Competitive Guide to Tapping - Make Mainstream to Eliminate

beyonderbub

I’m about 250 points behind in final sub of new release event ending tonight. How early should I start final grind/tapping 4* node to take the lead?

The rockett

beyonderbub said:

I’m about 250 points behind in final sub of new release event ending tonight. How early should I start final grind/tapping 4* node to take the lead?

So you are 83 taps on the 3 point node behind.  This is a hard sub to do it on.  A lot of tappers in SL 1.9 brackets 1/2/3 failed big time.   In fact 2 major tappers almost missed top 10 because this sub takes some time.  

broll

AlexxKats thanks for yelling at me, I love you too

All I said was people in those threads kept bringing up that people fighting for wins based up were being ridiculous with feelings of entitlement.  Go back and look, they did.  I'm pointing out the people fighting this issue are just as entitled and there's a lot of bleed over between those calling Wins-based-whiners entitled and those whining-about-tapping.  

Pot calling kettle is all I'm saying.  

beyonderbub

The rockett said:

beyonderbub said:

I’m about 250 points behind in final sub of new release event ending tonight. How early should I start final grind/tapping 4* node to take the lead?

So you are 83 taps on the 3 point node behind.  This is a hard sub to do it on.  A lot of tappers in SL 1.9 brackets 1/2/3 failed big time.   In fact 2 major tappers almost missed top 10 because this sub takes some time.  

This above is why I read the forums. Thank you. I have been lucky in that this sub has been my fastest 4x clear with the event. Maybe I just got bad boards with the all goon nodes in last sub and struggled. I know what I’ll be doing during Monday Night Football

beyonderbub

broll said:

AlexxKats thanks for yelling at me, I love you too

From now on I’ll only be able to think of you as the last player picked in any fantasy draft. 

Daiches

beyonderbub said:

The rockett said:

beyonderbub said:

I’m about 250 points behind in final sub of new release event ending tonight. How early should I start final grind/tapping 4* node to take the lead?

So you are 83 taps on the 3 point node behind.  This is a hard sub to do it on.  A lot of tappers in SL 1.9 brackets 1/2/3 failed big time.   In fact 2 major tappers almost missed top 10 because this sub takes some time.  

This above is why I read the forums. Thank you. I have been lucky in that this sub has been my fastest 4x clear with the event. Maybe I just got bad boards with the all goon nodes in last sub and struggled. I know what I’ll be doing during Monday Night Football

83 taps + 12 taps per hour to break even. So if you go 2h early, you need to tap 95 times or almost 50 per hour and hope no one else catches you and taps a bit too. And then you still need perfect grind.

BoyWonder1914

Over the past year or so that playing optimally has become second nature, I used to look at all the people that were overclearing and laugh knowing that I would eventually pass them up. Now it seems I have a legitimate reason to be concerned when I'm fighting for placement. I'm currently torn on the issue. On one hand, I'm with the crowd who agrees that if someone generally wants to take the time out of their life to just tap away for several hours on end, then they deserve whatever rewards. There's certainly much more important things to life than staying on this eternal hamster wheel of getting every character champed and staying ahead of the release schedule. So if a person feels urge the spend so many hours on this game, who am I to judge. 

On the other hand, with the incredible amount of time, patience, and dedication that it takes to get into a flow of playing optimally where you can begin to expect T10 in any PVE rather than just hope for it, it kinda sucks that all that work can be made meaningless with enough people tapping away. It isn't easy to schedule your efforts on a game like this that allows you to both reap the top rewards AND still manage to have a life, so one is justified in being frustrated at having to again pick between the two. Since someone's already gone there, it's analogous to the PVP players that were frustrated at having to cough up 40 wins all of a sudden when they'd found a way to get the top PVP rewards with much less effort and time out of their schedule. Most people don't want to play this game like a 2nd job or some kind of obligation/responsibility, so being able to find that equilibrium is quite important. Being forced to complete with tappers shifts that equilibrium, because if there are enough tappers, then you have to tap too to not lose out. 

At the end of the day I've gotta side with the hand that wants to keep my life as is and give kudos to the tappers. Once your roster gets to a high enough of level, the only difference placement really makes is how quickly you cover a character. With and without vaulting, I've been able to get new characters fully covered during the season that they are the Shield Sim reward whether I've gotten 4 covers from their release event or 2. 

broll

So I've been very snarky in these topics, granted.  Let's try something more productive.

Rather than the points drop to 0 solution everyone suggests I'd like to suggest an alternative.  The same point values remain, but there's a point cap per sub.  Once you hit 20,000 let's say no battles are worth points.  That point value should be equal to optimal play.  

What would this do?  It would give people tinykittyed by time slices an alternative path to compete for placement rather than just being out of luck.  

What about ties?  Just dropping to 0 has the same problem and ties are currently solved by first person to achieve, it would probably stay that way.

broll

aesthetocyst said:

broll said:

All I said was people in those threads kept bringing up that people fighting for wins based up were being ridiculous with feelings of entitlement.  Go back and look, they did.  I'm pointing out the people fighting this issue are just as entitled and there's a lot of bleed over between those calling Wins-based-whiners entitled and those whining-about-tapping.  

So people objecting to playing more for the same rewards are continuing to object to playing more for the same rewards?

Looks like "consistency" to me.

