What exactly are we playing for again?

gillkonam

Not long ago, we used to play for event-specific rares, packs that contained rares often enough, and mega packs that contained rares. Now we play for nothing but stingy packs that rarely pop rares, and currency that doesn't produce much in the end. We have events that are now completely grindy in a way they weren't before. This game feels like work more often then not. It's a business and there are in a business to make money. That means people buying in. The problem I see is that the prizes that make buying the optimum cards to make new decks aren't there. It was always meant to be a comparable trade off, the one feeding the other. D3, seriously, what the heck is going on? Up the prize levels and makes this feel a little less like a part-time job.

Sirchombli

For me, the amount of rares isn't the issue. I pull a lot of them. The problem is that it's always one of the same 20. For a while I felt like I was just pulling from my own pool. I think this makes drop rates seem worse than they are. 

shteev

Not sure, actually. I've got Drake Haven, New Perpectives, and a bunch of cycling cards, so I'm pretty sure I won't need any other cards until Kaladesh rotates out... and, frankly, I can't wait to see JC try and design Ixalan cards which are relevant to Standard.

Volrak

shteev said:

I've got Drake Haven, New Perpectives, and a bunch of cycling cards, so I'm pretty sure I won't need any other cards until Kaladesh rotates out...

Right (not forgetting Cast Out).  Even if I get new AKH rares / mythics, I don't have any expectation of actually playing the vast majority of them.  That's in stark contrast to the beginning of the game, when new cards would regularly open up meaningful and interesting new strategies, or fill significant gaps in an existing ones.

For many players, interest wanes when the challenge is over.

As for Ixalan, it seems that it will go one of two ways:
1. A set full of well-balanced cards that we'll never play, because cycling and Cast Out will still be in standard
2. A selection of even more overpowered cards and mechanics that make cycling and Cast Out redundant, locking the problem in for even longer.

Overpowered cards are terrible for the health of the game, regardless of whether or not the AI has enough of a clue to play them.

bk1234

gillkonam said:

Not long ago, we used to play for event-specific rares, packs that contained rares often enough, and mega packs that contained rares. Now we play for nothing but stingy packs that rarely pop rares, and currency that doesn't produce much in the end. We have events that are now completely grindy in a way they weren't before. This game feels like work more often then not. It's a business and there are in a business to make money. That means people buying in. The problem I see is that the prizes that make buying the optimum cards to make new decks aren't there. It was always meant to be a comparable trade off, the one feeding the other. D3, seriously, what the heck is going on? Up the prize levels and makes this feel a little less like a part-time job.

Well first of all, I don't think it's grindier than ever before. I remember the days when ALL events were 4 hour charges -- people were grinding on the toilet at work just to not miss charges. Now it's just the weekend -- when people have to be with their families and marriages are suffering a bit -- but at least toilet grinding has been minimized. 

I think this game is what you make it. I play story mode every day -- and it's the same thing over and over for 19 months -- but I like to try new, cool things. 

For ToZ this time, I played 70% new decks. My only cycling deck is for 3.1 and 3.3 -- just because a mechanic is useful doesn't mean it's fun. Games should be fun -- break the win or die mentality and start finding ways to have fun with it. My team can attest that since I've done that, my scores are higher than ever. You're not being boxed in, there's a whole world of possibilities in this game. Expand your horizons. 

Or just quit -- if it's not fun, you could always just quit. 

Ohboy

bken1234 said:

gillkonam said:

Not long ago, we used to play for event-specific rares, packs that contained rares often enough, and mega packs that contained rares. Now we play for nothing but stingy packs that rarely pop rares, and currency that doesn't produce much in the end. We have events that are now completely grindy in a way they weren't before. This game feels like work more often then not. It's a business and there are in a business to make money. That means people buying in. The problem I see is that the prizes that make buying the optimum cards to make new decks aren't there. It was always meant to be a comparable trade off, the one feeding the other. D3, seriously, what the heck is going on? Up the prize levels and makes this feel a little less like a part-time job.

Well first of all, I don't think it's grindier than ever before. I remember the days when ALL events were 4 hour charges -- people were grinding on the toilet at work just to not miss charges. Now it's just the weekend -- when people have to be with their families and marriages are suffering a bit -- but at least toilet grinding has been minimized. 

I think this game is what you make it. I play story mode every day -- and it's the same thing over and over for 19 months -- but I like to try new, cool things. 

For ToZ this time, I played 70% new decks. My only cycling deck is for 3.1 and 3.3 -- just because a mechanic is useful doesn't mean it's fun. Games should be fun -- break the win or die mentality and start finding ways to have fun with it. My team can attest that since I've done that, my scores are higher than ever. You're not being boxed in, there's a whole world of possibilities in this game. Expand your horizons. 

Or just quit -- if it's not fun, you could always just quit. 

I actually like the 4h timers too now because I'm having more chances to experiment. I think I dropped 3.3 5 times at least this weekend trying to get non cycle decks to work. When it was just 8h a charge, I couldn't afford to try stuff more than twice before I risk not hitting progression. 

