400 Purple Crystal Elite Pack Discussion

Krishna

@Nalthazar informative! I highly doubt I will become The Mayor of Valuetown with a few Elite Pack pulls. I could make it to the City Council but even then unlikely.

Brigby

I'm just glad I can officially call them Elite Packs now

Krishna

wait... is that a confirmation that drop rates were intentionally unbalanced? they said MUCH lower chance of getting a dupe

Nalthazar

@Brigby I don't suppose it is possible to know approximately what the likelihood will be of getting dupes from Elite Packs when the Ixalan update rolls out and is live? I would imagine that the likelihood will change based on how many cards you already own from the pack, but lets say that you have all but one card from the pack, will it be reasonably likely to get that last card you are missing or will the chances still be against you?

I also saw that the name is being changed for the packs, so if this is just something I should wait for the blogpost about because there is going to be a more detailed post about what is going to be changed there I can patiently wait like a good boy. 

Gilesclone

The devil is in the details but I’m very optimistic this will be a nice improvement.

Gunmix25

Krishna said:

wait... is that a confirmation that drop rates were intentionally unbalanced? they said MUCH lower chance of getting a dupe

More like added code to take into consideration that a player has a card already in an elite pack. You still have a chance of a dupe but less likely. I've a feeling this is basically a flip. Now dupes are uncommon (thus very high orb hikes will be uncommon) and newer cards more common. 

andrewvanmarle

Gunmix25 said:

Krishna said:

wait... is that a confirmation that drop rates were intentionally unbalanced? they said MUCH lower chance of getting a dupe

More like added code to take into consideration that a player has a card already in an elite pack. You still have a chance of a dupe but less likely. I've a feeling this is basically a flip. Now dupes are uncommon (thus very high orb hikes will be uncommon) and newer cards more common. 

What is an orb hike?

span_argoman

Nalthazar said:

span_argoman said:

Nalthazar said:

Jewels aren't endgame currency exactly, they are more of a way to ensure mythic pulls since the drop rate in this game is so low. They were also implemented to remove certain mythics as rewards so that mythics would be more broadly available to the whole player base. The more cards you add to your collection, the more you can actually play with the mechanics designed by the devs and play the game thoroughly. In response to what you are saying though, I think there is a necessary change that would need to happen to the purple crystal packs.

120 crystal packs can only give rares, but no dupes
400 crystal packs can only give mythics/masterpieces

Would you please first do the math and calculate how much more valuable that makes Elite Packs compared to Premium Packs? Throwing out numbers based on what one feels is right usually just reflects what one is willing to pay for something rather than what value might actually be better for the sustained health of the game and community in general.

Do you realise the consequences of having distorted options in a game? It's like New Perspectives and Drake Haven in our meta now except without the grindy downside. Everyone would have to go for it cause no other option compares.

Nalthazar said:

wereotter said:

Here's the problem with your proposal as I see it:

Let's say there's an elite pack with four mythics I do own and four masterpieces I do not own. Under your proposal, it means I've spent 400 jewels for a guaranteed masterpiece while another person who doesn't own all four mythics spends the same amount of currency and doesn't have that same guarantee. It directly contributes to the problem of those who already have getting more than those who don't.

This was already something that could theoretically be abused under the old reroll system, but now that booster crafting is a reality and having every mythic rare card on offer is much more likely than it was, I think it would be unfair to allow people to have that kind of access to the most powerful cards in the game.

To your first point, I think that if someone has earned all of the mythics in a pack, then they deserve to be able to complete the pack if they have grinded for the pinkies. That is basically what Booster Crafting does. 

To your second point, masterpieces aren't significantly more powerful than mythics apart from Omniscience and arguably Platinum Angel. Most masterpieces are largely niche cards that can be fun to use in decks, but aren't strictly and/or significantly better than their rare/mythic counterparts. Finally, lets pretend for a second that they are the most powerful cards in the game, why make it so that people wouldn't have at least attainable access to the game's most powerful cards? That is another issue altogether, but why release a card into the pool if it isn't going to be available for people to play with. It is nice to have cards to chase, as that is what keeps most of us slavering at the grind, but if you don't have a reliable way to get those cards you are chasing, then you are going to burn out and lose interest in the game.

