What is the true value of vaulted characters?

JackTenrec

Jarvind said:

Warbringa said:

4.) Required characters - whereas before in PvE, having a larger diversified roster gave you the advantage that you would have more of the required characters and perhaps have them covered better.  Now it appears that only current token characters will be required characters for the most part in this new environment.

Is this accurate? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just curious because I hadn't noticed if this is how it works now.

War Machine was the required 4* in today's DDQ Big Burrito, so vaulted characters are still a requirement if you don't want to get locked out of some content.

broll

Jarvind said:

Warbringa said:

4.) Required characters - whereas before in PvE, having a larger diversified roster gave you the advantage that you would have more of the required characters and perhaps have them covered better.  Now it appears that only current token characters will be required characters for the most part in this new environment.

Is this accurate? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just curious because I hadn't noticed if this is how it works now.

There seems to be a strong pattern emerging that we only see a vaulted character (4*s at least, not sure on 3*s) required every 1 in 3-4 events.  The Token 12 characters are trending to come up 2-3 (maybe more) times before they move out of the 12 while we won't get through all vaulted in a year.

I haven't seen anything official on this but I've seen a few threads speculating about it.

Spidurman27

PVE I don't care who if anyone I have boosted - it plays itself, and I'm using specialist teams for many nodes.  

PVP I would immediately boost someone to 270 for if I needed them.  I have 10 vaulted nonchamps and just little to no point.  Even the mighty hulkbuster is being ignored - he'd be #3 this week and I'll just run icy/x or pun/y and save 335k iso.   

I both love and hate having this kind of depth.  It plus hoarding for 5* leaves me very much in autopilot mode.   Not sure if I like it.   

DapperChewie

I am at the point now where I routinely have 3 champed 4s powered up for every event. Without the old ones, this wouldn't happen.

I love using the old ones, they're fun and add variety to the game. I do with bonus heroes would proc more often though, we need to have more or easier access to vaulted 4s.

Straycat

I feel like this is conflating the value of vaulted characters with overall criticism of vaulting. The pros listed on the OP apply to any 4* character, and the cons mainly apply to vaulting itself.
IMO There are only a few pros or cons specific to having any random vaulted 4* a) rostered or b) champed. The only cons are sunk resources and the opportunity cost form spending those resources.

Pros   -Behemoth Burrito, not having the required 4 would cost 2 cp, maybe some iso and a taco token
          -Vaulted cover sources, such as resupply, progression, boss events, or 3* champ rewards. Covers earned from non RNG sources wouldn't be wasted

Cons
-1000 hp
If champed
-375k iso

The rest of the pros and cons could apply to any 4*. I don't put too much stock into power creep since in the end most characters fall into either Great, Solid, or Good only when Boosted tiers. And in Deadpool vs MPQ right now, only Carol is boosted since she is required and the rest are vaulted. The bigger problem with power creep would be if someone with the same abilities does them better to render one specific character redundant, but so far that hasn't really happened.
Ultimately the value of a character depends on your goals, and whether or not it helps you reach those goals. I want to collect them all and enjoy playing different teams, so they're probably more valuable to me than to others.
If you are started the 4* transition after vaulting, they are probably useless.

NewMcG

Starfury said:

New McG said:

Starfury said:

However, when unboosted they'll be quickly relegated to the bottom of the pack since you can expect them to stay in the low 270s for the rest of their existence (it's been 4 months since vaulting and 2 months since "we're looking at it") while newer characters are probably going to end up around 290 for a non-casual player

I think this estimate may be a bit on the low end. I finished covering and champed Carol and Bl4de basically right as the vaulting system got implemented. Both are now within a couple covers of 300. I'm not one who typically plays to a placement 4* in any non-release events, so this is almost entirely from token pulls in the span of vaulting. (With the 3 Carol covers from Sinister 6 in there as well.)

Hobofist will probably be the first real test case, since he released within the vaulting system, so he'll have a whole 7-8ish months to accumulate champ levels. Mine is at 280 now, with X amount of months to go. (Under the old system, my Hobofist would most likely be closer to 9-10 covers and around level 200, given typical draw rates.) Once we get toward the end of the year I guess we'll start to see how the new system compares for champ rewards.