It is sure, but that 'consistency' is actively locking out people who are 'consistently' tinykittied by existing bad systems.  My push for these has absolutely nothing to do with wanting vets to play more or get less rewards, but about allowing people who have glass ceilings preventing them from competing to be able to join the race.

maguirenumber6

Someone please enlighten me: how do you "start early"? 

LifeofAgony

Under non-tapping “optimal” play, your grind should start as close to sub end as possible (30-60 minutes depending on CL level and roster).  Starting early means beginning before that determined time.

So if your optimal grind time is 45 minutes from end of sub, you could start at 90 minutes out to tap a node then do usual grind starting at say 40 minutes left.

maguirenumber6

LifeofAgony said:

Under non-tapping “optimal” play, your grind should start as close to sub end as possible (30-60 minutes depending on CL level and roster).  Starting early means beginning before that determined time.

So if your optimal grind time is 45 minutes from end of sub, you could start at 90 minutes out to tap a node then do usual grind starting at say 40 minutes left.

Thanks, I appreciate the explanation 

Spudgutter

AlexxKats said:

broll said:

And people talked about the entitlement in the win based PvP threads. *eyeroll*

Seems you keep being irrelevant everywhere at threads that don't talk about what you want.

Get this into your thick skull:

NOONE MINDED POINTS OR WIN COUNTS, BUT MANY COMPLAINED ABOUT REWARDS THAT WE WERE GETTING OVER A YEAR NOW (CP) MISSING FROM REWARDS AND ABSOLUTELY INSANE NUMBER OF WINS REQUIRED FOR THE REST PROGRESSION, OR AS MANY HAVE SAID: OVER DOUBLE THE WORK FOR LESS THE REWARDS. 

Welcome to General Discussion, where most threads deviate from what is prompted in the subject line or initial post. 

Disagree with that post all you want, its pretty hypocritical not to have the same vitriol for similar comments that happen to coincide with your ideas.

The fact of the matter is they arent the same. The issue with wins based, was that vets lost out on rewards from "progression."  This issue is based on "placement," which is why it rings of entitlement.  Someone found a way to optimize play, and those who were accustomed to winning no longer are.

I suggest reading the great post from boywonder, it covers both sides of the issue without being so abrasive.  

broll

aesthetocyst said:

The game has rejected obsessive, repetitive play numerous times, the devs know it is a slippery slope that undermines player engagement and retention. Time to wall off this ridiculous possibility, yet again.

I agree with this, but what is your opinion of my suggestion of having a points cap?  This would enable tappers to tap to make up the points they can't get otherwise do to the ridiculously time based system, but limit it to more reasonable level and prevent them from out pacing optimal players.

STERLING21JJ

Nice write up @Kevmcg

alphabeta

Best option i’ve heard so far to address tapping is really simple

multiply points values of nodes by 10 but leave the tapping values at 1,2,3,4 for over clearing 

won’t be so viable when you need to tap for 28 hours in a 24 hour sub to catch up 

Dartmaster01

@Brigby

Tapping needs to get fixed and soon or a lot of people will be done with competitive play.  In HaT I finished every sub the quickest and am about to be pushed out of top 10.  I won't go as far as to call it cheating but it does need to go. More importantly you need to save people from themselves. Do you really want people tapping 24h a day or for this to go on until someone kills themselves playing a mobile game?  Between this ruining pve and Gambit ruining pvp none of this game is appealing at all right now.

broll

aesthetocyst said:

My opinion is that 'optimal' play is merely the min/max solution (min time / max pts) of a system that is simultaneously lazy, uninspired, and insane, and that the scoring model needs to go. That's been my opinion a long time, which is why I posted "Pinball" and keep referring to it

So long as we aren't doing that kind of overhaul, all we have are band-aids.

Agreed.  I was suggesting a different band aid that I thought was better than the 0 points band aid.  Admittedly though since it would requiring adding a new feature in a points cap it probably wouldn't be a good band aid due to having to develop the point counter.

aesthetocyst said:

Another way to bandaid the system we have now is to scrap refresh altogether, settle on a number of clears, and post time max score was reached, so its clear how the time tiebreaker works. I believe this is similar to your points cap idea? As another bandaid its fine, but anyone needing refresh to make up for essentials will be hardpressed to place. Placement is still tied to a clock, still a race. 

I like this better than the current system with hard 0, but not by much

aesthetocyst said:

Or, my simplest, just multiply all node values and progression points by 10, leave everything else the same. Tapping no longer profitable, ties almost impossible. Done.

Oh my dear RNGsus no!  That would make other problems.  All gaps would be widened so people hurt by time slices or not having required characters would be extenuated.  I'd rather the 0 solution than that..

alaeth

broll said:

aesthetocyst said:

Or, my simplest, just multiply all node values and progression points by 10, leave everything else the same. Tapping no longer profitable, ties almost impossible. Done.

Oh my dear RNGsus no!  That would make other problems.  All gaps would be widened so people hurt by time slices or not having required characters would be extenuated.  I'd rather the 0 solution than that..

Really?  I thought the exact opposite!

If you don't have all the essential characters, why should you be able to compete with those that do?  At least for T5, T10 placement - it should be a for-gone conclusion that you have them all.  The gap between "has the characters required, completed all nodes" and have-nots _should_ be broader!


"x10 the points" - to me, seems like the most fair, and simple solution to the problem.  And - seems likely it can be pushed without a code change as the values (I'm guessing) are database driven, so a simple "data push" would apply the change...

The rockett

@aesthetocyst do you like pinball?  LOL