Sure they deserve the chance to be able to collect the remaining cards which they have not collected. That is very different from them deserving a chance to collect all the remaining cards at a discounted price relative to the rest of the community.

The cards are available for people to play, like all other cards in the game. They're just harder to get. Stop making it seem like there's no way to get the Masterpieces. There are. People just want an easier time to get them because they've already managed to get the other cards. There's no end to it. People will always want more for less as long as they can get away with it.

I'm not complaining about Masterpieces not being easy enough to get. My beef is that I don't think you should be able to get a duplicate from an Elite Pack given how much time it takes to get the purple crystals. This isn't a game with monetary value and on top of that, don't forget that it is a game. Games should be fun. Games should feel rewarding to the people playing them. Asking to not get duplicates from a pack like an elite pack isn't much to ask for

No I'm not going to crunch pointless numbers to see how much more valuable it would make elite packs over premium packs. I honestly don't care. Elite packs take a lot of time to gather the resources for, while premium packs are easily earned. The drop rate is already low in my opinion, but it is still manageable. Given that this is a free-to-play game, the devs need to be paid somehow, and having a lower drop rate on desirable cards inspires the players to pay money. I understand that and I am fine with it. 

What you are getting to is a point of contention with design, but not about duplicate mythics, which is what I started this thread for. If you don't think it is fair for a player to complete their collection due to the power of the cards, then you should start a thread about the power level of cards. If you don't have an issue with the power level of cards, then there is no problem with a player having multiple avenues to complete their collections. 

I understand, which I guess means there's nothing more for the two of us to discuss. You dislike the feeling of disappointment that a duplicate from an Elite Pack, and so you want that to disappear. It's non-negotiable. It's something that really affects your enjoyment of the game. Even other ways of mitigating the disappointment raised in this topic don't seem to be an option to you. It's ok, we can agree to disagree.

I never said it's not fair for a player to complete their collection so I would appreciate if you didn't try to twist my words to imply that. Unless you would like to point out where my words implied that, and if they did I will apologise. My point is that there are ways to complete one's collection. Maybe it takes longer than some people like, but it's still there. And especially with Booster Crafting around, the inability to complete one's collection is really only more relevant to Masterpieces.

Kinesia said:

There shouldn't be dupes because purple crystals take effort to get and any disappointment is bad.

This is the key point. The _details_ on what packs should be or the costs, that is totally separate to the main point and should be worked out by the developers after doing maths!

We say the packs should be "all rare", "all mythic", etc because that removes the _other_ point of disappointment.

We _guess_ at reasonable costs but all that is up to the devs, the only thing we _care_ about is that they remove the disappointment aspect somehow.

I must say I used to champion no dupes in Elite Packs for the very reason you stated, back when Elite Packs and Jewels were newly introduced. I just don't really a need for it anymore when all dupes convert into Orbs which will lead to guaranteed new cards.

And I personally think the disappointment could have been alleviated by increased Orbs for dupes from Elite Packs. Although we're still waiting on the details of the new Elite Collection from Oktagon, it sounds like there is the chance for dupes. Which means that difference in outcome from getting a new card vs getting a dupe still exists, even if it is at a lower chance. And as long as that gap between the possible outcomes is there, people will still bemoan the chance of getting a duplicate.

Just look at all the people posting that they would only open an Elite Pack where they don't have any of the cards. Any non-zero probability is already too high for them. Having 1 out of 7 Mythics is already too high a chance for them to spend their Jewels on. It's the absolute difference in a good and worst outcome that bothers people. Even though never spending your Jewels means you will never realise their value. I can't say whether it is because people were accustomed to non-dupes from the old reroll policy or if it is cause these players are extremely risk-adverse.

And my way of guessing at what costs are reasonable are based on comparing the options we have for spending Crystals in the game. With the introduction of Booster Crafting and Orbs, we now have a common currency to value Orbs, Crystals and reward Packs. This enables one so inclined to be able to compare the values of the various resources.

Additionally, we have a means in the game of converting Crystals to Jewels which is Trial of the Planes. Any disparity in the value of Crystals and Jewels directly affects whether it is worth spending the Crystals and one's time to play Trial of the Planes. Too big a disparity in favour of Jewels can make Trial of the Planes go from a good-to-play to a must play. And I'm not too big a fan of making more things must-plays. Maybe it's just me.

