Space Gem Season Character Updates *Updated (8/23/17)

135

Comments

  • GritsNGravy
    GritsNGravy Posts: 114 Tile Toppler
    Not a fan of the Kingpin changes, seems like a nerf, his black now adds a "can't use unless countdown timer on the board"?  That sucks.
  • evade420
    evade420 Posts: 440 Mover and Shaker
    Just get ready for a nerf to countdown tiles that repeat
  • sinnerjfl
    sinnerjfl Posts: 1,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2017
    Why are you changing Kingpin's black so much? He now does the same dmg but it costs + 2 AP... ****?

    No wait, it does a massive 1k more dmg for +2 AP...   what a buff!

    Not sure who thought KP's black was too strong, and now you NEED a CD... 

  • Thanos
    Thanos Posts: 722 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2017
    Yes, Kingpins black just got a nerf. Why'd they even mess with him in the first place? There's so many other characters that are in need of buffing. Ghost rider still looks mediocre, they could've at least fortified his red ability tile. Also, his green isn't so good that it needs to start at 12. I guess they set it that high cause his obvious pairing is with cardusa and the cost will almost always be 6. Sigh...theres always next season.
  • Felonius
    Felonius Posts: 289 Mover and Shaker

    I think GR is a solid buff overall.  Green is still meh, but Red and Black both got better.  Still probably not top-tier by himself, but he's going to team well with the current Medusa and/or Carol meta.  Thumbs Up!

    Kingpin on the other hand... I think that black change is a nerf... Increasing the AP cost, and making it require a CD Tile?  I understand the damage was increased, but only ~1k, not really significantly.  The Team damage with three CD Tiles is ok, I guess... 

    A better way to buff KP's black?  Leave as it was (no CD Tile Damage, +Damage w/1-CD Tile) and add the 3-CD Tile Team damage you've added now.  This sort of versatility would seem appropriate for the master strategist, Kingpin.


    I love the idea of the System Reboot event.  I look forward to playing it for ISO and covers.  As someone else mentioned, it would be great if a similar event was available for all new cover releases.

  • STOPTHIS
    STOPTHIS Posts: 781 Critical Contributor
    Man. What a change the numbers make. I thought these all sounded good on paper, but after seeing the final numbers they feel weak. Especially KP. Dude just got nerfed for no reason.
  • Bruinsfan17
    Bruinsfan17 Posts: 132 Tile Toppler
    Ya those numbers are very underwhelming for both. I wouldn't call either one a buff per say. They both just got a rework more or less. KPs black would have been better if it didn't remove the CD tiles if there were more than 3. I was excited to see KP was getting a change because I have 2 covers on the vine and was gonna champ him next in hopes the changes would be very good. May hold off now. Not overly impressed.
  • carrion_pigeons
    carrion_pigeons Posts: 942 Critical Contributor
    Okay.

    At 5 covers, GR's green does about 40% more damage, i.e. about 1k more team damage than before.  Let's compare to, say, Kamala Khan.  Her green also costs 12, is actually easier to battery out (because her purple does it directly instead of GR needing to wait multiple turns after using his red), and does ~600 more team damage.  She's in the tier *below* Ghost Rider.

    Now, I'll be the first to grant that you can't just directly compare two abilities without comparing the overall characters, but if you had asked me what a 270 4* aoe for 12 AP ought to look like, I'd have said something in the range of 5-6k.  Not half that.  The fact that his ability was pathetic before should indicate that a 40% boost to damage and an 80% boost to cost is not really appropriate.  It isn't even a buff at all.

    So the mana cost can still be reduced, and that's what we have to look at for any hope of this being playable.  He can't reduce the cost himself: 8 red to reduce the cost of the ability (eventually) by 6 green is not actually a cost reduction, unless you manage to cast it a bunch of times.  That basically reduces him to the sidekick of some other attack tile generator like Medusa or Carnage.  Except those characters already have better combo partners (specifically each other).  So that's a pretty disappointing niche.

