Please reduce boss health

nexus13

Please don't change the boss health because they have no idea how much to shorten it and the event will end on Saturday at 9am if they tweek it. The first part of my weekend is too busy to keep up with this.  Just set the refreshes to 8 hours and say the event goes until the boss is down or 72 hours, whichever comes first.

babar3355

Just give us a different event... Like Avacyn's Madness or something. 

The original complaint is less about the time commitment and more about the redundancy of the same event every weekend.  Although, at least we don't have to change our decks.

bk1234

babar3355 said:

Ohboy said:

babar3355 said:

Ohboy said:

So...tell me Master of truths and destroyer of the hypotheticals... Which one does the scoreboard reflect more closely? 

Well that started about 6 posts earlier.  

And I don't know where else to go when the argument is that the event is perfectly structured and the way to enjoy it more is not to engage in it in the way it was intended by the developers.

I don't want to to point out the master of truths needs to actually be truthful, but that was a reference to a post just 2 posts before it, not 6.

And dear destroyer of hypotheticals...did you just hypothesize the developer's intentions?

Competition will always be there. It's a ranked event. Whether you want to play at your level or struggle to play what is clearly above your comfort zone is up to you. The developers didn't mean for you to torture yourself. You did it to yourself with your inane rules and impossible standards to maintain. All of which are created by you and your pals, and just as easily discarded at any time. 

I didn't say 6 Ohboy posts ago... your trolling knows no bounds.

And I already said you are correct... the developers correctly created content that was not intended to be played at the highest level.  We are all supposed to approach the competition slowly and at a leisurely pace.  Sorry we basterdized the game by trying to win..   And, I get it.. people can't honestly request changes to the event when there is a perfectly reasonable option of just quitting. We should just quit life if we don't like our current political system.  Seems better than voting or trying to effect change.

Let me also point out that I am not the one who was actually complaining about this.  Rather, I was questioning the sanity of your post that the "line" where the event ends feels about right because your coalition mates got progression after starting the event on Sunday.  But instead of admitting that the game should be coded so that is fun for all calibers of players you stand on your soapbox defending your illusionary masses. 

Again, name calling — and this time, I’m going to side with ohboy because I think you are the one trolling. He offered a different viewpoint — one that you would know quite accurately reflects the majority of the player base if you would get off your 1% throne every now and then and see what this game is like for others. 

Last weekend we brought 3 players into TR-DimMak who had never beaten Bolas. It took us all weekend of working with them to get them there and they ended with their best RotGP score ever. It’s not easy for most players to get progression in this event. 

I do think it needs to change — I think constant bugs, lowered interest because of the monotony of the repeated event and 4 hour recharges are more to blame than boss health — but any changes need to benefit the player base as a whole, not placate bored elite players. 

The event IS too long. Many players across the spectrum are bored with it. However repeatedly insulting
 ohboy because he is the leader of a top 50 coalition and can give a very different perspective is not the way to bring positive changes. 

Kinesia

I actually support the 8 hour charges, I'd like less "time" pressure. I think the 3 days should really mean roughly 3 days and this time (for the wrong reasons) it actually did.

With the bosses... I have things worked out, but even so I _want_ to try different things on some of them but don't feel safe to do so since I might fail. There's no "space" for creativity and experimentation once you start succeeding.
Since it would help beginners too I'd like it if you could "test" decks on this. Not extensively since letting people perfect things wouldn't fit the aim, but having 1 free game on each boss that you could do whenever you wanted would let people try new things and indulge their curiosity. But maybe you could scale it... Copper can have 3 free attempts, Silver 2, gold and platinum 1. (Lumping them together since some people are sitting in Gold deliberately)

babar3355

bken1234 said:

Again, name calling — and this time, I’m going to side with ohboy because I think you are the one trolling. He offered a different viewpoint — one that you would know quite accurately reflects the majority of the player base if you would get off your 1% throne every now and then and see what this game is like for others. 

Last weekend we brought 3 players into TR-DimMak who had never beaten Bolas. It took us all weekend of working with them to get them there and they ended with their best RotGP score ever. It’s not easy for most players to get progression in this event. 

I do think it needs to change — I think constant bugs, lowered interest because of the monotony of the repeated event and 4 hour recharges are more to blame than boss health — but any changes need to benefit the player base as a whole, not placate bored elite players. 

The event IS too long. Many players across the spectrum are bored with it. However repeatedly insulting
 ohboy because he is the leader of a top 50 coalition and can give a very different perspective is not the way to bring positive changes. 