But the comparison is like how Big Boxes of old were all anyone would ever buy since they gave the most value per Crystal spent. There's no option on what one should do with their Crystals. At this point I feel like Trial of the Planes is still a choice for players (though admittedly a less attractive option after Booster Crafting and the reroll policy change). But shift the disparity in value of Jewels too much and Trial of the Planes becomes another must-play like Training Grounds. I just don't want the game to only present false choices to the players.

Anyway at this point we should probably just wait for the blog post with the details on the new Elite Collection to see what to expect.

andrewvanmarle said:

Gunmix25 said:

Krishna said:

wait... is that a confirmation that drop rates were intentionally unbalanced? they said MUCH lower chance of getting a dupe

More like added code to take into consideration that a player has a card already in an elite pack. You still have a chance of a dupe but less likely. I've a feeling this is basically a flip. Now dupes are uncommon (thus very high orb hikes will be uncommon) and newer cards more common. 

What is an orb hike?

I think he was referring to Drewster's idea of making dupes from Elite Packs give more Orbs. Since dupes are less likely, it would also be less likely that they would consider tweaking the result of getting a dupe. But they did say they will continue to monitor Elite Packs and Jewels, so we'll see.

Gunmix25

andrewvanmarle said:

Gunmix25 said:

Krishna said:

wait... is that a confirmation that drop rates were intentionally unbalanced? they said MUCH lower chance of getting a dupe

More like added code to take into consideration that a player has a card already in an elite pack. You still have a chance of a dupe but less likely. I've a feeling this is basically a flip. Now dupes are uncommon (thus very high orb hikes will be uncommon) and newer cards more common. 

What is an orb hike?

OK, so say you're new to the game or are a gold ranked player. You don't get as many jewels and thus as much opportunities as platinum players do at opening elite packs. the system the way it is, benefits primarily platinum players. These players can experience what I call an Orb hike, or a significant gap of orbs earned in favor of Platinum players vs the much lower ROI in Dupes to Orbs earned by lower ranks.  Thus inadvertently the dupe problem in Elite packs also contribute to a growing gap of more elite players being able to earn more orbs than ranks below them which allows them to craft at a higher rate.

Enygma6

Here's a thought on rewards/compensation for pulling dupes from an Elite pack:
Have the duplicate card give out it's full value in Orbs only, not split half between Orbs and Runes.
Or maybe a partial refund of Jewels (25-50% of the pack cost).

Personally I would prefer a non-dupe experience, but this would at least guarantee the player can still go craft a new card of the next lower rarity value.  
Saving up 400 jewels only to pull the equivalent of half a rare is not something I find rewarding.  
And players with collections comprising a majority of cards from an Elite pack are more likely to already have an excess of Runes.

IM_CARLOS

Just make MP craftable for let's say 10.000 orbs  and 400 jewels. So you still need a lot  of ressources to compete your collection, but It's possible.

I'm hoarding my jewels since change because I've 90% of the mystics and don't bury my jewels for 500 orbs.

Even with a new set it's odd because I already have 1500 jewels and 11k crystal, so I will get dupes this way or the other way.

My next goal is to collect every missing myth, but after the next goal would be MP. But this is out of reach. So I am out if nothing change.

And yes I paid a reasonable amount of time and cash, but the next step would take forever. I could even try to get "the one MP" if I want through elite packs. Because of rotation. And buying booster and earning orbs is also futile if you have every card below mp. 

bk1234

[MOD MIC ON] Please ensure all posts in this tread stay on topic. If you would like to participate in yet another decision about nerfing Omni, or cycing, or HUF -- you may do so here: 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/70320/omni-cycling-etc-not-400-unobtanium-pack#latest

Or here: 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/70084/please-nerf-cycling#latest

Or here: 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/70156/please-dont-nerf-cycling-or-5-reasons-why-cycling-is-great#latest

Or in one of these threads: 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/69919/reigning-in-the-power-of-omniscience#latest

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/69885/huf-omni#latest

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/69773/how-would-you-nerf-it-buff-it/p1

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/67110/hazorets-undying-fury/p1

Thanks for understanding!

[MOD MIC OFF]