themselves. This makes her total power strong, but dependent on factors and thus vulnurable.

Level 4: Create a support with “Whenever you match 3 or more White or Green gems, gain X Loyalty where X is 3 plus the number of creatures and creature reinforcements you control.”
-> tokens are easy to reinforce en masse


I disagree: the second and mostly the third ability are extremly strong by themselves (green and card draw is always extremly dangerous by design. Kiora, reason, Rashmi? Card advantage +mana = boom). The only reason why it's somehow balanced is due to the fact that you can activate her ultimate only once - but the first ability makes it reliable to be used every turn.

Edit :
@FindingHeart8
As far as I know sorin spawned tokens in his original form. Kiora was nerfed (in a very good way), I recall Jace 1 and koth were different, too

Ah, I missed that about the reinforcements, nice!

Card draw has always been a part of green in one way or another: Nissa 1 (first ability) reason to believe, Nissa's renewal etc

Her Ult gives card advantage  and mana, but compared to  other PW's that is not a game ender (J2 or ob or nissa3)

she get stopped by support removal or gemchangers (blue's storm the vault for instance)

And she pays this by effectively having one power less. That first power does nothing to change the game state.

Sirchombli

I can see the issue. Pws that are loyalty generating machines can get out of hand . Koth, for instance , would be nothing without his first ability and Greg's dumb luck cascading off of gem destruction . The fact that h2 generates actual loyalty rather than a work around like koth may have been a misstep , but I'm in the same boat as most people. We've just got to learn to play against her. We're in the habit of crying nerf about everything in this game. That's how ixalan happened . We don't want more ixalans. Why don't we just enjoy smashing each other's faces with powerful stuff instead of complaining about it constantly. Powerful stuff is fun. 

Mainloop25

Sirchombli said:

 Why don't we just enjoy smashing each other's faces with powerful stuff instead of complaining about it constantly. Powerful stuff is fun. 

There's a balance. Can't tip the scale too far one way or the other. Smashing faces is fun sure, but it's the opposite amount of fun to get your face smashed when that stuff goes unchecked.

GrizzoMtGPQ

Here's the start of an early turn. Animations are taking about 10 seconds. Annoying but not overly so.



This didn't stop. Nope. Here we are minutes later and animations are taking on the order of 30-45 seconds. Every other gem change/match.



I set set my phone down and finished eating. Figured I'll have to just quit but I got lucky and it stopped. Here's the loyalty I'm getting, not per turn, per gem match.


//Censored In-Game Player Name -Brigby

This is fine. Everything is fine.

Rhasget

Is this possible just because of Roil since it spawns on landfalls? Or can it be replicated with other token generators?

I have played against H2 twice sofar and despite having Roil on the board, nothing actually happened on Gregs side. Only triggered 1st ability as soon as it was able.

andrewvanmarle

Mainloop25 said:

Sirchombli said:

 Why don't we just enjoy smashing each other's faces with powerful stuff instead of complaining about it constantly. Powerful stuff is fun. 

There's a balance. Can't tip the scale too far one way or the other. Smashing faces is fun sure, but it's the opposite amount of fun to get your face smashed when that stuff goes unchecked.

It's a choice actually either you both fight with spiked basball bats or you both fight with fluffy down pillows.

I like spikes and i'll accept the fight where i lose and lose hard. A little blood doesn't hurt anyone 

It's not about balance in the sense that for instance cycling skews the balance heavily in favor of the player because the ai doesnt know how to use that effect.


@ grizzo: zendikars roil is broken. that is a separate issue from huatli, we shouldnt conflate these to topics.

GrizzoMtGPQ

@andrewvanmarle challenge accepted. I'll see if I can break her in a similar fashion without Zendikar Roil.

andrewvanmarle

@GrizzoMtGPQ

deal!

And in standard format!

ironer

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

@andrewvanmarle challenge accepted. I'll see if I can break her in a similar fashion without Zendikar Roil.

Gather the pack, Itlimoc, embalm/eternalize. You'll have a lot of creatures almost for free.

octal9

ironer said:

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

@andrewvanmarle challenge accepted. I'll see if I can break her in a similar fashion without Zendikar Roil.

Gather the pack, Itlimoc, embalm/eternalize. You'll have a lot of creatures almost for free.

hangarback & god pharaoh's gift could be fun in a GY deck. (edit: and the key piece of the puzzle - reclaim)

Gunmix25

@GrizzoMtGPQ  I tried using various token generators and I came to two conclusions 

Barring Zendikars roil which we all know is bugged...