I used non-casual as in "someone who plays enough to actually be able to champ a 4* every 2-3 weeks"
I think you'd qualify as a step above "non-casual"

Anyway, the more someone plays, the bigger the gap between pre-vaulting and post-vaulting characters.

There are definitely levels. I may play a little more than most (typically to green checks in PVE, 575 PVP) but I probably fit the definition you put forward almost exactly. When vaulting hit, I began pretty quickly finishing off covering most of the token 4*s, and was able to champ one of them pretty much every 2 to 3 weeks. Now I need 1 blue R&G and 4-5 covers of Sandman to finish off the current pool.

But, I also strategized about what order to finish characters, and prioritized "time left in the token pool" as my #1 factor. It means someone like Mordo got finished while Wasp did not, but the handful of Mordo covers I didn't have to sell will mean extra levels on the back end of his champion numbers, and I still need to finish off Wasp, instead of having her at 273ish when she rotated out. (Luckily, since I'm basically up to date on current 4*s, I can realistically start putting iso into her at some point.)

Starfury

New McG said:

Starfury said:

New McG said:

Starfury said:

However, when unboosted they'll be quickly relegated to the bottom of the pack since you can expect them to stay in the low 270s for the rest of their existence (it's been 4 months since vaulting and 2 months since "we're looking at it") while newer characters are probably going to end up around 290 for a non-casual player

I think this estimate may be a bit on the low end. I finished covering and champed Carol and Bl4de basically right as the vaulting system got implemented. Both are now within a couple covers of 300. I'm not one who typically plays to a placement 4* in any non-release events, so this is almost entirely from token pulls in the span of vaulting. (With the 3 Carol covers from Sinister 6 in there as well.)

Hobofist will probably be the first real test case, since he released within the vaulting system, so he'll have a whole 7-8ish months to accumulate champ levels. Mine is at 280 now, with X amount of months to go. (Under the old system, my Hobofist would most likely be closer to 9-10 covers and around level 200, given typical draw rates.) Once we get toward the end of the year I guess we'll start to see how the new system compares for champ rewards.

I used non-casual as in "someone who plays enough to actually be able to champ a 4* every 2-3 weeks"
I think you'd qualify as a step above "non-casual"

Anyway, the more someone plays, the bigger the gap between pre-vaulting and post-vaulting characters.

There are definitely levels. I may play a little more than most (typically to green checks in PVE, 575 PVP) but I probably fit the definition you put forward almost exactly. When vaulting hit, I began pretty quickly finishing off covering most of the token 4*s, and was able to champ one of them pretty much every 2 to 3 weeks. Now I need 1 blue R&G and 4-5 covers of Sandman to finish off the current pool.

But, I also strategized about what order to finish characters, and prioritized "time left in the token pool" as my #1 factor. It means someone like Mordo got finished while Wasp did not, but the handful of Mordo covers I didn't have to sell will mean extra levels on the back end of his champion numbers, and I still need to finish off Wasp, instead of having her at 273ish when she rotated out. (Luckily, since I'm basically up to date on current 4*s, I can realistically start putting iso into her at some point.)

So you'd get per week:
2 4* from PvE progression,
80 (2*33 + 7*2) CP from PvE,
30 CP from PvP
14 CP from DDQ
=> 8 covers per week when pulling from Classics

300 within 36 weeks => 43*12 = 510 covers => 14 covers per week

I'm not doubting your evidence (I'm also trending above that 290 mark), but I just don't see where those missing 6 4* per week are coming from. Do we really get ~15 cp per day from champing and other sources?

NewMcG

Starfury said:

New McG said:

Starfury said:

New McG said:

Starfury said:

However, when unboosted they'll be quickly relegated to the bottom of the pack since you can expect them to stay in the low 270s for the rest of their existence (it's been 4 months since vaulting and 2 months since "we're looking at it") while newer characters are probably going to end up around 290 for a non-casual player

I think this estimate may be a bit on the low end. I finished covering and champed Carol and Bl4de basically right as the vaulting system got implemented. Both are now within a couple covers of 300. I'm not one who typically plays to a placement 4* in any non-release events, so this is almost entirely from token pulls in the span of vaulting. (With the 3 Carol covers from Sinister 6 in there as well.)

