Kaladesh Elite Packs and the Future of Limited Format

Mburn7

TomB said:

bken1234 said:

I don't agree with this -- as I never jumped on the cycling bandwagon -- I see Amonkhet as being quite powerful in it's own right -- in fact, most of my decks are Amonkhet / HOU heavy regardless of format. Cycling is boring, games should be fun. 

What Amonkhet is missing in aggro, it makes up for in other ways. Some of the best cards in the game for control are in this set for instance. 

Desert's Hold is an uncommon that does the same thing as S. Bonds for 2 less mana. 

Gideon's Intervention and Gideon's Defeat can win or lose a match for you depending on whether you are playing with or against them. 

Combine these three cards with Nyx from Origins and nothing can stop you. 

Also the ability to drive out other cards using things like HUF, Omni and Swarm are way more powerful than what we've seen anywhere. 

You're right - if you own the bolded cards Amonket/HOU ARE powerful sets, but comparatively I agree with @wereotter that the power level of KLD/AER was superior.

You know, I love seeing posts like this.  When KLD first came out people were screaming all over the forums about how awful the cards were (actually before it came out).  Same for AER, except for the few broken mythics that they were screaming about nerfing (Gonti's Heart, RE, Baral, Pummeler...ect).

Now suddenly KLD/AER is the superior power level?  This is why I always say wait to play with the cards a bit before trashing them.  Although I personally think Amk/HOU is much stronger, it has some of the best green gem converters (except for RE obviously), embalm/eternalize is amazingly easy and fun to abuse (with uncommons!), black got great removal again (not quite as great as BFZ/OGW, but still great), white control is back, blue control is broken(er), and with 2 rare red spells you can instantly win any game (I am unfortunately missing 1 of them).

Sure I'll miss my energy decks and all the colorless 6/6 when KLD/AER rotate out, but it won't have any more drastic of a change to the game than the current standard cycle did

Ohboy

TomB said:

bken1234 said:

I don't agree with this -- as I never jumped on the cycling bandwagon -- I see Amonkhet as being quite powerful in it's own right -- in fact, most of my decks are Amonkhet / HOU heavy regardless of format. Cycling is boring, games should be fun. 

What Amonkhet is missing in aggro, it makes up for in other ways. Some of the best cards in the game for control are in this set for instance. 

Desert's Hold is an uncommon that does the same thing as S. Bonds for 2 less mana. 

Gideon's Intervention and Gideon's Defeat can win or lose a match for you depending on whether you are playing with or against them. 

Combine these three cards with Nyx from Origins and nothing can stop you. 

Also the ability to drive out other cards using things like HUF, Omni and Swarm are way more powerful than what we've seen anywhere. 

You're right - if you own the bolded cards Amonket/HOU ARE powerful sets, but comparatively I agree with @wereotter that the power level of KLD/AER was superior.

Name me some commons/Uncommons I cannot bold out like you did in Kld/AER that outclass the akh/hou sets. 

I honestly can't think of many.

Let's not forget that the common consensus was that Kld was weak

Mainloop25

I still think KLD is weak. There aren't too many must-have cards in it, other than a handful of mythic OP bombs, and Insidious Will, Scrounger, unlicensed disintegration, maybe deadlock. AER helped it some with a few key cards, but overall AKH/HOU is better balanced with strong cards at every rarity level. I can't think of a single common from KLD/AER that gets any play whereas with AKH/HOU I can easily think of three (no I'm not counting cycle decks.) 

Ohboy

Mainloop25 said:

I still think KLD is weak. There aren't too many must-have cards in it, other than a handful of mythic OP bombs, and Insidious Will, Scrounger, unlicensed disintegration, maybe deadlock. AER helped it some with a few key cards, but overall AKH/HOU is better balanced with strong cards at every rarity level. I can't think of a single common from KLD/AER that gets any play whereas with AKH/HOU I can easily think of three (no I'm not counting cycle decks.) 

I do have some candidates for usable cards in that block, some of whom I maindeck. 

