Ruinate said: Title of the thread is a "...a better future". Most of the folk here, and certainly most of the folk happy with this change are the 4* players. Their future is 5* level play where CP has been placed out of reach for many. So when vets say something like - "you won't like this change in the future because CP has been removed from prog", the rebuttal is something along the lines of "well I have no interest in t10 or 5* level play so it doesn't affect me."Can somebody walk me through OP's terrible logic?
meekersX said: I disagree with the arguments put forward in the original post. The PvP changes only slow progression in the 5* tier. We should judge the changes based on the game as it is currently, not what we hope for the future.
bOmbast said: While the change might make it easier to gain 4* covers for more players, I'm not even sure it speeds up progress that much:I champed my first 4* a year ago, and ever since that day I've never once stopped to think "hey, I got all this ISO lying around, but no covered 4*s to spend them on!" As soon as you enter 4 star land, you'll never have enough ISO to keep up with the cover flow. Sure, it's good when it's the one cover you really need, but you won't be able to champ your 4s any quicker.
D4Ni13 said: bOmbast said: While the change might make it easier to gain 4* covers for more players, I'm not even sure it speeds up progress that much:I champed my first 4* a year ago, and ever since that day I've never once stopped to think "hey, I got all this ISO lying around, but no covered 4*s to spend them on!" As soon as you enter 4 star land, you'll never have enough ISO to keep up with the cover flow. Sure, it's good when it's the one cover you really need, but you won't be able to champ your 4s any quicker. While I agree with you, there is this misconception that one needs to cover all the 4* in the game, which is false. I personally won't cover all the 4*, as much as I don't have all the 3*, and never will and there are 2 big reasons for this: I don't have enough space for all of them, and I don't like all of them. One may argue that you need them for requirement nodes, but please. The only rarity I have all the covers are the 2 stars, because cycling them is a good source of constant rewards. The next on the list are 5*, but this is possible because of them being still very few. But once their number will grow, there is no way I will continue to cover all of them. Why should I ocupy a space for Banner if I never use him unless I'm forced to (just an example) ? So while it's true that you are always short on ISO in 4* land, you can prioritize your targets, and you certainly can omit some of them, according to play style and preferences.
Milk Jugz said: D4Ni13 said: bOmbast said: While the change might make it easier to gain 4* covers for more players, I'm not even sure it speeds up progress that much:I champed my first 4* a year ago, and ever since that day I've never once stopped to think "hey, I got all this ISO lying around, but no covered 4*s to spend them on!" As soon as you enter 4 star land, you'll never have enough ISO to keep up with the cover flow. Sure, it's good when it's the one cover you really need, but you won't be able to champ your 4s any quicker. While I agree with you, there is this misconception that one needs to cover all the 4* in the game, which is false. I personally won't cover all the 4*, as much as I don't have all the 3*, and never will and there are 2 big reasons for this: I don't have enough space for all of them, and I don't like all of them. One may argue that you need them for requirement nodes, but please. The only rarity I have all the covers are the 2 stars, because cycling them is a good source of constant rewards. The next on the list are 5*, but this is possible because of them being still very few. But once their number will grow, there is no way I will continue to cover all of them. Why should I ocupy a space for Banner if I never use him unless I'm forced to (just an example) ? So while it's true that you are always short on ISO in 4* land, you can prioritize your targets, and you certainly can omit some of them, according to play style and preferences. That is true, but what if your play style is to have them all? I like having every character and want to have every character. Back when I had a 2* roster I kept throwing away Quicksilver covers because I didn't like him, then he was required in an event I didn't have the 4* for yet.... I missed progression on that one. I decided long ago that I wanted to roster them all, and I'm not unique in that. There are a large number of people that have all the characters, even if not to be constantly competitive. Some people are just completionists. Since my roster has expanded I even roster duplicate 3* characters for 3* farming. I have a lot more roster spots than characters in the game and I still have less than most in my alliance. So while it may be true for you to omit some characters based on your personal preference, that is not true for everyone else based on their own personal preference.
D4Ni13 said: Milk Jugz said: D4Ni13 said: bOmbast said: While the change might make it easier to gain 4* covers for more players, I'm not even sure it speeds up progress that much:I champed my first 4* a year ago, and ever since that day I've never once stopped to think "hey, I got all this ISO lying around, but no covered 4*s to spend them on!" As soon as you enter 4 star land, you'll never have enough ISO to keep up with the cover flow. Sure, it's good when it's the one cover you really need, but you won't be able to champ your 4s any quicker. While I agree with you, there is this misconception that one needs to cover all the 4* in the game, which is false. I personally won't cover all the 4*, as much as I don't have all the 3*, and never will and there are 2 big reasons for this: I don't have enough space for all of them, and I don't like all of them. One may argue that you need them for requirement nodes, but please. The only rarity I have all the covers are the 2 stars, because cycling them is a good source of constant rewards. The next on the list are 5*, but this is possible because of them being still very few. But once their number will grow, there is no way I will continue to cover all of them. Why should I ocupy a space for Banner if I never use him unless I'm forced to (just an example) ? So while it's true that you are always short on ISO in 4* land, you can prioritize your targets, and you certainly can omit some of them, according to play style and preferences. That is true, but what if your play style is to have them all? I like having every character and want to have every character. Back when I had a 2* roster I kept throwing away Quicksilver covers because I didn't like him, then he was required in an event I didn't have the 4* for yet.... I missed progression on that one. I decided long ago that I wanted to roster them all, and I'm not unique in that. There are a large number of people that have all the characters, even if not to be constantly competitive. Some people are just completionists. Since my roster has expanded I even roster duplicate 3* characters for 3* farming. I have a lot more roster spots than characters in the game and I still have less than most in my alliance. So while it may be true for you to omit some characters based on your personal preference, that is not true for everyone else based on their own personal preference. What I meant is having all covers in the game is a choice, not a requirement. Everybody chooses what is best for them.