Hobofist will probably be the first real test case, since he released within the vaulting system, so he'll have a whole 7-8ish months to accumulate champ levels. Mine is at 280 now, with X amount of months to go. (Under the old system, my Hobofist would most likely be closer to 9-10 covers and around level 200, given typical draw rates.) Once we get toward the end of the year I guess we'll start to see how the new system compares for champ rewards.

I used non-casual as in "someone who plays enough to actually be able to champ a 4* every 2-3 weeks"
I think you'd qualify as a step above "non-casual"

Anyway, the more someone plays, the bigger the gap between pre-vaulting and post-vaulting characters.

There are definitely levels. I may play a little more than most (typically to green checks in PVE, 575 PVP) but I probably fit the definition you put forward almost exactly. When vaulting hit, I began pretty quickly finishing off covering most of the token 4*s, and was able to champ one of them pretty much every 2 to 3 weeks. Now I need 1 blue R&G and 4-5 covers of Sandman to finish off the current pool.

But, I also strategized about what order to finish characters, and prioritized "time left in the token pool" as my #1 factor. It means someone like Mordo got finished while Wasp did not, but the handful of Mordo covers I didn't have to sell will mean extra levels on the back end of his champion numbers, and I still need to finish off Wasp, instead of having her at 273ish when she rotated out. (Luckily, since I'm basically up to date on current 4*s, I can realistically start putting iso into her at some point.)

So you'd get per week:
2 4* from PvE progression,
80 (2*33 + 7*2) CP from PvE,
30 CP from PvP
14 CP from DDQ
=> 8 covers per week when pulling from Classics

300 within 36 weeks => 43*12 = 510 covers => 14 covers per week

I'm not doubting your evidence (I'm also trending above that 290 mark), but I just don't see where those missing 6 4* per week are coming from. Do we really get ~15 cp per day from champing and other sources?

Well, there will be the earned LT from any 4* DDQ Crash. Champ reward LT every 10 levels for a 4*. Fortunate vault pulls. Champ rewards probably throw in a surprisingly decent flow of CP which goes unnoticed, since it isn't generally huge numbers. (I'm hitting the point with 3* champ levels that I'm seeing come 5 CP rewards here and there.) Depending on how you allocate your BH pulls, that can factor in here and there, too. (I typically keep a current 4* I don't have at 13 covers as a BH until I get to 5 in one color.) None of them are huge things, but it could certainly see it adding up to 5-6 covers a week.

And when you subtract 1 or 2 from the required total to factor in character release events (I'm guessing the type of "non-casual" we're talking about can get top 100 in a release event and then grab the progression cover in the next event) that takes the total down by a couple more per character. None of this is rock-solid math, given the fickleness of RNGsus, but I don't think 300 is an unreasonable idea of where champed 4s can end up in the new system for someone who isn't playing an insane amount for placement and the like.

Evilgenius9

dramatist said:

I am the epitome of a 4* transitioner. I have 26 of 52 4*s champed. I max progression in PvE and dabble in PvP.  Since vaulting started I have championed 3 vaulted 4*s (Iceman, Starlord and Nova). But I have four more at 13 covers with Punisher getting cover 13 from a resupply soon.

So I am getting covers still faster than I get the Iso-8 to champ characters. I want to champ all the 4*s. I'm trying to focus on the latest 12 because that's where the vast majority of covers come from but if I get cover 14 for a vaulted 4* they take priority. 

The reality of the situation is that as I grow my roster and days played in get more 4* covers than ever. I hoard latest and CPs to slow down my 4* draw rate because it's always Iso that is holding my roster back.

