MPQ at Marvel.com (Angel and Archangel) (12/12/17)

Sm0keyJ0e

@CaseyMalone since this is an obvious Vulture counter, can you describe how this will work? For example, enemy Vulture goes airborne. It's now your turn. I assume Archangel does X damage to Vulture and stuns him for 1 turn. 

The NEXT turn... is he still airborne (and generating AP) or back on the ground?

Rick_OShay

CaseyMalone said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

@CaseyMalone can you clarify what the interaction with characters that send opponents airborne to do damage when they land will be? For instance Nova's Rocket Man has come up: send the character airborne for 2 turns, do big damage when they land. If that "landing" condition gets intercepted by Archangel, does the damage not happen?

Hey hey! I can confirm that Nova's damage does not happen. 

Thanks all. 

Too bad the the Rocket Man damage will not happen, BUT:
Set Nova red to 3, when paired with Archangel, this now becomes a 6 red AP stun as long as you have black strikes on the board. 
Airborne enemies cannot be damaged, but since Archangel will passively stun them, you can damage them for 2 more turns.

@ThaRoadWarrior

DarthDeVo

@CaseyMalone

Could we also get clarification on two more scenarios? I just don't want to assume anything. You know what they say when you assume something... you take take something for granted or suppose it to be a fact, when it may actually not be one.

Like @TPF Alexis mentioned, if an enemy Colossus has sent one of his teammates airborne as part of Fastball Special, Archangel will stun that airborne enemy and do damage to them instead and no free power will trigger. Is that correct? 

Secondly, if Vulture goes airborne with Circling Prey, Archangel will stun and damage him, then when the stun is finished, Vulture will be grounded and need to spend another 6 black AP to go airborne again. Is that correct? 

jamesh

While I am happy to see the developers introduce counters to powerful characters, it'd be nice if they didn't do them in the form of unconditional passive powers.  Like Gambit before him, the only way you can counter Archangel's counter is to stun him, send him airborne or kill him.

There's no board condition or AP requirement you can control to prevent an enemy Archangel from knocking your Vulture out of the sky: it's just going to happen.  Quite apart from balance issues, mechanics like this are shallow and boring.

Piro_plock

jamesh said:

While I am happy to see the developers introduce counters to powerful characters, it'd be nice if they didn't do them in the form of unconditional passive powers.  Like Gambit before him, the only way you can counter Archangel's counter is to stun him, send him airborne or kill him.

There's no board condition or AP requirement you can control to prevent an enemy Archangel from knocking your Vulture out of the sky: it's just going to happen.  Quite apart from balance issues, mechanics like this are shallow and boring.

Then just don't use Vulture against him? 

fork1977

scottee said:

Anyone get numbers yet? Wondering if he's worth pursuing in LTs, especially over DD.

Ask and ye shall receive.  Text is paraphrase but accurate.

Level 450
HP: 53629

Y/B/P/R/G/B/Crit
89/705/75/82/626/548/354/4.3x

Blue Angle of Attack: (11AP
3 covers - 6702 damage 1 turn stun (Passive: 4703 dmg to airborne and stun 1 turn)
4 covers - 6702 damage 1 turn stun (Passive: 7055 dmg and 1 turn)
5 covers - 6702 damage 2 turn stun (Passive: 7055 dmg and 1 turn)

Green Enemy Down (10AP)
3 covers - 14701 damage and 2AP destroyed in 2 random pools)
4 covers - 14701 damage and 3AP destroyed in 2 random pools)
5 covers - 14701 damage and 4AP destroyed in 2 random pools)

Black Aerial Superiority (7AP)
3 covers - 2 4-turn CD tiles each deal 7174 damage.  When CD in play, NEITHER team can gain AP in that color
4 covers - 2 4-turn CD tiles each deal 7174 damage.  When CD in play, ENEMY TEAM cannot gain AP in that color
5 covers - 2 5-turn CD tiles each deal 7998 damage.  When CD in play, ENEMY TEAM cannot gain AP in that color

jamesh

Piro_plock said:

jamesh said:

While I am happy to see the developers introduce counters to powerful characters, it'd be nice if they didn't do them in the form of unconditional passive powers.  Like Gambit before him, the only way you can counter Archangel's counter is to stun him, send him airborne or kill him.

