11 Mp and more than 120 mythic but...

Koolmind

I am not enjoying the game because the events are boring, the objectives are the same, we need fun and competitive contents in a short time, we played same events since several months, Oktagon change that!

Mainloop25

I do hope that they start to vary objectives in events soon. I don't expect much meaningful change until after Ixalan arrives, but once everything else is in place, I do hope that variety in events is a priority.

blacklotus

Bolas is coming. And a few of us are petitioning to get Omniscience and maybe Hazoret's Undying Fury nerfed. Should make for a new playing experience.

shteev

I've been playing paper MTG a lot recently. It's OK to say that, right? I've been playing it instead of this game. That's probably less OK to say. I make the point because I'm comparing the two.

The thing about a trading card game is that variety of gameplay is driven largely not by the variety of decks you can build yourself, although that is of course a part of it; but by the variety of decks that your opponents play against you.

With the minimal work done on improving the AI in the game, the challenge has instead been shifted to punitive secondary objectives. Some people are a fan of these, and some people aren't, but by shifting the emphasis away from the cards actually being played and towards this much more limited range of boundaries it makes a lot of your games feel the same.

The matchmaking in game doesn't help either. Ask any player of paper MTG, that if you sit down with a random deck of your own to play against a random deck of someone else's, and the chances that you'll get a total mismatch are sky high. Ain't nothing satisfying about a game like that.

Ohboy

I kinda enjoy limited not just for the drafting experience, but also because I get to pit my random deck against his random deck.

Do you do drafts, and then play through the pain of having to play actual games with the deck you drafted?

Or worse, sealed deck pre-releases where you have zero control over your card pool.

shteev

Ohboy said:

I kinda enjoy limited not just for the drafting experience, but also because I get to pit my random deck against his random deck.

Do you do drafts, and then play through the pain of having to play actual games with the deck you drafted?

Or worse, sealed deck pre-releases where you have zero control over your card pool.

I'm drafting like crazy at the moment, actually... Ixalan seems pretty average at this early stage, but there's nothing really wrong with it (apart from that dang 5/5 trample haste at uncommon for 4R!!! Whose idea was that??!! It's a monster!). Iconic Masters is an incredible drafting set, which, I fear, will probably not get the play it deserves due to the cost of the boosters.

When you're in a drafting pod of 8 people, don't you try to make sure it's populated by players who are about the same level as you? That way you don't play against random piles of cards? In fact, drafting with low skilled players is even worse than playing them in a sealed tournament, since they often skew the draft by passing powerful cards to other players. Sitting to the left of a n00b gives someone a big advantage in a drafting pod.

And then, only your first match is against a random player in the pod, isn't it? If you win that, your second match is against a player who won THEIR first match. And then the final is against two players who have both won two matches.

So you see, both the decisions that I take over who to draft with, and the mechanics of the draft itself, conspire to give me games appropriate to my own skill level.

Even those 'worse' sealed deck events still include the system whereby only game 1 is against a randomer, and as you go through the day your opponents are selected according to your performance.



I see that you are amongst a group of players who have taken matters into their own hands in MTGPQ and are setting themselves their own deckbuilding challenges, like pauper challenges, and that's great. Good for you. Personally, tho, I don't currently find playing MTGPQ like that nearly as rewarding as just playing something else. Trying to achieve the appropriate level of challenge for myself is, in my opinion, the job of the game designer... he's got access to a lot more of the variables than I have.

babar3355

I see that you are amongst a group of players who have taken matters into their own hands in MTGPQ and are setting themselves their own deckbuilding challenges, like pauper challenges, and that's great. Good for you. Personally, tho, I don't currently find playing MTGPQ like that nearly as rewarding as just playing something else. Trying to achieve the appropriate level of challenge for myself is, in my opinion, the job of the game designer... he's got access to a lot more of the variables than I have.

That sounds like something I would say... hmm

Ohboy

I guess I'm just different from you.
 
I remember as a kid we would just go up to strangers and ask if they wanted a game. The kind strangers would say yes, and happily play against my weird decks all afternoon. I'm glad they had a different mentality.

They didn't care that I was playing some weird deck, because everyone's deck was weird. The internet wasn't what it is today, and people for the most part built their own decks from their own collections. Doubly true for students who couldn't afford to build a dream deck.

I love to play with random people who build strange decks from random cards. 

babar3355

Ohboy said:

I guess I'm just different from you.
 
I remember as a kid we would just go up to strangers and ask if they wanted a game. The kind strangers would say yes, and happily play against my weird decks all afternoon. I'm glad they had a different mentality.