This is such a shameless tactic to disparage those who were successful.  Playing, spending, and building my way to being a top player is worthy of your contempt?  Disgusting.  I expect it of Ohboy but I thought better of you.

So why not just lower the progression requirement?  Or create more content for newer players?  Or god forbid increase the drop rates so these players can actually compete more quickly?

All I have done is defended the OPs position that the same PvE event for 2+ months has resulted in waning interest and longer and longer events.  If they trim his life by 15-20% players would have roughly the same time to get progression that they had before players started losing interest.  How is that possibly considered oppressive to the player base as a whole?  

Ohboy spends more time insulting people with backhanded or snide remarks than anyone on these forums. I don't think he needs you to come to his rescue on your shining white stallion.

Kinesia

babar3355 said:

bken1234 said:

Again, name calling — and this time, I’m going to side with ohboy because I think you are the one trolling. He offered a different viewpoint — one that you would know quite accurately reflects the majority of the player base if you would get off your 1% throne every now and then and see what this game is like for others. 

Last weekend we brought 3 players into TR-DimMak who had never beaten Bolas. It took us all weekend of working with them to get them there and they ended with their best RotGP score ever. It’s not easy for most players to get progression in this event. 

I do think it needs to change — I think constant bugs, lowered interest because of the monotony of the repeated event and 4 hour recharges are more to blame than boss health — but any changes need to benefit the player base as a whole, not placate bored elite players. 

The event IS too long. Many players across the spectrum are bored with it. However repeatedly insulting
 ohboy because he is the leader of a top 50 coalition and can give a very different perspective is not the way to bring positive changes. 

This is such a shameless tactic to disparage those who were successful.  Playing, spending, and building my way to being a top player is worthy of your contempt?  Disgusting.  I expect it of Ohboy but I thought better of you.

So why not just lower the progression requirement?  Or create more content for newer players?  Or god forbid increase the drop rates so these players can actually compete more quickly?

All I have done is defended the OPs position that the same PvE event for 2+ months has resulted in waning interest and longer and longer events.  If they trim his life by 15-20% players would have roughly the same time to get progression that they had before players started losing interest.  How is that possibly considered oppressive to the player base as a whole?  

Ohboy spends more time insulting people with backhanded or snide remarks than anyone on these forums. I don't think he needs you to come to his rescue on your shining white stallion.

New players and old players need to fit in the same events. Separate content exists in terms of "Story" which is doable once only at the players own schedule and that's fine, but newcomers should be able to play most other things too. The thing that's _really_ for oldtimers are the paid Trials which are a bad plan for newbies and that's fine.
These coalition events though, they are _meant_ to be doable by everyone and have a mix. 
There are a whole bunch of different thoughts people have on what the exact problem is and some of the proposed fixes don't go together, it _will_ end up being a trade off and noone will get everything they want.

See, what _I_ want is for the 3 days to actually be close to accurate. I want the health to roughly line up with 3 days and this is the first time it has.
I very much want less time pressure, more things that I can do when _I_ can fit them in instead of being forced to play a heaps of rounds in different things every few hours, that doesn't actually fit in with working and sleeping and looking after a family.
This event isn't too bad _except_ that the level 3 bosses take a fair while to play (especially for newbies) and they recharge way too fast. It doesnt all fit together timewise. I think the level 3 bosses should only get a charge every 8 hours, level 2 every 6 hours and level 1 every 4 hours.
You can make the first one recharge a lot because it's fast to play but it also doesn't matter as much if you cap out your charges because the points are much less.

It doesn't actually matter that the event is lasting longer and longer, it matters that it's doing that _and_ maintaining the same pressure to keep constant success going, if you leave it long but relax the stress it ends up far far better.

Slower more relaxed events would help everyone, even the people who don't think they want that (because they need forcible relaxation to get their brains unstuck from hypercompetitiveness that makes them horrible people in real life).

babar3355

I 100% agree with you there.  Then again some of the same people are also defending faster node refreshes and probably the 1 card booster.  None of this makes for a more pleasant game for anyone involved.

bk1234

babar3355 said:

bken1234 said:

Again, name calling — and this time, I’m going to side with ohboy because I think you are the one trolling. He offered a different viewpoint — one that you would know quite accurately reflects the majority of the player base if you would get off your 1% throne every now and then and see what this game is like for others. 

