PVE tapping

The rockett

As most of us know, there is a major issue with PVE that has not been addressed.  This is called tapping.  What a player will do is start is PVE sub grind 1-2 hours early and just do the 4* node to start.  They will tap tap tap this node for hours to get 3 points each time.  This will give them a massive lead that you can never over come no matter how quick you are at clearing (to start your timers) or grinding (to finish your pve clear). 

Let me give you a real life example that is happening right now in S1 SL9 PVE. 
I was leading after sub 1 and the first clear by 16 points over a know tapper in 3rd place. I was keeping my eye on him to see what they were gonna do. I saw them jump early, 1:15 before end of sub.  I was going to start 40 mins before sub end since this has no waves.  I got done in 32 mins and check the leaderboard.  This player tapped the 3* node about 50 times or  151 points. Now this player will take 1st place for this 7 day event getting 4 LTs. There is no way in this game to be able to make these points up unless they over sleep or I over tap them.  This is not how PVE should be.  You should not be losing spots because people want to tap a single node 50/100/200 times per sub, and yes that happens all the time.  

I am asking for D3/Demi to please look at PVE and this tapping issue.  The easy solution is lock all nodes after 10 clears.  The possibility for a tie is very very slim. You would have to clear all the nodes at the same time in the same order for the whole event. I know a lot of other people that play PVE for the top rewards deal with this as well. Please share your thoughts on this and ideas as well. 

Daiches

I'll just leave this here:
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/67497/unhealthy-pve-tap-tap-tap-the-whole-day

SnowcaTT

Let's go a step further. All rewards as progression. Get rid of placement.

Problem solved.

Rhycar

You want top rewards? Show you deserve it. Show you can use your roster and speed to win.

*Removed insults - Ducky

Basepuzzler

It's an abomination.  Make the points go to zero, so the playing field is leveled between the slightly crazed people and the totally nuts have infinite time to play mpq people.

Phumade

LOL vs opening a wallet and buying your way?  hahaha  10 taps is too small especially in light of 150 match pvp sessions.  Total play should be roughly equivalent between pve and pvp sessions.  So whatever the typical T5 pvp avg match count/9 nodes.

Tylander45

I totally agree the tapping is a problem for PVE.  

The othet problem is timing the ‘flip’.  Those that get in early have an advantage.

Two ways to fix both:
All nodes lock after 8-10 clears
No points regeneration until 2 hrs before sub end.  (This makes catching a flip irrelevant until up to 2 hrs before the sub end)

Punishu777

I completely agree. Just make it so when a node hits 0, it stays at 0. Solved.

Tappers, think on your sins...

alaeth

Punishu777 said:

I completely agree. Just make it so when a node hits 0, it stays at 0. Solved.

Tappers, think on your sins...

That's my thought as well.  Zero out the points.

But, confession time, I have been known to tap the 4* essential node myself.

Clearing timing is so tight, that if you start 5-10 minutes early, you finish too early, and others (better rosters, better timing) will pass you. When I finish early, I usually tap the 4* node until the timer runs out.

Pants1000

I support making all nodes drop to 0 after 7 or 10 clears.  I don’t see what that would harm and it seems like a relatively easy solution.

But I disagree that this is a major issue.  It has significant impact to a small group (top 5 players), but 99% of the playerbase isn’t affected.

Phumade

Pants1000 said:

But I disagree that this is a major issue.  It has significant impact to a small group (top 5 players), but 99% of the playerbase isn’t affected.

I agree with this point whole heartedly.  

If a design change only results in a benefit for a small population (top 5 players) its really a statement on what the "optimum" play style (Which is really just an arbitrary decision made by a hidden dev) is vs.

When a playstyle change affects the entire playerbase, then its a bug that needs to be addressed or reviewed.

PVE tapping is really just a statement of what should be optimal playstle vs a game breaking bug that affects the entire playerbase.

Bowgentle

Good job of explaining to everyone how to tap efficiently, rockett.

If more people start doing it now, I'll blame you.