Unlicensed disintegration
Demolition stomper
Giant spectacle
Aerial modification 

But they do pale in power levels from the akh/hou ones

bk1234

Ohboy said:

Mainloop25 said:

I still think KLD is weak. There aren't too many must-have cards in it, other than a handful of mythic OP bombs, and Insidious Will, Scrounger, unlicensed disintegration, maybe deadlock. AER helped it some with a few key cards, but overall AKH/HOU is better balanced with strong cards at every rarity level. I can't think of a single common from KLD/AER that gets any play whereas with AKH/HOU I can easily think of three (no I'm not counting cycle decks.) 

I do have some candidates for usable cards in that block, some of whom I maindeck. 

Unlicensed disintegration
Demolition stomper
Giant spectacle
Aerial modification 

But they do pale in power levels from the akh/hou ones

In addition:

Tidy Conclusion
Glimmer of Genius
Attune with Aether 
Live Fast
Blossoming Defense

Mainloop25

Ohboy said:

Mainloop25 said:

I still think KLD is weak. There aren't too many must-have cards in it, other than a handful of mythic OP bombs, and Insidious Will, Scrounger, unlicensed disintegration, maybe deadlock. AER helped it some with a few key cards, but overall AKH/HOU is better balanced with strong cards at every rarity level. I can't think of a single common from KLD/AER that gets any play whereas with AKH/HOU I can easily think of three (no I'm not counting cycle decks.) 

I do have some candidates for usable cards in that block, some of whom I maindeck. 

Unlicensed disintegration
Demolition stomper
Giant spectacle
Aerial modification 

But they do pale in power levels from the akh/hou ones

Those are all uncommons except for spectacle. I'll give you giant spectacle though, it's a bit underused. 

babar3355

You guys are missing the point that KLD has a 12/12 blocker for 14 Mana and a 16/16 flying blocker for 25 that are COLORLESS!  Oddly they synergize beautifully with each other.  I have to downgrade any deck to not use these bombs in every deck in every event.  It's great to have them, but you must realize why I spend so much time complaining on the forums.  Any deck I build is slower or less consistent than those 2 and 8 more cards.  Sadly that's nearly true in legacy.
And AOI is 13/13 in first slot

What cards are more power creepy in SOI block?  Olivia,

Ohboy

babar3355 said:

You guys are missing the point that KLD has a 12/12 blocker for 14 Mana and a 16/16 flying blocker for 25 that are COLORLESS!  Oddly they synergize beautifully with each other.  I have to downgrade any deck to not use these bombs in every deck in every event.  It's great to have them, but you must realize why I spend so much time complaining on the forums.  Any deck I build is slower or less consistent than those 2 and 8 more cards.  Sadly that's nearly true in legacy.
And AOI is 13/13 in first slot

What cards are more power creepy in SOI block?  Olivia,

You've missed the point. We're comparing kld block and akh one, but ignoring those cards that are hard to get. For example, I don't have your 16/16 blocker.

bk1234

babar3355 said:

You guys are missing the point that KLD has a 12/12 blocker for 14 Mana and a 16/16 flying blocker for 25 that are COLORLESS!  Oddly they synergize beautifully with each other.  I have to downgrade any deck to not use these bombs in every deck in every event.  It's great to have them, but you must realize why I spend so much time complaining on the forums.  Any deck I build is slower or less consistent than those 2 and 8 more cards.  Sadly that's nearly true in legacy.
And AOI is 13/13 in first slot

What cards are more power creepy in SOI block?  Olivia,

I don’t have both of those cards and can disable or kill each one before they touch me with AKH / HOU cards of more common rarity. 

blacklotus

personally, I don't mind playing the current cycling meta till mtgpq stops being supported. but that's just my personal preference.

TomB

bken1234 said:

babar3355 said:

You guys are missing the point that KLD has a 12/12 blocker for 14 Mana and a 16/16 flying blocker for 25 that are COLORLESS!  Oddly they synergize beautifully with each other.  I have to downgrade any deck to not use these bombs in every deck in every event.  It's great to have them, but you must realize why I spend so much time complaining on the forums.  Any deck I build is slower or less consistent than those 2 and 8 more cards.  Sadly that's nearly true in legacy.
And AOI is 13/13 in first slot

What cards are more power creepy in SOI block?  Olivia,

I don’t have both of those cards and can disable or kill each one before they touch me with AKH / HOU cards of more common rarity. 