broll said: meekersX said: I disagree with the arguments put forward in the original post. The PvP changes only slow progression in the 5* tier. We should judge the changes based on the game as it is currently, not what we hope for the future. It's not slowing mine down any....What I'm seeing is:Much easier to get the 4* (helping me finish out more of the 4* tier and be less afraid of opening CP packs due to 4* waste) - SUBJECTIVE. People who didn't need to get 40 wins before for the 4-star don't consider twice the wins necessary against the same MMR "easier". Looks like I'm finally gonna be able to complete season progression and get the 15 CP there. - 800 points per PVP event and then completing the simulator for 2K would get you 10K before. 900 wasn't hard, but fine I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that. 800 is DEFINITELY not hard for your roster. I'm not wasting any HP on shields vs 300-450 per event before so I have more to use on stores/vaults/H4H to help round out 4* and chase LTs in vaults. - Again, subjective from the outlook of someone who doesn't care about ranking anymore. People that do still care about ranking are still spending this HP. The trade off:The 15 CP per event seems more out of reach than ever (which it was pretty out of reach to me before so this is less of a loss and more of a doubling down on the status quo). - Once again subjective. "It's not relevant to where I'm at in the game right now, so who cares". If you actually are in the 5-star tier as your post implies, then it's eventually going to be relevant to you. Probably sooner than you seem to think. Lower placement will mean some loss of ISO, HP, and covers (the HP loss is negated by not shielding the ISO loss isn't much, and the covers I might miss out on some 3* covers which outside of their champ rewards aren't all that big of a loss) - Just because those 3-star covers don't mean as much to you, doesn't mean that someone who's still pushing through 3-4* transition can't use it for the champ rewards and any 3s they are not finished with. So how is this slowing down my 5* transition? It looks like there are about 4 ways I can finish off my 4*s sooner which will make CP packs less of minefield and get CP & LTs from champ rewards. I'm actually going to gain 15 more CP per season (Not counting in extra from 4* champ levels). Sure I won't get the 15 CP per event but I've gotten that a grand total of once in 1.5 years and it was looking like unitil I champ some 5*s or get my 4*s 40ish levels higher that was gonna be out of reach anyway, so that seems like more of loss after the 5* transition has started in earnest.
broll said: meekersX said: I disagree with the arguments put forward in the original post. The PvP changes only slow progression in the 5* tier. We should judge the changes based on the game as it is currently, not what we hope for the future. It's not slowing mine down any....What I'm seeing is:Easier to get the 10 CP (not that it was hard)Much easier to get the 4* (helping me finish out more of the 4* tier and be less afraid of opening CP packs due to 4* waste)Looks like I'm finally gonna be able to complete season progression and get the 15 CP there.I'm not wasting any HP on shields vs 300-450 per event before so I have more to use on stores/vaults/H4H to help round out 4* and chase LTs in vaults.The trade off:The 15 CP per event seems more out of reach than ever (which it was pretty out of reach to me before so this is less of a loss and more of a doubling down on the status quo).Lower placement will mean some loss of ISO, HP, and covers (the HP loss is negated by not shielding the ISO loss isn't much, and the covers I might miss out on some 3* covers which outside of their champ rewards aren't all that big of a loss)So how is this slowing down my 5* transition? It looks like there are about 4 ways I can finish off my 4*s sooner which will make CP packs less of minefield and get CP & LTs from champ rewards. I'm actually going to gain 15 more CP per season (Not counting in extra from 4* champ levels). Sure I won't get the 15 CP per event but I've gotten that a grand total of once in 1.5 years and it was looking like unitil I champ some 5*s or get my 4*s 40ish levels higher that was gonna be out of reach anyway, so that seems like more of loss after the 5* transition has started in earnest.
