Sacrifice the present for a better future

D4Ni13

I've read a lot of comments, feedback & critisism alike, regarding the win-based change, and while everybody has a piece of truth, I feel that an important aspect is not considered here: long term game plan & gaps between players.

MPQ has 4 big player tiers: beginners (1*,2* & 3* transitioners), middle (3* & 4* transitioners), second tier (4* & 5* transitioners), top tier (5*).

An important factor behind most of decisions in game is the gap system. In order for a game like MPQ to stay healthy and profitable, it needs to have a certain gap between every tier or players. When this gaps between tiers become too big serious problems can occur.

In the beginning of this year there was a very big gap between top tier and second tier. So in order to bring the 2 tiers closer, a 'drastic' measure was taken: Vaulting.
What Vaulting basically assured was that second tier players were forced to focus on a smaller set of 4* and cover them. Vaulting was always going to be a temporary solution until things got better. The result was wonderful: most targeted players developed a better roster quicker than before, thus starting to close the gap with the top tier.

But Vaulting, while addressing a problem, created another. It was the gap between second tier & middle tier that became larger, so this had to be address as well. How? Win-based system.

What does this system actually do ? It ensures that most of middle tier will have a better access to 4* covers, with the only drawback that they have to grind a little. The grind is there to make the second tier & top tier stay close as well. Top tier is not that interested in 4* covers, other than champion rewards, therefore they won't grind too much. By taking out the CP as ultimate rewards it also ensures a slower development from them, so what Vaulting resolved won't be broken. Second tier players have more flexibility, meaning that they would grind more than top tier, but still less than middle, as they have more champs and they won't invest the time to grind for every cover just for a level of champion. Therefore they too will stay put for a while until middle tier comes closer.

Win based system is of course temporary as well and will be replaced when the gap is fixed. Guess who's next then ? Beginners, of course. This change could trigger even more confusement & irritation because events like DDQ could be revamp & clash of titans could disappear. Or maybe they would find better solutions. Who knows ?

But why are they doing this and what are the benefits long term ? The game would stay healthier if the tiers are closer together. But the most important thing of all is because this may be the only good way to fix the 5* world without breaking the rest of the game. How so ? Well it is simple: when all tiers are close MMR can open up. If second tier become stronger they would transition to 5* and thus create more variery in 5* world (more players, more options), and in this time the middle tier will advance to second tier & top of the beginners will advance in middle.

When I played Hattrick in my youth, making a training cycle similar to what I described here was the only reliable way to advance & grow in the same time. It was tedious to begin & wait for the actual results, but it was guaranteed success.

So bear this in mind, that in order to succed in long term, you may have to sacrifice in short term. This is what MPQ is doing right now, and I believe it's for the greater good.

So I'm not saying don't complain, don't feel angry or whatever you feel & think. But just take this in consideration.

sinnerjfl

I dont see any benefits in doubling my PVP playtime for the same rewards, actually its even less because they removed the 15 CP.

This game was already too grindy, this makes it basically unbearable.

Doc L

I understand your point, and it is well made, but as one possible counter to that, I can ask you this - if PvP was so broken and difficult, and always has been (day 1453, trust me it’s always been broken), and 5* are so difficult to balance in the game in terms of competitiveness and scaling, why did they add them in in the first place, before contemplating the changes it would make to the game, when we already had competition at the 4* level and 3* level?

I agree changes are needed to improve the system, but a lot of the changes were exacerbated by the creation of 5* 18 months ago now, and, in my eyes at least, that was a money driven decision, which has created subsequent issues to them, in PvE and PvP. This was completely contradicting the greater good, and made new players even further behind the wheel.

In argument of your point about bringing the tiers closer together, I have to say I think you are wrong there (personal opinion). Without a better way to get CP, or 5*, the tiers will never be closer. You need almost 200 pulls from the Latest Legend pack currently to have a decent probability of getting a single 5* with 13 covers. If they wanted to make the tiers closer, they’d make a way of earning 5* that doesn’t rely on luck/probability. Even if you are suggesting less Cp will slow down 5* players’ growth, and more attainable 4* will speed up champion levels for 4* players, you still need 5* to compete in PvE, and I can envisage CL9 coming to PvP with compulsory 5* covers in your team, and without a route to 5* covers, no dice. I also feel the relatively easy to earn 4*/CP in progression of PvE is where middle tier players can make ground up fast. It’s what I do to keep up at the top end - play every node to the green ticks, every PvE. Use 3* Strange and 3* Thanos for most nodes, with 4* Rocket and you rinse through.

