Brigby - Is there a plan for DST?

huktonfonix

Next weekend time changes for most of the US, including wherever the MPQ servers are located. Despite this being a predictable event, this has caused problems in MPQ every 6 months for as long as I’ve played with event end times getting messed up every time.

Can we please have some reassurance from the devs that there is a plan in place to handle the time change?

Pants1000

What problems did it cause?  If I remember correctly, already running event end times were different by an hour, then they were back to normal.  That could be a tiny disruption if you have a set schedule, but I don't think there's a better option, since the whole world doesn't follow the same DST rules.

Bowgentle

Oh God I still remember a 8hr PVE where I got up Sunday morning at 5am and had all my chars wiped cause timers went crazy.

Daiches

DST happens in 3h in Europe (and most influential the non-US world). For us it means an entire week of events being one hour earlier. Best time of the year. 10 pm PVE

jamesh

One fix would be to tie the game clock to UTC, and just have the events shift by an hour for people in countries that observe DST.

Even for other northern hemisphere countries observing DST, the current system causes confusion because they don't all follow the US's transition dates.

TPF Alexis

jamesh said:

One fix would be to tie the game clock to UTC, and just have the events shift by an hour for people in countries that observe DST.

Even for other northern hemisphere countries observing DST, the current system causes confusion because they don't all follow the US's transition dates.

Heck, parts of the US don't follow the US's take on DST.

Quebbster

jamesh said:

One fix would be to tie the game clock to UTC, and just have the events shift by an hour for people in countries that observe DST.

Even for other northern hemisphere countries observing DST, the current system causes confusion because they don't all follow the US's transition dates.

This would mean different players in the same bracket having different end times for the event. That could get... awkward.

jamesh

Quebbster said:

jamesh said:

One fix would be to tie the game clock to UTC, and just have the events shift by an hour for people in countries that observe DST.

Even for other northern hemisphere countries observing DST, the current system causes confusion because they don't all follow the US's transition dates.

This would mean different players in the same bracket having different end times for the event. That could get... awkward.

Everyone would have the same end times, just as they do now.  The only difference is that the end times would not change (subject to real time) when the US transitions to or from DST.

Quebbster

jamesh said:

Quebbster said:

jamesh said:

One fix would be to tie the game clock to UTC, and just have the events shift by an hour for people in countries that observe DST.

Even for other northern hemisphere countries observing DST, the current system causes confusion because they don't all follow the US's transition dates.

This would mean different players in the same bracket having different end times for the event. That could get... awkward.

Everyone would have the same end times, just as they do now.  The only difference is that the end times would not change (subject to real time) when the US transitions to or from DST.

What do you mean with "real time"? As far as I know the PvE subs are always 24 or 48 hours and the PvP events are always 60 hours long, even when the US time shift happens during the event.

jamesh

OJSP said:

jamesh said:

Everyone would have the same end times, just as they do now.  The only difference is that the end times would not change (subject to real time) when the US transitions to or from DST.

I'm not entirely clear with what you're suggesting. Currently, the event end times in countries that don't observe Summer Time would change every 6 months. In countries that change their clocks at a different time to the US, there is a difference in end times for a couple of weeks.

With your proposal, the event end times in countries that observe Summer Time would change every 6 months instead, to keep the rest of the world's end times the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anyway the in game timers are set up (with the clocks being fixed to the server's timezone), there will always be an adjustment when the clocks change, wouldn't they?

Most modern operating systems maintain time in UTC, and then calculate the local time from there on demand.  When you pass through a daylight savings transition, it just switches from one UTC offset to another rather than winding its internal clock forward or backward.  All things considered, it is probably slightly more difficult to schedule future events according to local time.

As far as what would be simpler to understand, remember that the current system leads to 5 behaviours depending on where you live:

1. In a northern hemisphere country that uses the same transition dates as the US: events have a fixed end time year round.
2. In a northern hemisphere country that uses different transition dates: most of the year events end at the same time, but twice a year they shift by an hour for maybe a week.
3. In a country with no daylight saving: event end times shift back an hour during the northern summer.
4. In a southern hemisphere country that happens to use the same transition dates as the US: events end times shift forward two hours in the northern summer.
5. In a southern hemisphere country with different transition dates: event end times briefly shift by one hour before shifting another around transitions.

In comparison, fixing event end times to UTC makes the rule simple: if you observe DST, events will shift forward an hour after your clock changes.

Quebbster

jamesh said:

OJSP said:

jamesh said:

Everyone would have the same end times, just as they do now.  The only difference is that the end times would not change (subject to real time) when the US transitions to or from DST.

I'm not entirely clear with what you're suggesting. Currently, the event end times in countries that don't observe Summer Time would change every 6 months. In countries that change their clocks at a different time to the US, there is a difference in end times for a couple of weeks.

With your proposal, the event end times in countries that observe Summer Time would change every 6 months instead, to keep the rest of the world's end times the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anyway the in game timers are set up (with the clocks being fixed to the server's timezone), there will always be an adjustment when the clocks change, wouldn't they?