Last weekend we brought 3 players into TR-DimMak who had never beaten Bolas. It took us all weekend of working with them to get them there and they ended with their best RotGP score ever. It’s not easy for most players to get progression in this event. 

I do think it needs to change — I think constant bugs, lowered interest because of the monotony of the repeated event and 4 hour recharges are more to blame than boss health — but any changes need to benefit the player base as a whole, not placate bored elite players. 

The event IS too long. Many players across the spectrum are bored with it. However repeatedly insulting
 ohboy because he is the leader of a top 50 coalition and can give a very different perspective is not the way to bring positive changes. 

This is such a shameless tactic to disparage those who were successful.  Playing, spending, and building my way to being a top player is worthy of your contempt?  Disgusting.  I expect it of Ohboy but I thought better of you.

So why not just lower the progression requirement?  Or create more content for newer players?  Or god forbid increase the drop rates so these players can actually compete more quickly?

All I have done is defended the OPs position that the same PvE event for 2+ months has resulted in waning interest and longer and longer events.  If they trim his life by 15-20% players would have roughly the same time to get progression that they had before players started losing interest.  How is that possibly considered oppressive to the player base as a whole?  

Ohboy spends more time insulting people with backhanded or snide remarks than anyone on these forums. I don't think he needs you to come to his rescue on your shining white stallion.

I don't come to his defense on a shining white stallion -- it's a unicorn, and she is glorious. 

You have every right to play, spend and build your way to being a top player -- I have done the same thing and I enjoy playing with my top 10 coalitions and occasionally with top 10 coalitions outside of my alliance -- I love the spirit of the game at the top. 

However, I also love playing with my top 25, 50 and 100 coalitions for very different reasons -- and I especially love sharing in their triumphs when a player has tried to beat Bolas for 2 months and finally does it on the last day of the event -- or when another player got to spend the weekend with his or her family and still gets to make progression. These are the kinds of things you encounter when you aren't in a top 10 coalition and these experiences are important to the shape of the game. I don't want to play this event until 2:30 PM on Monday -- I'm at work and have to clear 2 sets of nodes hiding in a backroom -- but I think these players should have the opportunity to succeed as well, and the longer events give them that. 

My argument is that there needs to be a happy medium. 

Also, when I see Ohboy call people names and go off his rocker to attack them -- I will say something to him as well. In this case, it wasn't him, it was you. 

Brigby

*Others have pointed it out already, but just to emphasize, please do not attack or insult other players. Thank you*

When it comes to coalition events, and their respective recharge times, it is something I definitely wish to discuss with Oktagon to learn what their perspectives are. Once they are fully familiarized with how the system works, and how to confidently manage and utilize it, then I will be sure to bring this topic up with them.

Ohboy

babar3355 said:

bken1234 said:

Again, name calling — and this time, I’m going to side with ohboy because I think you are the one trolling. He offered a different viewpoint — one that you would know quite accurately reflects the majority of the player base if you would get off your 1% throne every now and then and see what this game is like for others. 

Last weekend we brought 3 players into TR-DimMak who had never beaten Bolas. It took us all weekend of working with them to get them there and they ended with their best RotGP score ever. It’s not easy for most players to get progression in this event. 

I do think it needs to change — I think constant bugs, lowered interest because of the monotony of the repeated event and 4 hour recharges are more to blame than boss health — but any changes need to benefit the player base as a whole, not placate bored elite players. 

The event IS too long. Many players across the spectrum are bored with it. However repeatedly insulting
 ohboy because he is the leader of a top 50 coalition and can give a very different perspective is not the way to bring positive changes. 

This is such a shameless tactic to disparage those who were successful.  Playing, spending, and building my way to being a top player is worthy of your contempt?  Disgusting.  I expect it of Ohboy but I thought better of you.

For the record, I have no innate contempt for people who claw to the top. Again, I consider myself to amongst the top players. I clawed my way there. Why would I have contempt for that?

I do have utter contempt for people who think they are better than everyone else just because they got there first, and deserve to be treated specially. I downright hate people who would campaign to break a game that I love out of greed.

There are people in the middle and bottom of the tower constantly crawling up. Your throne is not guaranteed and you want to stay ahead. Great for you. Just do it by what you claim to do... Clawing your way forward, not kicking the people behind you.

Pve events were 4h recharges that lasted 3-4 days or more. That's the environment in which you built your way to the top. Now you just want to rest on your laurels and kick people below you instead of continuing your upward climb.