Thing is, if you have champ 4* and hit my 5* Thanos/Hawkeye combo I’m using currently, you may win, given the AI is shocking at defence, but you’ll probably need health packs. If I retaliate, I won’t need any health packs. To me, that says the tiers are miles apart.

corytutor

Thats a good point. 

At the time of 5* release there wasnt a ton of 3s and 4s. Most of us 5* guys were transitioners. They added 5s then shortly after champ levels and it should have been the otjer way around. Champs should have been a thing way before 5* , especially if they had planned to release 20 to 30 more like they did.  The meta at that time had plenty of room for growth without the need for a new tier

corytutor

Also tiers were meant to be separated. When the first 5* dropped it was surfer. You could take 3 270 4s, which was the best the game had to offer, and he would kill you by himself. I tried that playable season node multiple times a day. It was impossible.

Vhailorx

I disagree with your premise on vaulting.  

4* and 5* transitioners didnt catch up on the top tiers because of vaulting.  Sure, they may have gotten the current 12 champed, but they had to sell some vintage 4* covers to do it.  The top tier players used all the vintage 4* covers they got from finishing top 10 regularly, PLUS they got all the super powerful current 12 4*s up to 350+.  

It's entirely reasonable to argue that everyone lost ground on the top tier players as a result of vaulting.

If your underlying hypothesis is incorrect, I dont see much chance that your conclusion is on the mark as well.

(edited because I said "off the mark" instead of "on the mark")

The rockett

@D4Ni13 can you please tell us a little about yourself and your roster. How many days in?  How many champed 5*/4*?  What's your highest 5/4*?  Do you play pve and pvp competitively?  What is your Shiled Rank?  What does your ally rank for pve and pve typically?  

The reason I am asking is because I see you post a lot about some of these items and I am curious on your play style.  

broll

Vhailorx said:

I disagree with your premise on vaulting.  

4* and 5* transitioners didnt catch up on the top tiers because of vaulting.  Sure, they may have gotten the current 12 champed, but they had to sell some vintage 4* covers to do it.  The top tier players used all the vintage 4* covers they got from finishing top 10 regularly, PLUS they got all the super powerful current 12 4*s up to 350+.  

It's entirely reasonable to argue that everyone lost ground on the top tier players as a result of vaulting.

If your underlying hypothesis is incorrect, I dont see much chance that your conclusion is off the mark as well.

I completely disagree with your post.  I was pretty early in my 4* transition when vaulting came out and I feel it skyrocketed me to the point where I’m already knocking on the 5* door. I didn’t have to sell anything, no clue where that notion comes from. It gave me months of time where I got 0 4* cover / CP cover waste. Yes my vintage rates slowed but through other means (BH, 3* champ rewards, H4H, event rewards, etc) they continued to move forward at a much more predictable rate that was easily manageable. 

The theory is interesting. I personally don’t give the devs that much credit that vaulting was always temporary. 

xKOBALTx

broll said:

Vhailorx said:

The top tier players used all the vintage 4* covers they got from finishing top 10 regularly, PLUS they got all the super powerful current 12 4*s up to 350+.  

I completely disagree with your post.  I was pretty early in my 4* transition when vaulting came out and I feel it skyrocketed me to the point where I’m already knocking on the 5* door. I didn’t have to sell anything, no clue where that notion comes from. It gave me months of time where I got 0 4* cover / CP cover waste. Yes my vintage rates slowed but through other means (BH, 3* champ rewards, H4H, event rewards, etc) they continued to move forward at a much more predictable rate that was easily manageable. 

The theory is interesting. I personally don’t give the devs that much credit that vaulting was always temporary. 