There's no board condition or AP requirement you can control to prevent an enemy Archangel from knocking your Vulture out of the sky: it's just going to happen.  Quite apart from balance issues, mechanics like this are shallow and boring.

Then just don't use Vulture against him? 

My point is that the design means that simply having Archangel on your team is a hard counter to Vulture: there is no other conditions to meet in order to activate the counter.  I'd prefer something that an opponent had some hope of avoiding.

When everyone was complaining about Rocket & Groot's strike tiles, do you think the game would have been better if they introduced a character with a passive that simply removed a few enemy strike tiles at the beginning of every turn?

As an example, something that might be thematically appropriate would be for the passive to only fire if you have 5 blue AP.  That's far enough below the cost of the blue active that an AI controlled Archangel is likely to satisfy the condition for a number of turns, and gives two options to combat Vulture early in the game (deny black or chase blue).  And coming from the other side of playing vulture against an AI controlled Archangel, you'd need to balance collecting black against denying blue.  And you'd need to continue denying blue while your Vulture was in the air, for fear of being knocked out of the sky and having to start collecting black all over again.

TPF Alexis

Rick OShay said:

TPF Alexis said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

@CaseyMalone
thank you for the answer. Would've been cool if it did both, but such is life

Hopefully that means it will also shut down Fastball Special.

Maybe, but if you are pursuing 5* Archangel to avenge all of the times you've faced Colossus throwing an ally at you, you may be better off to direct your vengeance elsewhere, ha!

It's not a big concern, but it sometimes is annoying. Also, it would be nice if it were consistent in how it interacted with different other powers.

Piro_plock

jamesh said:

My point is that the design means that simply having Archangel on your team is a hard counter to Vulture: there is no other conditions to meet in order to activate the counter.  I'd prefer something that an opponent had some hope of avoiding.

When everyone was complaining about Rocket & Groot's strike tiles, do you think the game would have been better if they introduced a character with a passive that simply removed a few enemy strike tiles at the beginning of every turn?

As an example, something that might be thematically appropriate would be for the passive to only fire if you have 5 blue AP.  That's far enough below the cost of the blue active that an AI controlled Archangel is likely to satisfy the condition for a number of turns, and gives two options to combat Vulture early in the game (deny black or chase blue).  And coming from the other side of playing vulture against an AI controlled Archangel, you'd need to balance collecting black against denying blue.  And you'd need to continue denying blue while your Vulture was in the air, for fear of being knocked out of the sky and having to start collecting black all over again.

This is not the first hard counter...
- 4* Jean Grey shuts down PX (and other characters that depend on invisibility) completely (AOE, destroying special tiles, punishing match-5s)
- BSSM negates strike tiles completely, shutting down OML, Blade, 4*R&G...

You've got a lot of other options to pick when fighting those hard counters. Just choose other characters.

Yoik

3/5/2 Arch Angel level 405

 

My initial thoughts in Apocalypse first few rounds was why did I spend CP trying to get him. He wasn’t really doing anything. The match damage is ok because he was boosted. But other than the odd stun I threw in there on the nodes it wasn’t really a good start. Maybe in PVE against goon nodes you could curtail their ap gen with his powers a bit but at the 5 star level in my experience so far you are not that worried about goons anyway these days

 

Then I started SG Pvp and put him with gambit and was then pleasantly surprised. They do not share any active powers on ap. So before long I was staring at all three of Angels powers flashing away at me. My 2 cover black is hitting for 18k after a countdown tile resolves from 4. During that time no team can earn ap on the colour you choose. So if you are clever enough you can really effect the opposition. ( Note if you choose red or purple, gambit does NOT still generate ap from his black )

My 5 covers in green will hit for 20k and it destroys 4 ap in 2 random enemy ap pools.