    You can minimize the impact by going to 3 green covers, which means he only does ~250 more team damage than live.  But Penance Stare is too niche of an ability to justify going to 5 covers in it under normal circumstances; it will frequently do nothing.  So you're basically stuck with a green ability that is arguably worse than it was before, under all but the most idealized of scenarios.

    His red, right now, does 1810 damage and makes a 235 attack tile, every two turns.  The new one does 2200 damage *once*, right off the bat, and then makes 324 worth of strike tiles every turn after that.  This is clearly a buff, if only because the damage spreads out across more tiles faster, making it harder to deal with.  But it isn't exactly a big buff.  If you take a wild guess that a Hellfire CD stays on the board for an average of 4 turns, this new version ends up doing pretty much the same damage as the old version, and it doesn't do enough damage to actually impress until it's been on the board for 6 or more turns, which seems both optimistic and like an agonizingly long amount of time to me.

    So yeah, I'm going to go ahead and say that calling these changes a buff to Ghost Rider is being very loose with the word.  The averages cases have gotten mildly worse, if anything, and while he'll perform in highly specialized situations, he already did that.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kingpin black is noticeably worse than before.  Less single target damage, more expensive, and it destroys 3 cds to do moderate aoe damage.  And can it even be used without a cd on the board?.  Just terrible!  I am stunned.  This is on par with the carnage "buff" that make his black active.

    GR isn't actively crippled, but the numbers remain much to low.  Best case scenario for green is 6ap for less than 3k aoe (or less than 6k when boosted), and only after making 6 attack tiles!  That is ok, but what is the point?  There are aoe powers almost as efficient out there with no pre-conditions and better other abilities.  I can see him being useful for quickly clearing trivial nodes when boosted, but we already have thanos for that.  
  • jamesh
    jamesh Posts: 1,600 Chairperson of the Boards
    Felonius said:

    I love the idea of the System Reboot event.  I look forward to playing it for ISO and covers.  As someone else mentioned, it would be great if a similar event was available for all new cover releases.

    I'm wondering if the System Reboot even will even have any story specific to Ghost Rider and Kingpin.  From what was written above, it could slot any character into when they undergo a balance change.

    Overall, it seems like a good idea when they're also offering higher sell back prices on the characters: let players find out whether the the change is good or bad for themselves first.
  • mega ghost
    mega ghost Posts: 1,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2017
    I was really excited for both of these changes, but now I'm less enthusiastic. Kingpin's yellow isn't significantly better and his black gave up too much (increased AP cost, removal of additional countdown tiles, and an inability to fire it without meeting conditions.) It will perform well with Star-Lord against goons, but now he performs worse as a stand-alone character.

    I'd be happy with his changes if they made one more tweak: add a passive component to his yellow that generates 1 black AP every time a friendly countdown is matched away or destroyed. Since at least half of the goon countdowns from his yellow meet this fate before firing, this would help give him the boost he needs while also playing even more into the concept of him being a strategist that sacrifices his pawns.
  • mega ghost
    mega ghost Posts: 1,156 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2017
    As for Ghost Rider, his changes are good but feel a little underwhelming. I do think his green will cost less than 12 AP and be cheap more often than not, especially if you pair him with another attack tile generator, so I think that ability is set. His black is extremely conditional, but is solid in boss fights and difficult PvP matches.

    Everything really hinges on his red being a strong performer. The best way to ensure this would be to either: a) fortify the countdown tile if it is a random placement, or b) don't fortify it, but let us choose where to place it. Fortifying it is probably too much of a buff since it stays on the board until it gets matched away or destroyed, but letting us choose where to place it helps protect against it immediately going to waste without making it overpowered.

