Emergency Bans

madwren

Regardless of nerfs being needed or not, it's clear is that for all the underwhelming power of Ixalan, Rivals is a step up across the board.

Mainloop25

If Path of Discovery didn't trigger on tokens, it would be about as useful as an uncommon is supposed to be. 

Gormhaus

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

Try it with Zendikar Roil and anything that does mass gem change to green, Hour of Promise/Animist Awakening/etc.

Just did this with zendikars roil and wildgrowth walker. It works and takes forever with a bunch of gem changers.

GrizzoMtGPQ

This combo is not hard to set up. You put in Animist or whatever cheapo gem changer you have handy. There are so many now - Thunderbird Migration, Hour of Promise, Animist Awakening, Beneath the Sands, Desert of the Indomitable - or whatever of the myriad of gem switching supports you have at hand. Then put in Path to Discovery and Zendikar. Zendikar is going to trigger a lot when that gem switcher goes off. I'm not convinced it's doing the wrong thing, our definition of landfall may not jibe with what the computer is using. When a lot of gems change you get a fair number of match 4's. Then zendikar trips bringing out tokens. Which trips Path of Discovery for each token that comes out which changes some gems to green, which trips a landfall or gives you match 5 chance and starts it over again.

Try this specific deck and see what you think:

Zendikar Roil
Path of Discovery
Hour of Promise
+ 7 other cards of whatever you want

(Here's my full deck list but it is way high roller for demonstrating this)

Zendikar Roil
Path of Discovery
Hour of Promise
Animist Awakening
Sandworm Convergence
Shefet Monitor
Gaea's Revenge
Reason
Slaughter Pact
Sorcerer Spyglass

I don't call for that may bans, do I? I was on the original Baral ban call because he caused AI loops. Same thing here. I don't like cards that cause turn 1 wins. You can definitely do that with the cards I've mentioned. And I usually only call for bans when I can demonstrate a problem. I did it with Baral AFTER I bought him and I was glad of the nerf. This card is a problem and will remain so long as we have access to Zendikar Roil because even if it is "fixed" to somehow produce fewer tokens, it will still do as I described.

You'll get unfairly rolled by the AI some time on turn one and maybe then you will change your mind.

Gunmix25

GrizzoMtGPQ           what about Etali though? That's not a 1st turn win. The card it pulls could very well be a 3 mana card or could very well be a 24 mana card. Granted it bites when it steals a high costed card to use against you but to me it is no more frustrating than when someone drops Gaea's revenge. And let me tell you, I often quit if I see G.R. hit early.

And no you do not call for bans all the time. Grumble a lot maybe But not calling for bans.        

GrizzoMtGPQ

Alright Etali might be jumping the gun. Let me mess with it some more.

FindingHeart8

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

This combo is not hard to set up. You put in Animist or whatever cheapo gem changer you have handy. There are so many now - Thunderbird Migration, Hour of Promise, Animist Awakening, Beneath the Sands, Desert of the Indomitable - or whatever of the myriad of gem switching supports you have at hand. Then put in Path to Discovery and Zendikar. Zendikar is going to trigger a lot when that gem switcher goes off. I'm not convinced it's doing the wrong thing, our definition of landfall may not jibe with what the computer is using. When a lot of gems change you get a fair number of match 4's. Then zendikar trips bringing out tokens. Which trips Path of Discovery for each token that comes out which changes some gems to green, which trips a landfall or gives you match 5 chance and starts it over again.

Try this specific deck and see what you think:

Zendikar Roil
Path of Discovery
Hour of Promise
+ 7 other cards of whatever you want

(Here's my full deck list but it is way high roller for demonstrating this)

Zendikar Roil
Path of Discovery
Hour of Promise
Animist Awakening
Sandworm Convergence
Shefet Monitor
Gaea's Revenge
Reason
Slaughter Pact
Sorcerer Spyglass

I don't call for that may bans, do I? I was on the original Baral ban call because he caused AI loops. Same thing here. I don't like cards that cause turn 1 wins. You can definitely do that with the cards I've mentioned. And I usually only call for bans when I can demonstrate a problem. I did it with Baral AFTER I bought him and I was glad of the nerf. This card is a problem and will remain so long as we have access to Zendikar Roil because even if it is "fixed" to somehow produce fewer tokens, it will still do as I described.