Most modern operating systems maintain time in UTC, and then calculate the local time from there on demand.  When you pass through a daylight savings transition, it just switches from one UTC offset to another rather than winding its internal clock forward or backward.  All things considered, it is probably slightly more difficult to schedule future events according to local time.

As far as what would be simpler to understand, remember that the current system leads to 5 behaviours depending on where you live:

1. In a northern hemisphere country that uses the same transition dates as the US: events have a fixed end time year round.
2. In a northern hemisphere country that uses different transition dates: most of the year events end at the same time, but twice a year they shift by an hour for maybe a week.
3. In a country with no daylight saving: event end times shift back an hour during the northern summer.
4. In a southern hemisphere country that happens to use the same transition dates as the US: events end times shift forward two hours in the northern summer.
5. In a southern hemisphere country with different transition dates: event end times briefly shift by one hour before shifting another around transitions.

In comparison, fixing event end times to UTC makes the rule simple: if you observe DST, events will shift forward an hour after your clock changes.

I don't get how this is different from the way it is now. For me DST ended last night, so for me the end times are now an hour earlier than they were earlier in the week, and they will remain offset by han hour until the US ends DST next weekend and the end times shift accordingly.

jamesh

Quebbster said:

jamesh said:

OJSP said:

jamesh said:

Everyone would have the same end times, just as they do now.  The only difference is that the end times would not change (subject to real time) when the US transitions to or from DST.

I'm not entirely clear with what you're suggesting. Currently, the event end times in countries that don't observe Summer Time would change every 6 months. In countries that change their clocks at a different time to the US, there is a difference in end times for a couple of weeks.

With your proposal, the event end times in countries that observe Summer Time would change every 6 months instead, to keep the rest of the world's end times the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but anyway the in game timers are set up (with the clocks being fixed to the server's timezone), there will always be an adjustment when the clocks change, wouldn't they?

Most modern operating systems maintain time in UTC, and then calculate the local time from there on demand.  When you pass through a daylight savings transition, it just switches from one UTC offset to another rather than winding its internal clock forward or backward.  All things considered, it is probably slightly more difficult to schedule future events according to local time.

As far as what would be simpler to understand, remember that the current system leads to 5 behaviours depending on where you live:

1. In a northern hemisphere country that uses the same transition dates as the US: events have a fixed end time year round.
2. In a northern hemisphere country that uses different transition dates: most of the year events end at the same time, but twice a year they shift by an hour for maybe a week.
3. In a country with no daylight saving: event end times shift back an hour during the northern summer.
4. In a southern hemisphere country that happens to use the same transition dates as the US: events end times shift forward two hours in the northern summer.
5. In a southern hemisphere country with different transition dates: event end times briefly shift by one hour before shifting another around transitions.

In comparison, fixing event end times to UTC makes the rule simple: if you observe DST, events will shift forward an hour after your clock changes.

I don't get how this is different from the way it is now. For me DST ended last night, so for me the end times are now an hour earlier than they were earlier in the week, and they will remain offset by han hour until the US ends DST next weekend and the end times shift accordingly.

The difference is that you would see at most two time changes a year, and they would only relate to your own country's DST rules rather than having four changes a year dependent on two countries' rules.

And for southern hemisphere countries that use DST, it would reduce how much the event times change in summer.

huktonfonix

@Brigby could you please relay these concerns to the Dev team?  In recent memory DST changes have included bugs like events/subs ticking down to zero and then re-opening for one hour, completely messing up peoples' end grinds and shield timers, and many players logging in to find every single character on their roster dead.

Given that we know the schedule of this change, it would be great to know that contingency plans are in the works and know what to expect, instead of sitting around waiting to see what happens when the clock strikes 2.

Brigby

Hi Everyone. I have passed along this thread, and its relevant info, along to the developers, Thanks for the help!

huktonfonix

I knew we could count on you.  Thanks!

Jaedenkaal

In my experience (outside MPQ), DST "issues" are nearly always user expectation issues, occasionally display issues, and hardly ever actually code issues or bugs.

huktonfonix

Jaedenkaal said:

In my experience (outside MPQ), DST "issues" are nearly always user expectation issues, occasionally display issues, and hardly ever actually code issues or bugs.

Outside MPQ, sure.  In MPQ we get fun things like subs ending and then reopening for an hour, and peoples' entire rosters being downed if they happen to be playing when the changeover occurs.  The issues go beyond users simply being unable to add/subtract an hour and adjust their play times and shield times accordingly.

Daredevil217

Will lightning rounds start/end an hour earlier Sunday?

Bowgentle

Daredevil217 said:

Will lightning rounds start/end an hour earlier Sunday?

It's the weekend, and poor Brigby hasn't received any info from the devs since October 30th.
So you'll find out when it happens.

Quebbster

I think the rounds will keep running every other hour. So yes, the start times should shift when DST ends.

bluewolf

The eots event had to shift its end times for dst. All the rounds will start one hour earlier after today.