    @Brigby I am correct in assuming that his red countdown is still randomly placed, right? 
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,812 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phew glad I held off on the ISO until the numbers came in. Will ignore both again until I have no backlog.
  • Yoik
    Yoik Posts: 251 Mover and Shaker

    Burning Rubber
    The cost has been increased to 12 Green AP (from 7). Damage has been significantly increased


    Has it? I don't think that is significant. I was expecting 6 or 7 k


    GR needed a tweak as he was a one trick pony but KP they have made worse.

  • D4Ni13
    D4Ni13 Posts: 745 Critical Contributor
    As a guy who doesn't like KP and sold him a while ago, the changes make no difference in my current opinion about him. That being said, I think they wanted a bit more synergy between his powers without changing his power too much. He could work well with all heroes that have CD tiles, including Coulson, War Machine, Drax, Winter Soldier, Peggy, etc. 

    As for Ghost Rider, maybe the numbers feel underwhelming on paper, but paired well I think he is going to hit like a truck. His red feeds the green, but that's  not all. The real value here is not in the AoE or red initial damage, but in attack tile generation. 2 attack tiles a turn is huge in a meta with Carol, Medusa or R&G. Even Gamora helps him a lot to shine. I don't think he will become a constant figure in the meta, but when he will appear, he will be impactful.
  • DrDevilDinosaur
    DrDevilDinosaur Posts: 436 Mover and Shaker
    Vhailorx said:
    Kingpin black is noticeably worse than before.  Less single target damage, more expensive, and it destroys 3 cds to do moderate aoe damage.  And can it even be used without a cd on the board?.  Just terrible!  I am stunned.  This is on par with the carnage "buff" that make his black active.
    The second Carnage rework taught us that the devs are willing to revisit this kind of decision in the next season, as long as we get on Discord and tell them what we think.

    I guess it's time for me to get Discord.
  • Dragon_Nexus
    Dragon_Nexus Posts: 3,701 Chairperson of the Boards
    On the one hand, GR's green did get a significant damage increase. It's doubled.
    On the other hand, double of not a lot is still not a lot.

    And I'll really miss his red countdown doing damage every few turns.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    carrion pigeons said:
    Okay.

    Now, I'll be the first to grant that you can't just directly compare two abilities without comparing the overall characters, but if you had asked me what a 270 4* aoe for 12 AP ought to look like, I'd have said something in the range of 5-6k.  Not half that.  The fact that his ability was pathetic before should indicate that a 40% boost to damage and an 80% boost to cost is not really appropriate.  It isn't even a buff at all.


    Why would you expect 5-6k AoE from a 4* power for 12 AP? Neither Full or Surprises or Striking Distance do anywhere near that much. The only 4* AOE powers that do that much damage do so conditionally, or with drawbacks. And none of them have AP-reduction mechanics, which I would argue is better than AP generation in a lot of cases, since you can fire them more than once and retain the cost reduction. Burning Rubber even generates its own attack tiles. (And just never mind if either side has Carnage out).

    Definitely not impressed with the Wilson's Gambit change. Can't be fired without CDs on the board, 18 AP to manufacture his own AOE (and imagine how **** that'll feel against only one opponent), and now the tiles he creates have been improved so there's more opportunity cost than ever before for consuming them. AND the Maggia Pawns tiles resolve faster so you've got one less turn to gather that 8 Black AP.

    I guess 3/5/5 is the new Kingpin build for everyone.

    @Brigby
    Your teaser implied that ALL Countdown tiles for Maggia Pawns had improved effect, but the numbers preview seems to show that the "Sniper" tiles do the same damage as before (although a turn faster). Is that correct?
  • therightwaye
    therightwaye Posts: 459 Mover and Shaker
    edited August 2017
    The new Kingpin had promise, sad to see that promise wash away. I'm going to assume that this Kingpin update is a reflection of him being in prison now. Shame.



    The problem is obviously Wilson's Gambit. Which costs two more AP and is harder to fire (now requiring a CD tile, right?). Not to mention that per AP the damage is less. And now you're also likely to burn through more CD tiles before they pop, making his yellow power even less fun.  Sad.

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