1. Most tokens in green and white are created once per turn or via activation gem. All can be reinforced per se via Procession mythic from AMK. 

2. If you haven't won by the time you hit 20 to 30 damage per creature on avg via reinforcement or buffs. You are either purposefully  dragging out the match,  thus dragging out the effect, needlessly. Or your creatures are disabled. I have always won my matches long before my tokens get that high.

My highest loyalty take in a turn was around 150 loyalty in one turn. That was because I was facing A1 and he kept disabling everything I had left and right. When he finally exhusted his loyalty for loyalty1 and ran out of supports and spells and creatures that disabled as well as stopped destroying my supports. My next turn I dropped a loyalty 1 and boom. Of course it was useless by that point because my next attack that turn ended the match. 

FindingHeart8

octal9 said:

ironer said:

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

@andrewvanmarle challenge accepted. I'll see if I can break her in a similar fashion without Zendikar Roil.

Gather the pack, Itlimoc, embalm/eternalize. You'll have a lot of creatures almost for free.

hangarback & god pharaoh's gift could be fun in a GY deck.

except the two cards don't combo off each other.  Hangarback needs to be destroyed to get the extra thopters, and God Pharoah's gift exiles the creature after it brings it back from the graveyard.  No extra thopters

octal9

whoops, Reclaim is supposed to be in there too. edited

Rhasget

octal9 said:

ironer said:

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

@andrewvanmarle challenge accepted. I'll see if I can break her in a similar fashion without Zendikar Roil.

Gather the pack, Itlimoc, embalm/eternalize. You'll have a lot of creatures almost for free.

hangarback & god pharaoh's gift could be fun in a GY deck. (edit: and the key piece of the puzzle - reclaim)

Journey to Eternity with Hangarback then?

Mainloop25

andrewvanmarle said:

Mainloop25 said:

Sirchombli said:

 Why don't we just enjoy smashing each other's faces with powerful stuff instead of complaining about it constantly. Powerful stuff is fun. 

There's a balance. Can't tip the scale too far one way or the other. Smashing faces is fun sure, but it's the opposite amount of fun to get your face smashed when that stuff goes unchecked.

It's a choice actually either you both fight with spiked basball bats or you both fight with fluffy down pillows.

I like spikes and i'll accept the fight where i lose and lose hard. A little blood doesn't hurt anyone 

It's not about balance in the sense that for instance cycling skews the balance heavily in favor of the player because the ai doesnt know how to use that effect.


@ grizzo: zendikars roil is broken. that is a separate issue from huatli, we shouldnt conflate these to topics.

There aren't just two ways to win, otherwise eveyone would just play Koth and Samut every game. Trust me I love my Omni loop decks  but it doesn't mean the fact that I can make them is good for the game. And let's not bring cycling into it, there have been novels written about what's wrong with cycling at this point! 

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

andrewvanmarle said:

Mainloop25 said:

Sirchombli said:

 Why don't we just enjoy smashing each other's faces with powerful stuff instead of complaining about it constantly. Powerful stuff is fun. 

There's a balance. Can't tip the scale too far one way or the other. Smashing faces is fun sure, but it's the opposite amount of fun to get your face smashed when that stuff goes unchecked.

It's a choice actually either you both fight with spiked basball bats or you both fight with fluffy down pillows.

I like spikes and i'll accept the fight where i lose and lose hard. A little blood doesn't hurt anyone 

It's not about balance in the sense that for instance cycling skews the balance heavily in favor of the player because the ai doesnt know how to use that effect.


@ grizzo: zendikars roil is broken. that is a separate issue from huatli, we shouldnt conflate these to topics.

There aren't just two ways to win, otherwise eveyone would just play Koth and Samut every game. Trust me I love my Omni loop decks  but it doesn't mean the fact that I can make them is good for the game. And let's not bring cycling into it, there have been novels written about what's wrong with cycling at this point! 

Before we can determine indisputably what cards are "good" or "bad" for the game as is, I think the mtgpq community has to be able to collectively agree on what the ideal for mtgpq is.  The fact that there is a divide is probably a reason behind none of these cards actually being changed.

Mainloop25

Well i think that the only reason Omniscience was never changed was because of its rarity. If it were even a mythic, the outcry would be near pre-nerf Baral levels.

Enygma6

And also that its worst enablers (Baral, Rashmi, Whir, Refurbish) have all rotated out of Standard.