In your complete disagreement, I think you're overlooking the most important piece to the counterargument. So, you made good progress on champing the latest 4*'s? Awesome. Vhail admitted as much. But tell me, if you compare your top half dozen 4*'s to a roster similar to mine which matches well to his argument (350+), did you really "close the gap" as the OP's premise states? Really?

broll

xKOBALTx said:

broll said:

Vhailorx said:

The top tier players used all the vintage 4* covers they got from finishing top 10 regularly, PLUS they got all the super powerful current 12 4*s up to 350+.  

I completely disagree with your post.  I was pretty early in my 4* transition when vaulting came out and I feel it skyrocketed me to the point where I’m already knocking on the 5* door. I didn’t have to sell anything, no clue where that notion comes from. It gave me months of time where I got 0 4* cover / CP cover waste. Yes my vintage rates slowed but through other means (BH, 3* champ rewards, H4H, event rewards, etc) they continued to move forward at a much more predictable rate that was easily manageable. 

The theory is interesting. I personally don’t give the devs that much credit that vaulting was always temporary. 

In your complete disagreement, I think you're overlooking the most important piece to the counterargument. So, you made good progress on champing the latest 4*'s? Awesome. Vhail admitted as much. But tell me, if you compare your top half dozen 4*'s to a roster similar to mine which matches well to his argument (350+), did you really "close the gap" as the OP's premise states? Really?

The OPs idea of tiers was based on rarity and not levels.  It allowed me to champ or 13 cover my way through the 4* tier faster to move into 5* tier sooner which closes the gap based on my understanding of the OPs definitions. 

wymtime

Here is the thing that the Devs and OP might not be considering.  The win  asked system helps the players who were trying to hit 900 points but were struggling to do so.  There are many players who play PVP to the 10 CP and quite because they don’t want to deal with the grind.  The real question is will these players keep going and try for the 4* at 4p wins or realize how much if a grind it is and still stop after the 10 CP.  there is such a gap between high scores in PVP and players who just play for progression.  You are going to see season scores with huge gaps between Devs see the win based system as. Way to ease the frustration fo4 players trying but struggling to hit 900 points.  The problem is they are discouraging players from playing at their top CL.  The reality is they are now doing this in PVE and PVP.  The Devs should want players to always play at their highest CL as this is the one way to seperate the tiers.  With having latest 5* as the essential and no CP in progression in PVP they are dis our aging players from playing at the top CP which keeps the overall gap between tiers wider than they would like.  They would be better off adding CL9 in PVP and having the CP in progression so 5* players play CL9 so CL 6-8 players can actually place top 10 and get the 15CP.

Vhailorx

broll said:

xKOBALTx said:

broll said:

Vhailorx said:

The top tier players used all the vintage 4* covers they got from finishing top 10 regularly, PLUS they got all the super powerful current 12 4*s up to 350+.  

I completely disagree with your post.  I was pretty early in my 4* transition when vaulting came out and I feel it skyrocketed me to the point where I’m already knocking on the 5* door. I didn’t have to sell anything, no clue where that notion comes from. It gave me months of time where I got 0 4* cover / CP cover waste. Yes my vintage rates slowed but through other means (BH, 3* champ rewards, H4H, event rewards, etc) they continued to move forward at a much more predictable rate that was easily manageable. 

The theory is interesting. I personally don’t give the devs that much credit that vaulting was always temporary. 

In your complete disagreement, I think you're overlooking the most important piece to the counterargument. So, you made good progress on champing the latest 4*'s? Awesome. Vhail admitted as much. But tell me, if you compare your top half dozen 4*'s to a roster similar to mine which matches well to his argument (350+), did you really "close the gap" as the OP's premise states? Really?

The OPs idea of tiers was based on rarity and not levels.  It allowed me to champ or 13 cover my way through the 4* tier faster to move into 5* tier sooner which closes the gap based on my understanding of the OPs definitions. 

So we will just follow that definition blindly, without regard to the actual game?  Do you really think there is no difference between a 275 carol and a 355 carol? 

Maybe you haven't seen them yet in PVP, but high level 4* champs when boosted are terrifying.  Better than 5*s in all respects except match damage. 