BoyWonder1914 said: broll said: meekersX said: I disagree with the arguments put forward in the original post. The PvP changes only slow progression in the 5* tier. We should judge the changes based on the game as it is currently, not what we hope for the future. It's not slowing mine down any....What I'm seeing is:Much easier to get the 4* (helping me finish out more of the 4* tier and be less afraid of opening CP packs due to 4* waste) - SUBJECTIVE. People who didn't need to get 40 wins before for the 4-star don't consider twice the wins necessary against the same MMR "easier". Looks like I'm finally gonna be able to complete season progression and get the 15 CP there. - 800 points per PVP event and then completing the simulator for 2K would get you 10K before. 900 wasn't hard, but fine I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that. 800 is DEFINITELY not hard for your roster. I'm not wasting any HP on shields vs 300-450 per event before so I have more to use on stores/vaults/H4H to help round out 4* and chase LTs in vaults. - Again, subjective from the outlook of someone who doesn't care about ranking anymore. People that do still care about ranking are still spending this HP. The trade off:The 15 CP per event seems more out of reach than ever (which it was pretty out of reach to me before so this is less of a loss and more of a doubling down on the status quo). - Once again subjective. "It's not relevant to where I'm at in the game right now, so who cares". If you actually are in the 5-star tier as your post implies, then it's eventually going to be relevant to you. Probably sooner than you seem to think. Lower placement will mean some loss of ISO, HP, and covers (the HP loss is negated by not shielding the ISO loss isn't much, and the covers I might miss out on some 3* covers which outside of their champ rewards aren't all that big of a loss) - Just because those 3-star covers don't mean as much to you, doesn't mean that someone who's still pushing through 3-4* transition can't use it for the champ rewards and any 3s they are not finished with. So how is this slowing down my 5* transition? It looks like there are about 4 ways I can finish off my 4*s sooner which will make CP packs less of minefield and get CP & LTs from champ rewards. I'm actually going to gain 15 more CP per season (Not counting in extra from 4* champ levels). Sure I won't get the 15 CP per event but I've gotten that a grand total of once in 1.5 years and it was looking like unitil I champ some 5*s or get my 4*s 40ish levels higher that was gonna be out of reach anyway, so that seems like more of loss after the 5* transition has started in earnest. Is it really THAT hard to quit looking at this change from the perspective of what it does for YOU personally as the grounds for whether this is good or bad for the overall health of the game? It truly blows my mind that people were so staunchly against increasing the number of clears required in PVE due to the increased time commitment for no increase in rewards, yet the EXACT same thing is happening to PVP - increased time commitment for the exact same rewards, and people are head over heels. What is this world coming to?
broll said: It's not slowing mine down any....What I'm seeing is:Easier to get the 10 CP (not that it was hard)Much easier to get the 4* (helping me finish out more of the 4* tier and be less afraid of opening CP packs due to 4* waste)Looks like I'm finally gonna be able to complete season progression and get the 15 CP there.I'm not wasting any HP on shields vs 300-450 per event before so I have more to use on stores/vaults/H4H to help round out 4* and chase LTs in vaults.The trade off:The 15 CP per event seems more out of reach than ever (which it was pretty out of reach to me before so this is less of a loss and more of a doubling down on the status quo).Lower placement will mean some loss of ISO, HP, and covers (the HP loss is negated by not shielding the ISO loss isn't much, and the covers I might miss out on some 3* covers which outside of their champ rewards aren't all that big of a loss)So how is this slowing down my 5* transition? It looks like there are about 4 ways I can finish off my 4*s sooner which will make CP packs less of minefield and get CP & LTs from champ rewards. I'm actually going to gain 15 more CP per season (Not counting in extra from 4* champ levels). Sure I won't get the 15 CP per event but I've gotten that a grand total of once in 1.5 years and it was looking like unitil I champ some 5*s or get my 4*s 40ish levels higher that was gonna be out of reach anyway, so that seems like more of loss after the 5* transition has started in earnest.
broll said: @Vhailorx I'm not disagreeing that the loss of CP is good or doesn't hurt anyone. I've been pretty vocal elsewhere since the first test saying that I like win based but they need to fix problems affecting the 5* tier players. My point was that i disagree on it slowing the 5* transition down, it hurts you once you make the transition and are living there. People can disagree with that impression, but as someone on the cusp of the 5* transition I feel sped up, not slowed down. Now I am slightly more hesitant about desiring to move into there because it seems like it's like driving 75km/hr and then driving your car into quicksand.
Vhailorx said: How does less cp NOT slow the 5* transition down? Transitioning into, or living in 5* land, cp/LTs are all that matter.Once you have a critical mass of 4*s (30-40 now, enough that you can always field a strong team of boosted champs), the marginal value of more 4* covers is a lot lower. Sure they are nice. And adding strong new 4*s is also nice, as is getting the best 4*s up to 350+. But all of that stuff takes a back seat to getting LT pulls by any means possible because the only way to reliably enter 5* land now is to save up 200-300 LT pulls. And the only way to keep pace with the 5* release rate is to earn about 90 LT pulls per month. 45 cp a week is about 8 pulls per month. So right off the top this change deprived a lot players of about 9% of that income.
broll said: Fair enough. From my perspective at that level 1200 is not easy or a given in the 30-40 4* roster level, but my perspective isn't necessarily right and I don't focus PvP so it's certainly perceivable that someone who put their heart into PvP could do it. That's just not my experience. I also haven't accepted how easy it is for that level because most of the most vocal people saying how easy it is at that level are people I know to be 5* players so I take it with a grain of salt.