If I had me LINE stickers, I'd post my usual cat.

Rhycar

Phumade said:

Pants1000 said:

But I disagree that this is a major issue.  It has significant impact to a small group (top 5 players), but 99% of the playerbase isn’t affected.

I agree with this point whole heartedly.  

If a design change only results in a benefit for a small population (top 5 players) its really a statement on what the "optimum" play style (Which is really just an arbitrary decision made by a hidden dev) is vs.

When a playstyle change affects the entire playerbase, then its a bug that needs to be addressed or reviewed.

PVE tapping is really just a statement of what should be optimal playstle vs a game breaking bug that affects the entire playerbase.

The only reason it doesn't affect everyone is because everyone doesn't try for top placement. The problem is game design. The most basic question you ask when designing a game is "How do you win?" If the answer is some tinykitty brainless repetition with no skill or roster level or strategy required (at all), you have a bad game design.

And when you purposefully abuse this **** design to pass everyone trying to play the game with some semblance of integrity.

*removed insults - Ducky

Spudgutter

Rhycar said:

Phumade said:

Pants1000 said:

But I disagree that this is a major issue.  It has significant impact to a small group (top 5 players), but 99% of the playerbase isn’t affected.

I agree with this point whole heartedly.  

If a design change only results in a benefit for a small population (top 5 players) its really a statement on what the "optimum" play style (Which is really just an arbitrary decision made by a hidden dev) is vs.

When a playstyle change affects the entire playerbase, then its a bug that needs to be addressed or reviewed.

PVE tapping is really just a statement of what should be optimal playstle vs a game breaking bug that affects the entire playerbase.

The only reason it doesn't affect everyone is because everyone doesn't try for top placement. The problem is game design. The most basic question you ask when designing a game is "How do you win?" If the answer is some tinykitty brainless repetition with no skill or roster level or strategy required (at all), you have a bad game design.

And when you purposefully abuse this tinykitty design to pass everyone trying to play the game with some semblance of integrity.

And right there you point out the hypocrisy in the system.  In pvp, while not the problem it used to be, you can literally target a particular person or alliance, and hit them over and over to keep their scores down.  While silly and petty, it is well within the framework of the game, and many people benefited from this tactic, since it would keep someone else out of top 10 or 25.

How is playing the game as optimally as they can and want considered cowardly, while threatening their pvp not?  Where is the "integrity" in that?

Just like cupcakes, gingerbreads, baking, grilling, sniping, harpooning, etc, some people will bend the game to their benefit.  Are you in a slice flip room?  Then you are benefiting from bad game design.  Are you in a shield check room?  Then you are benefiting from bad game design.  As long as we all agree that it is ok to go outside the framework of the game to communicate to better our scores, we have to accept that selfish people, on occasion, will take it one step further.

You want to decry a bad system?  Show me one where it negativity impacts large portions of the playerbase.  All you are showing me is some crazily dedicated person with the extra time and arguably sad devotion to tap a game for a couple hours to guarantee a top score.

Is it a problem?  Sure.  *Major* problem?  I'm not convinced.

broll

All I can say is boo boo.  You tell us who don’t like points based PvP to jump through all the crazy hoops to win. Someone does they same thing in PvE and it’s a *major* problem...

I get so sick of the idea that some end game players of this game have that they should just be handed the same rewards every time and it’s a mortal sin if a change gives them slightly fewer rewards.  Good on you tappers. Stick it to them!

Bowgentle

broll said:

All I can say is boo boo.  You tell us who don’t like points based PvP to jump through all the crazy hoops to win. Someone does they same thing in PvE and it’s a *major* problem...

I get so sick of the idea that some end game players of this game have that they should just be handed the same rewards every time and it’s a mortal sin if a change gives them slightly fewer rewards.  Good on you tappers. Stick it to them!

It's not the little guys who tap to make up for any disadvantages, it's the guys with big 5* rosters.

CharlieCroker

Bowgentle said:

broll said:

All I can say is boo boo.  You tell us who don’t like points based PvP to jump through all the crazy hoops to win. Someone does they same thing in PvE and it’s a *major* problem...