 

My 3 cover blue hits for 9 k and will stun for 1 turn. IF you have anyone on the other team who is airborne it will stun them for 1 turn and tick of for 6k  every turn also.

he has 76k health. All these numbers are boosted.

 

As a team with gambit with his ap gen and ap destroying plus angels ap destroy and ap negation the other team barely made it past 3 ap at a time in any colour. I was pleasantly surprised.

 

Ive not used him with anyone else but I don’t want to for the time being, im hoping I’ll get a few more covers for him just in case.

 

It’s a bit early to tell but I don’t think he is much past mid tier un boosted. Boosted and with gambit he is quite handy

fork1977

It’s a bit early to tell but I don’t think he is much past mid tier un boosted. Boosted and with gambit he is quite handy

He’s a counter 5* like BSS. He is AP and airborne denial. For the former he will be valuable no matter what, since only he, rogue and hood can really do easy AP denial. For the latter, he’s good antidote to vulture and riri.  Since more airborne will likely come,   He will have more value there. 

Finally, with 4 covers in black, AA shouldn’t preclude gambit generating AP

Yoik

Ah, I didn't realise his black changes in that aspect. That's definitely worth at least going to 4 in for me.

scottee

jamesh said:

When everyone was complaining about Rocket & Groot's strike tiles, do you think the game would have been better if they introduced a character with a passive that simply removed a few enemy strike tiles at the beginning of every turn?

BSSM negates all who rely on strike tiles. Most notably at the time was OML. But that includes R&G, Dakens, Blad3, half of Phoenix's strength.

I don't really think Vulture being countered by a single 5* is a big deal.

Cactus_Jack_87

According to photos that I saw on Line, here are here his stats at level 450, with each power at level 5:

Blue: 6702 damage, stun the target for 2 turns. Passive: 7055 for airborne targets, stun for one turn.

Green: 14701 damage, destroys 4 AP in 2 random enemy AP pools

Black: Creates 2 5-turn countdown tiles of a chosen color which each deal 7998 damage. Enemy can't generate AP in this color.

fork1977

Cactus_Jack_87 said:

According to photos that I saw on Line, here are here his stats at level 450, with each power at level 5:

Blue: 6702 damage, stun the target for 2 turns. Passive: 7055 for airborne targets, stun for one turn.

Green: 14701 damage, destroys 4 AP in 2 random enemy AP pools

Black: Creates 2 5-turn countdown tiles of a chosen color which each deal 7998 damage. Enemy can't generate AP in this color.

Already posted those earlier in this thread.  Full stats available

Cactus_Jack_87

fahq1977 said:

Cactus_Jack_87 said:

According to photos that I saw on Line, here are here his stats at level 450, with each power at level 5:

Blue: 6702 damage, stun the target for 2 turns. Passive: 7055 for airborne targets, stun for one turn.

Green: 14701 damage, destroys 4 AP in 2 random enemy AP pools

Black: Creates 2 5-turn countdown tiles of a chosen color which each deal 7998 damage. Enemy can't generate AP in this color.

Already posted those earlier in this thread.  Full stats available

Sorry, I didn't see that!

scottee

Doesn't look too impactful in the 5* tier. Only possible benefit is running with Gambit for extreme AP denial.

fork1977

scottee said:

Doesn't look too impactful in the 5* tier. Only possible benefit is running with Gambit for extreme AP denial.

He aligns well with Gambit, for colors and AP synergy. gambits purple and red restrictions do not hurt him. 

Hes not meta altering, but good blue green and black that are all useful with helpful passives that will become more useful when airborne hits 5*

TPF Alexis

He only does that to Opponents. His Teammates can go Airborne without problems.

Vold

i saw someone can use both angels at the same time