They didn't care that I was playing some weird deck, because everyone's deck was weird. The internet wasn't what it is today, and people for the most part built their own decks from their own collections. Doubly true for students who couldn't afford to build a dream deck.

I love to play with random people who build strange decks from random cards. 

This is kind of like my example of beating OGW with G1 at lvl 40.  Back in the days we had a very limited MTG cards and information and just had to make due with what we had.  I find that to be a much more fun way to play MTG. However, very few people would sideline their strongest cards in favor of inferior options in the 1990's MTG metagame either.

I just think the MTGPQ developers need to figure out a way to lead players down this route rather than expecting us to sideline our bombs and self impose restrictions on ourselves.  MTG probably could use some help here as well actually.

Ohboy

babar3355 said:

Ohboy said:

I guess I'm just different from you.
 
I remember as a kid we would just go up to strangers and ask if they wanted a game. The kind strangers would say yes, and happily play against my weird decks all afternoon. I'm glad they had a different mentality.

They didn't care that I was playing some weird deck, because everyone's deck was weird. The internet wasn't what it is today, and people for the most part built their own decks from their own collections. Doubly true for students who couldn't afford to build a dream deck.

I love to play with random people who build strange decks from random cards. 

This is kind of like my example of beating OGW with G1 at lvl 40.  Back in the days we had a very limited MTG cards and information and just had to make due with what we had.  I find that to be a much more fun way to play MTG. However, very few people would sideline their strongest cards in favor of inferior options in the 1990's MTG metagame either.

I just think the MTGPQ developers need to figure out a way to lead players down this route rather than expecting us to sideline our bombs and self impose restrictions on ourselves.  MTG probably could use some help here as well actually.

I swear I spent months trying to make polar kraken work. 

babar3355

Haha, my buddy did too.  I never had my own.

As an aside, a buddy built a goblin grendade deck.. that was my first realization that it is no fun to play a janky random deck against a finely tuned synergistic deck.

Sirchombli

I've played many different variations of paper mtg over the last 20 odd years. Power creep has been happening since about invasion. The game is a whole different animal now. Even set design is geared towards specific deck archetypes in limited. 

I like power creep. I like big, splashy, oppressive cards. I like a challenge. That's why all the crys for nerfs and balance drive me nuts. It isn't 97 anymore. Balance just means different things than it used to. Even cycling, in all of it's fundamental brokenness, isn't really bad. It's just mind numbingly dull to play. It's not like this is 2008 and your choices are fae, lark or lose. There are so many different deck possibilities. I rarely even use the same deck twice. The game is stuck in a rut right now, but we know exactly why. Complaining isn't going to expedite the process. Rushing things is what got the game to the point it's at now. When you have a group that complains this much, there's no right answer. To we make shteev happy? Ohboy? Babar? What about everybody else? Or do we just let them show us what they can do? That's a trick question, because it isn't up to us. The game is going to continue on. Drop rates will always be less than ideal. Things will always cost more money than we'd like. Bolas is going to be obnoxious and probably warp things further. I think that's fun though. 

shteev

Sirchombli said:

I like power creep.

All opinions are valid within this forum; your minority one, too!

babar3355

Sirchombli said:

I've played many different variations of paper mtg over the last 20 odd years. Power creep has been happening since about invasion. The game is a whole different animal now. Even set design is geared towards specific deck archetypes in limited. 

I like power creep. I like big, splashy, oppressive cards. I like a challenge. That's why all the crys for nerfs and balance drive me nuts. It isn't 97 anymore. Balance just means different things than it used to. Even cycling, in all of it's fundamental brokenness, isn't really bad. It's just mind numbingly dull to play. It's not like this is 2008 and your choices are fae, lark or lose. There are so many different deck possibilities. I rarely even use the same deck twice. The game is stuck in a rut right now, but we know exactly why. Complaining isn't going to expedite the process. Rushing things is what got the game to the point it's at now. When you have a group that complains this much, there's no right answer. To we make shteev happy? Ohboy? Babar? What about everybody else? Or do we just let them show us what they can do? That's a trick question, because it isn't up to us. The game is going to continue on. Drop rates will always be less than ideal. Things will always cost more money than we'd like. Bolas is going to be obnoxious and probably warp things further. I think that's fun though. 

Well obviously they should listen to me... because I am right.  Always.

I did think I was wrong once, but then I realized I was mistaken.

shteev

Ohboy said:

I guess I'm just different from you.
 
I remember as a kid we would just go up to strangers and ask if they wanted a game. The kind strangers would say yes, and happily play against my weird decks all afternoon. I'm glad they had a different mentality.