I get so sick of the idea that some end game players of this game have that they should just be handed the same rewards every time and it’s a mortal sin if a change gives them slightly fewer rewards.  Good on you tappers. Stick it to them!

It's not the little guys who tap to make up for any disadvantages, it's the guys with big 5* rosters.

Some people showing complete and utter ignorance but feeling the need to comment anyway.  The biggest offender (I know of) actually has multiple 550's and still taps every single sub.  Most others I've across playing in CL8 & CL9 also have multiple champed 5*s.

To those arguing it's not a major problem, you're probably right.  But one person tapping can lead to several in the same bracket (especially in release events) and imo that isn't healthy for the players or the game.  And what's sometimes difficult to see is how much tapping goes on with people trying to catch up/move up a placement tier.

Phumade

CharlieCroker said:

 And what's sometimes difficult to see is how much tapping goes on with people trying to catch up/move up a placement tier.

Thats the mechanic that essentially allows players to move up or down a tier.  In my opinion, thats not a bad thing from a competition perspective.  Deciding what's the arbitary cutoff can be a developers perogative,  but I think there needs to be a mechanism that allows players to climb into the next higher placement tier and essentially displace another player

Sandmaker

Bowgentle said:

broll said:

All I can say is boo boo.  You tell us who don’t like points based PvP to jump through all the crazy hoops to win. Someone does they same thing in PvE and it’s a *major* problem...

I get so sick of the idea that some end game players of this game have that they should just be handed the same rewards every time and it’s a mortal sin if a change gives them slightly fewer rewards.  Good on you tappers. Stick it to them!

It's not the little guys who tap to make up for any disadvantages, it's the guys with big 5* rosters.

You're missing his point.

He's pointing out the hypocrisy of many of the people in this thread literally spamming the forums with "L2P PvP Noob" the past 2 months whenever anyone criticize point-based pvp or supported win-based pvp, but then come here and complain about how unfair pve is because they can't keep up with tappers. 

Apparently a broken system is fine when they're on top, but the minute it's not in their favor it becomes: "We need to change the system!"

Spudgutter

Bowgentle said:

broll said:

All I can say is boo boo.  You tell us who don’t like points based PvP to jump through all the crazy hoops to win. Someone does they same thing in PvE and it’s a *major* problem...

I get so sick of the idea that some end game players of this game have that they should just be handed the same rewards every time and it’s a mortal sin if a change gives them slightly fewer rewards.  Good on you tappers. Stick it to them!

It's not the little guys who tap to make up for any disadvantages, it's the guys with big 5* rosters.

He never said they were, so i don't see what point you are making. It would be ok if it were little guys? 

If someone that was deemed to not have a roster "developed enough" for such rewards, I'm sure we would not have heard the end if it...

alphabeta

Tapping is the MPQ version of lurking - most online games struggle for longevity because a system appears that favours time spent doing boring repetitive tasks mindlessly over actually playing the game.

This has two consequences we should all care about:

1. It’s boring as hell to tap on an ongoing basis and as more people do it then it becomes a requirement for more people who don’t want to tap to consider it for placement - this disengages players and they find things that are actually fun and eventually the game is just zombie tapping mindlessly.

2. Is really a subset of 1 but it distorts ‘competition’ in the game in favour of those who are time rich (and other interest poor clearly).  But unfortunately for demiurge and d3 those people are generally (not exclusively) likely to spend less - so as the time poor players who think 1.5/2 hours of pve a day is enough as 4 is not worth it disengage the games revenue drops.

They devs know point 2 very well because it’s why they limited the ability to tap after it initially started - what has happened subsequently is scl9 appeared in pve and provided LTs to the top 5 players per thousand so all of a sudden the in game currency benefit of tapping sky rocketed - the devs need to respond because the direction.tapping has gone since then with 500 points of tapping per sub being observed by some players is distinctly unhealthy for the prospects of the game hitting its next anniversary