It's great that lots of 4* transitioners got their carol or Medusa up to 275.  Those characters have about 33k when boosted, and carol does maybe 25k with her black.  The top tier players got their carol and medusa up to 370, when boosted to 450+ Carol has  something closer to 60k health and does 50k with her black (those of you that have her that high please correct my numbers since I am sure that I am off a bit).  Do you really think you made progress by adding some 270 champs?

xKOBALTx

broll said:
The OPs idea of tiers was based on rarity and not levels.  It allowed me to champ or 13 cover my way through the 4* tier faster to move into 5* tier sooner which closes the gap based on my understanding of the OPs definitions. 

Another point where the OP's argument seems to breaks down. For the highest tier especially you can't just look at it as a rarity and ignore power levels. That fundamental misunderstanding (and others) is probably where Rockett's curiosity above comes from.

The difference between the bottom of that tier and the top is exponential. It's quite a bit different than the differences between the previous rarities and blurs that line significantly. The vaulting change allowed you faster access to become a 4* player/5* transitioner, but if the players that were already there used that same change to super-power their roster (in both 4's and 5's) how have you really closed the gap? If the premise holds and these "closer" tiers open up MMR how well are those just entering the top really going to fare?

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the devs aren't trying to bridge some of these player gaps. Nor am I saying that they shouldn't. They absolutely should be trying to do something about those transitions. However, don't be fooled into thinking that vaulting accomplished that goal.

Dotproduct

Vhailorx said:

  Do you really think you made progress by adding some 270 champs?

Yes. Not against you, it was never going to happen. But against peers since I am now semi competitive T100 in PvP vs previously T300-400 because I lucked out on some seeders.

Vhailorx

Dotproduct said:

Vhailorx said:

  Do you really think you made progress by adding some 270 champs?

Yes. Not against you, it was never going to happen. But against peers since I am now semi competitive T100 in PvP vs previously T300-400 because I lucked out on some seeders.

(Disclaimer: my highest 4* is around 307 right now, so i am not in the real MPQ upper class.  I am just a step or two behind)

You may well feel that you made progress with vaulting.  But op specifically said that the second class made progress on the third class *because* of vaulting.  That premise seems wrong to me.  Vaulting was exactly what the uberwhales needed: a way to focus their LT pulls on newer 4*s without having to waste covers in 4*s theybalready had at 370.  How then, could the vaulting change have raised the middle class vets realtive to the uber whales?

Now op also defined classes oddly, acting as though all 4*s and are equal to all other 4*s, and all 5*s are equal to all 5*s.  So i dont mean to suggest that we must all be originalists in this thread.  Just that whatever vaulting did you relative to your peers, dotproduct, this discussion is about what vaulting did for 4* and 5* transitioning vets relative to 5* players.

Zappa

The only way a gap was narrowed is if people in the higher tiers stop playing and stop spending or if a whale suddenly appeared in the 3* tier. Some 3* players may have gotten to 4* quicker, but every 4* and every 5*  has multiple champed 3*s, their existing champed 4*s + 5*s, and the ability to compete for 4* covers better in placement. This is on top of the same new opportunities those 3* players had. The same problem exists for 4*s to 5*s, except there is the additional wall of random chance and the huge dilution pool of classic 5*s.

This all falls apart at the very base - you think the devs have the foresight or planning to implement these elaborate schemes to narrow the gaps in player strength. They do not. So while it might be nice to fantasize they have a beautiful overarching plan, take a gander at the bugs forum or the history of game updates and it should paint a pretty clear picture of greed and increasing playtime rather than fun.

Milk Jugz

@Vhailorx

You are correct a 479 Carol has health in the 60k range and her black damage is in the 50k range. Mine isn't that high, but I've faced her at that level enough.

Max boosted 4s have no problem what so ever taking down 5s. I'd face a 500 5 over a 479 4. It has more to do with how the powers scale more than anything else, did you know Totally Awesome Hulk at 479 does over 8.7k damage every 3 turns when his cd expires, unless of course you get lucky enough to destroy. And don't forget about his 80k+ health pool (iirc).

I don't agree with the premise that vaulting helped any tier catch up with any other tier. Just as I don't agree that win based is going to help any tier catch up with any other tier. The hypothesis is well written, but I can't agree.