They didn't care that I was playing some weird deck, because everyone's deck was weird. The internet wasn't what it is today, and people for the most part built their own decks from their own collections. Doubly true for students who couldn't afford to build a dream deck.

I love to play with random people who build strange decks from random cards. 

This is the difference between hardcore and casual players, right? I'm more interested in the rules and mechanics of the game being fair and balanced, and the social aspects of the game are secondary to me, whereas you sound like you're at the other end of the spectrum.

So here's the thing: If casual gamers are don't really care what the rules of a game are, and are going to make up their own challenges anyway, then why not make the game fair and balanced, and then both groups can be happy?

Plus... don't hardcore gamers spend more than casual gamers?

Ohboy

shteev said:

Ohboy said:

I guess I'm just different from you.
 
I remember as a kid we would just go up to strangers and ask if they wanted a game. The kind strangers would say yes, and happily play against my weird decks all afternoon. I'm glad they had a different mentality.

They didn't care that I was playing some weird deck, because everyone's deck was weird. The internet wasn't what it is today, and people for the most part built their own decks from their own collections. Doubly true for students who couldn't afford to build a dream deck.

I love to play with random people who build strange decks from random cards. 

This is the difference between hardcore and casual players, right? I'm more interested in the rules and mechanics of the game being fair and balanced, and the social aspects of the game are secondary to me, whereas you sound like you're at the other end of the spectrum.

So here's the thing: If casual gamers are don't really care what the rules of a game are, and are going to make up their own challenges anyway, then why not make the game fair and balanced, and then both groups can be happy?

Plus... don't hardcore gamers spend more than casual gamers?

OK stop building strawman so quickly. You'll get a hernia.

I never said the game shouldn't be balanced. It absolutely should. That's different from the complaint of content being stale though. Very different. Do you think we're playing challenges to experience balanced gameplay? I would love to hear that train of logic. 

And yes, hardcore gamers spend more than casuals, in a game correctly designed to make the hardcore players run the red queen paradox threadmill. This game is generous to the point where people don't need to do that to stay at the top. Since there's no upward pressure exerted, the demand for collection is pretty flat across the board(actually more on lower levels because of an exponential increase in power). You know which demographic is the smallest? 

I know you'll throw some league of legends and team fortress examples at me again, so let me save your back the work and head you off at the piles of straw. I totally agree it's a working model and would love to see it in this game.  Unfortunately that's obviously not the model this game was originally designed for. 

Look at us. Agreeing. About everything and nothing at the same time. 

shteev

Ohboy said:

I know you'll throw some league of legends and team fortress examples at me again, so let me save your back the work and head you off at the piles of straw.

What can I say? I'm the guy linking to things to support what I say, and you're the guy linking to nothing to support what you say, and misrepresenting what I'm saying as usual... League of Legends and Team Fortress? Try reading my link - The study contained within is absolutely talking about the mobile game market, and not mobos or FPSs.

Ohboy

Really?

Seriously bad memory dude. 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/666328#Comment_666328

I've said it before. I respect you enough to assume you remember what you've said before. Let me know if I should demote that. 

shteev

Ohboy said:

Really?

Seriously bad memory dude. 

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/666328#Comment_666328

I've said it before. I respect you enough to assume you remember what you've said before. Let me know if I should demote that. 

From April 12th? Jeez. You *have* got a good memory.

Also, that thread and this thread are about completely different topics. You can tie those together if you like, because I haven't got time or the inclination: once again, I call troll.

Ohboy

Aren't they both referring to monetization models? 

How is that irrelevant?

And I even copied your style of post as a tribute. 

Kinesia

Monetary models.
Casual vs hardcore.

Whether casuals spend more than hard core _depends_ on what you are selling.

Everyone buys Olivia probably, Hardcore recognise and buy Baral, Casual buy Sovereign Cat Dude because he's cool.

Casual buy looks and cool things and ideas. Hardcore buy raw power. Hardcore miss out on a lot of real life in my opinion, they are lacking something _deep_ and the game will never fill it, but they can try, that's cool. Hopefully they will eventually learn wisdom to go with their (presumed) intellect.

I, personally, would pay to get the other half of the meld creatures I am missing, but that is kinda a _personal_ deal to offer... But... They actually have the information to offer personal deals to people, that's all I'm sayin'....


There is money to dig out of both casual and hardcore and beginners without alienating anyone, but part of it is through digging through the information and not through giving the same deals to everyone.


(Oktagon, feel free to contact me, D3 aren't quite open enough yet, Brigby will talk to me, but their upper management should've directly contacted me a while back, but support don't properly escalate things even when you ask.)