I am a little behind you with only 20 4*'s champed, but I have decided to move on. My goal now is to get any 4*'s that aren't to be clash capable, champ a couple of old 4*'s (peggy and iceman), but otherwise my iso is going into 5*'s. I am hoarding latest lt's because I don't like the current set if 5*'s, but other than that I am opening classics amd dumping iso to equal level all 5*'s that I have at least 3 covers for. I have oml at lvl 285 and 7 others at 270, so a long way away from changing any scaling - but I guess that makes me a slow 5* transitioner. I just realize the game to champ all 4*'s, while it would be nice is probably out of reach due to iso constraints. 

Sendikelm

Starfury said:

So you'd get per week:
2 4* from PvE progression,
80 (2*33 + 7*2) CP from PvE,
30 CP from PvP
14 CP from DDQ
=> 8 covers per week when pulling from Classics

300 within 36 weeks => 43*12 = 510 covers => 14 covers per week

I'm not doubting your evidence (I'm also trending above that 290 mark), but I just don't see where those missing 6 4* per week are coming from. Do we really get ~15 cp per day from champing and other sources?

I'm tracking all my resources so I can show you my average weekly income:  15 4*, 10 LT, 250 CP (and this is without using that LT and CP - hoarding mode on now).

For reference I'm non-casual player (lol) in very good alliance (T10 PVE and T50 PVP) but not very competitive: usually T10-T20 PVP with 900-1000 pts and T20-T50 PVE for all that XP).

Starfury

New McG said:

Well, there will be the earned LT from any 4* DDQ Crash. Champ reward LT every 10 levels for a 4*. Fortunate vault pulls. Champ rewards probably throw in a surprisingly decent flow of CP which goes unnoticed, since it isn't generally huge numbers. (I'm hitting the point with 3* champ levels that I'm seeing come 5 CP rewards here and there.) Depending on how you allocate your BH pulls, that can factor in here and there, too. (I typically keep a current 4* I don't have at 13 covers as a BH until I get to 5 in one color.) None of them are huge things, but it could certainly see it adding up to 5-6 covers a week.

And when you subtract 1 or 2 from the required total to factor in character release events (I'm guessing the type of "non-casual" we're talking about can get top 100 in a release event and then grab the progression cover in the next event) that takes the total down by a couple more per character. None of this is rock-solid math, given the fickleness of RNGsus, but I don't think 300 is an unreasonable idea of where champed 4s can end up in the new system for someone who isn't playing an insane amount for placement and the like.

Forgot about the Crash, that's 1.4 additional LT per week, moving up my total to ~9.5 pulls.
4* champ rewards add another 10% of 4* numbers, so you'd need around 12.5 pulls to arrive at the 14 number

I deliberately excluded the 4* releases because once every cycle you also get a vaulted 4* as progression reward -> that's included in the 2 weekly progression covers.
I also ignored 4* covers from heroic / event tokens. My idea is that those make up about the same number of non-vaulted 4* covers as you lose by drawing 5* from tokens.

But yeah, I guess alliance purchase rewards, the occasional Shield resupply and mostly champ rewards could add up to ~10cp per day

Sendikelm said:

I'm tracking all my resources so I can show you my average weekly income:  15 4*, 10 LT, 250 CP (and this is without using that LT and CP - hoarding mode on now).

For reference I'm non-casual player (lol) in very good alliance (T10 PVE and T50 PVP) but not very competitive: usually T10-T20 PVP with 900-1000 pts and T20-T50 PVE for all that XP).

Thanks for those numbers. (15 4* covers??? ) I have to say that I would qualify you too as a wee bit above just "non-casual"

Anyway, the discussion has been quite informative, but pretty far off topic, so I'll end it here.

Warbringa

Jarvind said:

Warbringa said:

4.) Required characters - whereas before in PvE, having a larger diversified roster gave you the advantage that you would have more of the required characters and perhaps have them covered better.  Now it appears that only current token characters will be required characters for the most part in this new environment.

Is this accurate? I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just curious because I hadn't noticed if this is how it works now.

No this isn't confirmed but it is a trend I have noticed in the past 2 months approximately.  The only counter I have to this is that Beast was a 3* progression rewards in the recent alliance event but wasn't really a required character either given the nature of the event (perhaps he was required for a sub node?).  I can't remember the last time we received a vaulted 4* in progression from a PvE.  I will do some digging in the events section to find out.