You'll get unfairly rolled by the AI some time on turn one and maybe then you will change your mind.

Hmmmmmmmm, alright I'm listening.  I'm yet to face this combo.  However I'm generally against nerfing unless it's a new version of the Omniloop mechanic.  Is that what you're saying this is?

Abenjes

GrizzoMtGPQ said:

Alright Etali might be jumping the gun. Let me mess with it some more.

Etali is definitely not overpowered, the card it pulls goes to last place and then is not cast until next turn.

while it in your hand it is subject to all of the various ways to affect the last card in your hand. These are many.

I'm more worried about Angrath, overall the basic deck design for him seems to destroy any fun when playing against him

Gunmix25

Abenjes said:

I'm more worried about Angrath, overall the basic deck design for him seems to destroy any fun when playing against him

I have not encountered him yet, could you elaborate?

andrewvanmarle

wereotter said:

andrewvanmarle said:

wereotter said:

And this is the problem with Origins always staying in standard.

I don't mind having a base set to always choose from, but the cards from Ixalan weren't designed to ever see the cards in Origins in standard, and as such broken interactions will exist.

Actually that's'a weird conclusion to make: instead of criticising  the devs for not taking origings into account ( the one constand in standard) you critique origins being a constant.

I'd'say that it's'a flaw in the design process to not take origins into account.

That would imply that they do more than copy and past some cards into the set. Though in all honesty I'm not sure how they could have worked explore to be anything different than it is without nerfing the mechanic into uselessness by not having tokens trigger it. So Zendikar's Roil comboing off Path of Discovery was kind of inevitable.

What about specifying what kind of token?

Or more to the point exclude a type? 

Abenjes

Gunmix25 said:

Abenjes said:

I'm more worried about Angrath, overall the basic deck design for him seems to destroy any fun when playing against him

I have not encountered him yet, could you elaborate?

Angrath, the Flame-Chained

Level 4: Deal 2 damage to your opponent and find 2 Treasures. Then, your opponent discards a card.

Level 4: Gain control of target creature that costs 15 or less until end of turn. It gains Haste and “This creature is destroyed at the end of turn”.

Level 4: Create a support with: “Whenever a card enters your opponent’s graveyard from anywhere, deal 6 damage to your opponent.”

essentially you are packing his deck with discard and destruction. while you get to his ult. very OB and lili1 like but worse as the ult is whenever a card goes to the graveyard from anywhere.

Maybe I'm overreacting but if any one has a strategy to deal with him let me know

Corn_Noodles

There are cards to prevent planeswalker abilities from being activated.

ElfNeedsFood

Yeah, the loop with Zendikar’s and Path is a tad amusing but the support eventually self-destructs.  I got a 55x loop.  The fix probably is to remove tokens from the criteria. 

Gideon

It doesn’t need a fix. In what capacity is anyone playing this deck? Are you actually using it for an event? Probably not. The only reason you would make this deck is to have fun or troll with it. Once you’ve had your fun just dismantle it. No reason to go all buck wild with the ban hammer.

Theros

Anything can be overpowered under legacy rules like the deck mentioned above. A card is not be considered for nerf if it is manageable under standard rules. I don't Hour of Promise yet to test possible scenarios under standard

GrizzoMtGPQ

That is not a legacy deck. That's a standard one. You can certainly play this deck in events. Do you want to win on turn one or two?

I really don't bother much with building legacy decks. Once I got Omni they all collapsed into the same basic configuration. With legacy it's just raw power. Unless I'm trying for something funky. I think I can finally build my Infinite Akoum Firebird deck now.

khurram

Infinite Akoum Firebirds?
I am intrigued.

DBJones

Me too! Dowsing Dagger and large amounts of gem destruction perhaps? I'm thinking it's a Samut build with Gather the Pack and Growing Rites.

Gormhaus

ElfNeedsFood said:

Yeah, the loop with Zendikar’s and Path is a tad amusing but the support eventually self-destructs.  I got a 55x loop.  The fix probably is to remove tokens from the criteria. 

Exactly this. Its fun but hardly fool proof. Lost as many matches as i won.

tfg76

It's a combo that requires three to four pieces to (maybe) instantly win. I think having that in the game is healthy. We should be able to have both combo decks, beatdown decks and control decks be viable. If you pack some support destruction, you shouldn't be hurt too often by this type of deck in the hands of the AI.