The only way any kind of gap will close is if the higher tier stops playing. Sure during vaulting I covered a bunch of the new characters faster, my top 6 4* were all latest during vaulting. But just as I covered them faster so did the tier above me, and at a faster rate than I could because they could earn resources at a faster rate than I could. So where I have 300-320 latest, they have 350-370 latest.

Sorry, nice theory, but severely flawed.

CT1888

"But just as I covered them faster so did the tier above me, and at a faster rate than I could because they could earn resources at a faster rate than I could. So where I have 300-320 latest, they have 350-370 latest."

The thing is, prior to vaulting the whales already had older characters at 350-370, whereas as a 4* player, mine were in the 270-290 range and I was struggling to cover the new characters. Yes, they got the new characters to 370 in double quick time, but I got them into the 300-320 range, surpassing my older characters and making me more competative.
However, where vaulting really paid off for me was that by halving the 3* pool I swept a big chunk of them into that sweet champion reward range, which fueled my transition to 5* land, lifting me up a tier (in this regard, the end of vaulted 3*s worked for me, as now I have the second wave coming through those rewards).

For better or for worse, vaulting launched a number of players up a tier -

As for win based being designed to reduce the gaps between the second and middle tier, then the whole thing was badly implemented, as instead a number of 5* and 4* players are spreading out through the clearance levels and road blocking lower tier players from the best rewards available to them (and probably discouraging them somewhat), so they miss out on the 3* covers that they need to progress and making the gap between middle and lower tiers even bigger.

I'll forego the 4* cover and instead get me my 3* covers (which as I say above really helped fuel my 5* transition) and those 15 CP.
Selfish? Probably.

Milk Jugz

CT1888 said:

"But just as I covered them faster so did the tier above me, and at a faster rate than I could because they could earn resources at a faster rate than I could. So where I have 300-320 latest, they have 350-370 latest."

The thing is, prior to vaulting the whales already had older characters at 350-370, whereas as a 4* player, mine were in the 270-290 range and I was struggling to cover the new characters. Yes, they got the new characters to 370 in double quick time, but I got them into the 300-320 range, surpassing my older characters and making me more competative.
However, where vaulting really paid off for me was that by halving the 3* pool I swept a big chunk of them into that sweet champion reward range, which fueled my transition to 5* land, lifting me up a tier (in this regard, the end of vaulted 3*s worked for me, as now I have the second wave coming through those rewards).

For better or for worse, vaulting launched a number of players up a tier -

As for win based being designed to reduce the gaps between the second and middle tier, then the whole thing was badly implemented, as instead a number of 5* and 4* players are spreading out through the clearance levels and road blocking lower tier players from the best rewards available to them (and probably discouraging them somewhat), so they miss out on the 3* covers that they need to progress and making the gap between middle and lower tiers even bigger.

I'll forego the 4* cover and instead get me my 3* covers (which as I say above really helped fuel my 5* transition) and those 15 CP.
Selfish? Probably.

Where to start? It seems you've simultaneously made my point and missed my point. Sure vaulting helped you get newer 4s 300-320, same with me. Got half the 3s into the sweet range, same with me. Unvaulting is pulling the other half there, same with me. Pushed you into 5* land, same with me. We agree there, however, as the OP lays out the tiers of players we made no progress on the tier above us. We didn't close any gap.

thisone

Once again, we see the stark contrast between informed opinion and uninformed opinion.

Ah internet, you truly brought out the disinformation age, where facts are less important than likes. Trump truly epitomises this does he not?

CT1888

Maybe it's a matter of perspective; to me, I bridged the gap from second tier into top tier.

Now the simplicity of the ranks in the OP don't allow for the fact that there are tiers within tiers, but as a low level 5* player, I still hold that I made ground on some of the mid and top players in 5*, in that the top guys already had 370 4* characters and I had up to 290, who crawled upwards.
Now they have 370 characters, and I have 310-320 characters - the gap is a bit narrower, and some of those characters can be viable instead of 5*s when boosted, so I can do more in the 5* realm. Not only that, but it allowed me to catch up with the 4* meta, which felt like a real narrowing of the gap.