Ok Desert Tortoise has done the work already, here is a link to the post in the Events section:

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/65706/pve-4-star-essentials-tracking-theory/p1

Mr. Fantastic was a 4* vaulted cover several PvE's back.  It appears that we have been getting a vaulted 4* every 4 or 5 PvE's over the past few months.  So it still seems that current characters will be heavily featured with occasional vaulted thrown in (maybe 1 or 2 per month - depending on PvE lengths?)  

Beer40

I don't think there is a true value overall to the vaulted characters. Everyone will value them differently and there will always be people that put value in lesser characters that are favorites and such. 

I would say if there is a such thing as a true value in the vaulted characters, its exactly the same as the non-vaulted ones. You want them all, and you want them at as high a championed level as possible.

Re-works, buffs, nerfs...changes happen all the time and can happen at any time, for any reason. Best to be prepared!

Calnexin

Vaulted 4* are the new 3*.  You only use them when you're forced to (ie, when they're boosted).

That's not a lot different from how the game used to play, anyway.  If you're not fielding two boosted champ 4* you're easy meat.  Especially since most of the latest 4* have a nuke that can wipe a low champ unboosted 4* in one hit.

Sendikelm

This is one side view only - PVP perspective. Playing PVE is the same important. I have 50 4* champed (all but new Sandman and limited Howard) and I'am really happy I can choose the best team for each battle while I have all boosted chars available all time (especially against bosses). Some vaulted chars are valuable even non-boosted (Star-Lord, Quake, Peggy...).

DyingLegend

All I want to do is mix the old and the new for some variety but I can't because of vaulting. Can't earn old ones fast enough to full cover but the new ones I can cover in no time. It annoys me..... 

Nick441234

It annoys me too! I have had to stop drawing LTs because I pretty much have all the latest 12 fully covered now. I'm going to have to hoard now for a few months so a few of them can drop out of packs. I never had this problem prior to vaulting, I could draw when I wanted and would only occasionally get dupes. Opening tokens was a big part of the enjoyment of this game, and thats now been taken away for at least a few months. 

MaskedMan

Warbringa left off one big downside.  It is now nearly impossible to get a high level 4* champ, sure you can champ most everything that comes out, but once gets kicked out of the vault the only way you are getting cards is as a usually as a favorite.  

Which means if you wait a long time and never need favorite to get another character champed or anything like that, you can get one character to a max level in an obscenely long time.  It is almost like that part of the game has been removed.

The worst part is there is no reason for any of this.  The old and new vaults are not mutually exclusive.  At the very least a vault with all 4* characters could be available as a third choice.

What hurts is in the newest spider-man event Mr Fantastic was the easiest way to deal with Dr Octopus and no one can get him anymore.  Brilliant.

n25philly

nick_chicane said:

It annoys me too! I have had to stop drawing LTs because I pretty much have all the latest 12 fully covered now. I'm going to have to hoard now for a few months so a few of them can drop out of packs. I never had this problem prior to vaulting, I could draw when I wanted and would only occasionally get dupes. Opening tokens was a big part of the enjoyment of this game, and thats now been taken away for at least a few months. 

Haven't been able to open an elite, heroic or legendary since vaulting was implemented.  I guess we are supposed to see the number of unusable tokens piling up as fun?  It's beyond annoying but my words would probably just get me banned.

Beer40

n25philly said:

nick_chicane said:

It annoys me too! I have had to stop drawing LTs because I pretty much have all the latest 12 fully covered now. I'm going to have to hoard now for a few months so a few of them can drop out of packs. I never had this problem prior to vaulting, I could draw when I wanted and would only occasionally get dupes. Opening tokens was a big part of the enjoyment of this game, and thats now been taken away for at least a few months. 

Haven't been able to open an elite, heroic or legendary since vaulting was implemented.  I guess we are supposed to see the number of unusable tokens piling up as fun?  It's beyond annoying but my words would probably just get me banned.

Much respect for your resolve to be able to do that. I am curious what your numbers currently are after that much hording.