I will say this again. If you feel the pressures of being at the top isn't sustainable, you should consider the possibility you aren't actually a top player. At least not in the pve portion. I'm certainly not. 

bk1234

Brigby said:

*Others have pointed it out already, but just to emphasize, please do not attack or insult other players. Thank you*

When it comes to coalition events, and their respective recharge times, it is something I definitely wish to discuss with Oktagon to learn what their perspectives are. Once they are fully familiarized with how the system works, and how to confidently manage and utilize it, then I will be sure to bring this topic up with them.

Thank you @Brigby -- it means a lot that you recognize how important this issue is to us. 

Gilesclone

There are ways of dealing with this problem that can serve competitive and casual players alike. This doesn't have to be a zero sum game. 

shteev

Gilesclone said:

There are ways of dealing with this problem that can serve competitive and casual players alike. This doesn't have to be a zero sum game. 

A million times this.

JCs taught us to have very low expectations about what this game is capable of. I've seen this kind of post before:

nexus13 said:

Please don't change the boss health because they have no idea how much to shorten it and the event will end on Saturday at 9am if they tweek it.

"Please don't try and make it better because you will inevitably make it worse". nexus13 isn't alone in his opinions. Even worse, we're all just sitting around watching the game slowly disintegrate at the moment because we know the doing of maintenances won't recommence until the new dev team can fiugure out what the hell they're doing.

But there's no need to set the casuals and the competitives at each other's throats (um, again). I mean, for crying out loud, it would be the easiest thing in the world to add separation to the content experienced by both groups using, ooh, I don't know, some kind of Card Mastery system. And I'm not talking about doubling the amount of content here; I'm talking about jiggling a couple of numbers like respawn times and boss health.

Here's a couple of things to remember about the competitives, tho:

1) They spend a lot more money than the casuals. Make the 95%* happy at the expense of the 5%* all you like, but don't expect the game to accumulate any income.

2) They are ambassadors for the game. WOTC understand this, which is why they put so much money into the pro tour (and their business model isn't even the same, they're making money out of the casuals, unlike MTGPQ). Keep the people at the top of the game happy by making the game fun and rewarding them sufficiently and they will produce content way beyond what a meagre advertising budget will offer. There is a reason that the forums here are such a toxic swamp, and it isn't just because I've got Aggressive Untargetted Borderline Personality Disorder And Ting.


[*estimated statistics used]

Ohboy

I keep hearing about the top players spending the lion share of the income in the game which is so counterintuitive.

I get that you estimated the stats. Fine, because there's no real way to know. But is there an actual smidgen of data that you based that estimate on?

Something like : I talked to my pals in the top coalition and interviewed a casual coalition and found that for dollar spent by the casual coalition, my coalition spends 20 times as much. 

Thésée

Gilesclone said:

There are ways of dealing with this problem that can serve competitive and casual players alike. This doesn't have to be a zero sum game. 

That is really well said. I didn't meant to start a storm at all, just to express my dislike of the current situation. Game should be fun for everyone.

shteev

Ohboy said:

I keep hearing about the top players spending the lion share of the income in the game which is so counterintuitive.

Ok, I admit this this is an assumption that I'm making, but I think it's a fair one to make. Let's unpack it a bit.

Here's the evidence first, which I'm using to draw my inference from.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mobile+games+whales+income+percentage&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=x9TdWZTWNqnVXte2ntAP

The mobile games industry is kept afloat by less than 1% of users

Half of all mobile games money comes from 0.19% of users

Infographic: 'Whales' Account for 70% of In-App Purchase Revenue

It seems to be a well known fact that a small percentage of players account for the vast majority of the revenue in a mobile game... we're all aware of this, surely.

It doesn't seem at all counterintuitive to me that that small percentage of players who pay for a high number of broken power cards like Baral, or Olivia, or Gisela or Angel of Sanctions should win a hell of a lot of their games.

It also seems like a reasonable assumption that a majority of that small percentage of players take the game very seriously, otherwise, why would they pay so much money for it? We've no doubt got a few millionaires playing who can throw money at the game without a second thought and not care about it, but I'm in a top 10 coalition and I don't know any players like that (admittedly, my ties to ther other top 10 coalitions are not as strong as they once were).

Ohboy

shteev said:

Ohboy said:

I keep hearing about the top players spending the lion share of the income in the game which is so counterintuitive.

Ok, I admit this this is an assumption that I'm making, but I think it's a fair one to make. Let's unpack it a bit.