I think there's counter cards to pretty much every card out there if you look hard enough. I actually managed to win a game once where an enemy Koth got a Piggy out on it's first turn followed by an Olivia. I stole the Pig with Lay Claim, then used it to kill the Olivia AND another Pig it managed to cast on the following turn. That's 3 of the toughest creature cards in the game canceled with 1 card!

Too bad I didn't wait a turn to snatch the Decimator - I could have kept using it after it ROFLstomped the Olivia...lol

You guys have a point about the power level of the commons in AMK/HOU. That is one aspect of the set that seems superior to older sets. And it probably isn't fair to exclude the power of Cycling either, since it affects more than just Drake Haven/New Perspectives builds. That would be like excluding the power of Energy gems from KLD, since it's pretty much THE central theme of the set. And it's WAY more powerful than Energy, even if it is boring, and then there is those bolded OP cards, so perhaps I've been a bit hasty in my evaluation of AMK after all. meh

babar3355

Well, just saying KLD wasn't exactly lacking in power creep.  And you guys were both welcome to buy said 16/16 blocker... Two opportunities actually. Which is how I got it.

IM_CARLOS

Gilesclone said:

Sadly, we’re stuck with cycling for a long time. 

Cycling is for players only. I never saw Greg cycle any card and you don't have to use cycle decks.

The only thing is: cycling is boring to play.

ZW2007-

bken1234 said:

majincob said:

Sorry for nitpicking @bken1234 , but can you please call it "standard" format? Limited format has a specific meaning in paper magic and it throws me for a loop whenever you say limited when in paper magic terms you mean standard.

Since it has been only designated as Limited Format in official correspondence from D3 Go! for PQ, I prefer to use this term when referring to the game -- as it doesn't not align with paper Standard -- which is why I think they use the term Limited. 

Also it's important to designate the difference because paper players who join the game might have expectations that do not align. 

As of now, "Standard" and "Legacy" are the terms we, the players, have applied to the two formats -- and the official terms are "Limited Format" or "Deck Restrictions" and "No Deck Restrictions". When D3 Go! or Oktagon start using the terms Legacy and Standard in official correspondence, I will happily adjust -- (but then will start a conversation about why they don't align with paper yet use the same terminology).

My teams don't like it either, but I think until we get some feedback on the intentions of the two formats, it's important to designate the difference. 

See bolded section. Calling it "Limited Format" does give paper players who join the game expectations that do not align. Limited in paper magic is quite literally limited to the cards you open before playing games for each specific event. Limited in PQ is quite different. Calling it "Standard Format" in PQ would more closely align to paper's version of the same than calling it "Limited Format" does. Can't we just refer to them as "Restricted Format" and "Unrestricted Format" instead?

Ohboy

ZW2007- said:

See bolded section. Calling it "Limited Format" does give paper players who join the game expectations that do not align. Limited in paper magic is quite literally limited to the cards you open before playing games for each specific event. Limited in PQ is quite different. Calling it "Standard Format" in PQ would more closely align to paper's version of the same than calling it "Limited Format" does. Can't we just refer to them as "Restricted Format" and "Unrestricted Format" instead?

We could call it standard and legacy so people who play mtg know roughly what the format entails.

Or we could call it limited because that's what the developers call it.

Do we really need to come up with yet another way to call it as an attempt to cut down confusion?

ZW2007-

Ohboy said:

ZW2007- said:

See bolded section. Calling it "Limited Format" does give paper players who join the game expectations that do not align. Limited in paper magic is quite literally limited to the cards you open before playing games for each specific event. Limited in PQ is quite different. Calling it "Standard Format" in PQ would more closely align to paper's version of the same than calling it "Limited Format" does. Can't we just refer to them as "Restricted Format" and "Unrestricted Format" instead?

We could call it standard and legacy so people who play mtg know roughly what the format entails.