Here's the evidence first, which I'm using to draw my inference from.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mobile+games+whales+income+percentage&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=x9TdWZTWNqnVXte2ntAP

The mobile games industry is kept afloat by less than 1% of users

Half of all mobile games money comes from 0.19% of users

Infographic: 'Whales' Account for 70% of In-App Purchase Revenue

It seems to be a well known fact that a small percentage of players account for the vast majority of the revenue in a mobile game... we're all aware of this, surely.

It doesn't seem at all counterintuitive to me that that small percentage of players who pay for a high number of broken power cards like Baral, or Olivia, or Gisela or Angel of Sanctions should win a hell of a lot of their games.

It also seems like a reasonable assumption that a majority of that small percentage of players take the game very seriously, otherwise, why would they pay so much money for it? We've no doubt got a few millionaires playing who can throw money at the game without a second thought and not care about it, but I'm in a top 10 coalition and I don't know any players like that (admittedly, my ties to ther other top 10 coalitions are not as strong as they once were).

I'd like to challenge your assumptions.

1) winning a hell lot of games does not make them top players. Or even top coalition players. I know a few who win a lot of games only when they bother playing. These players can easily be distributed amongst the lower coalitions as casual players.

2) players already at the top benefit less from these power cards. With or without them, they always win a hell lot of games. They have less incentive to buy these cards.

3) granted I'm not as privy to the mindset of the upper echelon players like you are, but I do see casual players who buy cards not to win, but for the thrill of using them. Your premise that only serious players will buy cards is flawed. 

shteev

Ohboy said:

I'd like to challenge your assumptions.

1) winning a hell lot of games does not make them top players. Or even top coalition players. I know a few who win a lot of games only when they bother playing. These players can easily be distributed amongst the lower coalitions as casual players.

If winning a hell of a lot of games doesn't make someone a competitive player, then what does? What are the other alternatives? Losing a lot of games? Not playing a lot of games? Quitting a lot of games?

Pull back a second. Are you saying, you know casual gamers who win a lot of games? That's probably true, but I'm not sure it's pertinent to this specific discussion about whether whales tend to be competitive or casual. Do you know casual gamers who win a lot of games who are also whales? Do you know casual gamers who win *a hell* of a lot of games? If these gamers are playing for more than a couple of hours every single day, are they perhaps, not casual gamers, regardless of whether they are in a top 10 coalition?



Hmm.. thinking about it... I could win a lot of games if I wanted to, and I barely play these days. Am I casual now? In which case... as a casual gamer, let's have 8 hour respawns back and less boss health!

Ohboy said:

2) players already at the top benefit less from these power cards. With or without them, they always win a hell lot of games. They have less incentive to buy these cards.

3) granted I'm not as privy to the mindset of the upper echelon players like you are, but I do see casual players who buy cards not to win, but for the thrill of using them.

I see this in the upper echelons as well; I'd not really describe the behaviour of my team-mates as casual, tho. They may not need these cards to win games, but they buy them to get even more play out of the game and they experiment hard with them to build powerful, overpowered, or even broken decks. The term 'casual' doesn't seem to apply to their spending habits, and tho it's debatable whether you could call this behaviour 'competitive', I think it might be fair to call it 'hardcore', which is another term used to describe the polar opposite of 'casual'.



Your premise that my premise is that only serious players will buy cards is flawed.is flawed.

My premise is that the majority of players that spend significant amounts of money on the game will be serious. Some, indeed, might be converted from casual players who barely play, to competitive, or hardcore players who play a lot, as a direct result of spending money on cards which they end up wanting to play a lot with.



[edit] This whole argument is getting a bit weird for me, because, thinking about it, this thread was started by competitive players who want to play less, and they were being rebuked by casual players who want to play more. But i feel like we're covering some useful ground, so I'm just going to roll with it.

Skiglass6

This situation was created by the game decision makers. Top score of RaTC in my coalition was 935. This score, I believe, is as more than double progression at that time.  So now they have almost double the games played for the event (I do not think they changed ribbon rewards). Help me here.  They added a basic booster, some runes and took away occasional specific rare reward from the profession.  All of this outrage should be pointed at them.  They have doubled this event and given us nothing. 

babar3355

Gilesclone said:

There are ways of dealing with this problem that can serve competitive and casual players alike. This doesn't have to be a zero sum game. 

I should be more succinct.  This is what I was trying to express the entire thread.  It doesn't have to be them vs. us.