Or we could call it limited because that's what the developers call it.

Do we really need to come up with yet another way to call it as an attempt to cut down confusion?

Apparently. We were just told not to call them Legacy or Standard because that could cause confusion so we should call it Limited like the developers do, except that has the same problem as the player defined terms. Restricted and Unrestricted are easy to understand terms that also don't have a paper magic counterpart.

re·strict·ed

rəˈstriktəd/

adjective

limited in extent, number, scope, or action.

un·re·strict·ed

ˌənrəˈstriktəd/

adjective

not limited or restricted.

Now obviously restricted is synonymous with limited but there is a paper Limited format that is nothing like what is being called Limited in PQ.

And before anyone says about restricted being in paper magic, that's not a format; that's a list of cards that are restricted within the Vintage format.

Not to mention the fact that there have been many pleas for a true Limited format to be added into PQ...

Ohboy

ZW2007- said:

Ohboy said

ZW2007- said:

See bolded section. Calling it "Limited Format" does give paper players who join the game expectations that do not align. Limited in paper magic is quite literally limited to the cards you open before playing games for each specific event. Limited in PQ is quite different. Calling it "Standard Format" in PQ would more closely align to paper's version of the same than calling it "Limited Format" does. Can't we just refer to them as "Restricted Format" and "Unrestricted Format" instead?

We could call it standard and legacy so people who play mtg know roughly what the format entails.

Or we could call it limited because that's what the developers call it.

Do we really need to come up with yet another way to call it as an attempt to cut down confusion?

Apparently. We were just told not to call them Legacy or Standard because that could cause confusion so we should call it Limited like the developers do, except that has the same problem as the player defined terms. Restricted and Unrestricted are easy to understand terms that also don't have a paper magic counterpart.

re·strict·ed

rəˈstriktəd/

adjective

limited in extent, number, scope, or action.

un·re·strict·ed

ˌənrəˈstriktəd/

adjective

not limited or restricted.

Now obviously restricted is synonymous with limited but there is a paper Limited format that is nothing like what is being called Limited in PQ.

And before anyone says about restricted being in paper magic, that's not a format; that's a list of cards that are restricted within the Vintage format.

Not to mention the fact that there have been many pleas for a true Limited format to be added into PQ...

When were you told not to call it standard and legacy? The exact opposite happened and someone told bken not to call it limited and use standard and legacy instead.

shteev

Just thought I'd weigh in here... yes, Limited has a meaning in paper the same way that Standard and Legacy do, and paper players will come to this game with expectations of what it means. I agree with that.

Additionally, tho, if we are describing the two currently available formats as Limited and Unlimited, that kinda brings with it the expectation that this is only one type of limited format. I'd very, very much like to see events where the different sets  in the game are mixed and matched.. it's a pretty easy way to create a certain amount of variety in deckbuilding. Block formats should be tried, yes, but beyond that, mixing any collection of sets together will create a new format with a minimum of effort. Sure, they'll still be dominated by the OP cards within those sets, but it's better than nothing, and, hey! They could fix the OP cards as well.

ElfNeedsFood

It seems nearly all conversation of power creep in KLD is in reference to creatures and in AKH/HOU is mechanics or spells. I think it’s quite all right for each block to have a different feel for what it adds to the game. I think the next block appears to be leaning towards clans and synergy in sticking to your chosen clan. Could be interesting or could totally flop like Allies. 

Mburn7

ElfNeedsFood said:

It seems nearly all conversation of power creep in KLD is in reference to creatures and in AKH/HOU is mechanics or spells. I think it’s quite all right for each block to have a different feel for what it adds to the game. I think the next block appears to be leaning towards clans and synergy in sticking to your chosen clan. Could be interesting or could totally flop like Allies. 

I would not call Allies a flop, except in the sense that they only exist in the one set.  My Zendikar Gideon ally deck was one of my most consistent before standard (even better now that I finally got the Veteran Warleader).  Allies are incredibly powerful, they just do not (and most likely will not) exist in future sets

Merfolk appear sporadically in sets and Vampires are in most sets nowadays, the only one that may be an issue are Dinos