I'm also surprised people don't remember that all events used to be 4h. Or that when it switched over to 8h, some complained that there weren't enough games to play. 

It's only grindy if you're in a coalition trying to play every node to stay in top x. For everyone else 4h charges means they can log in whenever and do a whole chunk during their down time and get on with their weekends. 

andrewvanmarle

bken1234 said:

gillkonam said:

Not long ago, we used to play for event-specific rares, packs that contained rares often enough, and mega packs that contained rares. Now we play for nothing but stingy packs that rarely pop rares, and currency that doesn't produce much in the end. We have events that are now completely grindy in a way they weren't before. This game feels like work more often then not. It's a business and there are in a business to make money. That means people buying in. The problem I see is that the prizes that make buying the optimum cards to make new decks aren't there. It was always meant to be a comparable trade off, the one feeding the other. D3, seriously, what the heck is going on? Up the prize levels and makes this feel a little less like a part-time job.

Well first of all, I don't think it's grindier than ever before. I remember the days when ALL events were 4 hour charges -- people were grinding on the toilet at work just to not miss charges. Now it's just the weekend -- when people have to be with their families and marriages are suffering a bit -- but at least toilet grinding has been minimized. 

I think this game is what you make it. I play story mode every day -- and it's the same thing over and over for 19 months -- but I like to try new, cool things. 

For ToZ this time, I played 70% new decks. My only cycling deck is for 3.1 and 3.3 -- just because a mechanic is useful doesn't mean it's fun. Games should be fun -- break the win or die mentality and start finding ways to have fun with it. My team can attest that since I've done that, my scores are higher than ever. You're not being boxed in, there's a whole world of possibilities in this game. Expand your horizons. 

Or just quit -- if it's not fun, you could always just quit. 

didnt they increase the progression for the weekend event, requiring people to play more?

babar3355

I think this is the core problem.  Cycling is such an amazing skill that it drives competitive players to flock to it with nearly every deck.  If you don't mind losing 5 times on The Gods in ToZ then you can experiment.  But I suspect most people will rush right back to cycling with the presumably upcoming ToS and the much higher individual stakes.

When I can't find a single card in the elite pack which will make my ToZ decks better at all, you know we are in a disconnected game state. Because of engines like New Perspectives and Shefet Monitor, you can basically shrink the size of your deck down to 4-5 cards rather than 10. Now, without even using cycling as your win condition with Drake Haven or Faith of the Devoted, I can throw out half of my deck and just play with a 5 card deck. The consistency this offers makes the decks nearly unbeatable and yet makes the game less fun on a number of fronts.

1. Lots of tedious RSI-cling

2. Less experimentation with cards (Why buy Angel of Sanctions when I can just use Metalwork Colossus and Heart of Kiran in every deck... ie I only need 2 creatures because I now only play with 5 cards.)

Anyway, I see virtually no competitive reason to spend any more resources on cards until AT LEAST KLD rotates out and perhaps not until AKH rotates out.  This is a problem that D3 should very much be concerned with. 

madwren

Ohboy said:

I'm also surprised people don't remember that all events used to be 4h. Or that when it switched over to 8h, some complained that there weren't enough games to play. 

I likewise am surprised that you don't remember that when it switched to 8h, there was more celebration than complaint. The primary reason people complained was "not having stuff to do", which has been alleviated by the constantly ongoing events.

Thuran

Yeah, Ixalan is going to be the least impactful set in the history of the game, unless something in the set helps cycling. Why would you EVER run the GR dinosaur legendary when cycling is just straight up better?! 

Same with hour of devastation, most cards will be worthless if they don't cycle, simply because cycling is so parasitic and so overpowering as to drown out everything else. Also, cast out.

gillkonam

Sirchombli said:

For me, the amount of rares isn't the issue. I pull a lot of them. The problem is that it's always one of the same 20. For a while I felt like I was just pulling from my own pool. I think this makes drop rates seem worse than they are. 

I'm more talking about the lack of rares/mythics to loot in the first place in packs, but I appreciate the input.

bken1234 said:

Well first of all, I don't think it's grindier than ever before. I remember the days when ALL events were 4 hour charges -- people were grinding on the toilet at work just to not miss charges. Now it's just the weekend -- when people have to be with their families and marriages are suffering a bit -- but at least toilet grinding has been minimized. 

I think this game is what you make it. I play story mode every day -- and it's the same thing over and over for 19 months -- but I like to try new, cool things. 

For ToZ this time, I played 70% new decks. My only cycling deck is for 3.1 and 3.3 -- just because a mechanic is useful doesn't mean it's fun. Games should be fun -- break the win or die mentality and start finding ways to have fun with it. My team can attest that since I've done that, my scores are higher than ever. You're not being boxed in, there's a whole world of possibilities in this game. Expand your horizons. 

Or just quit -- if it's not fun, you could always just quit. 

Well I'm not much of a quitter IF there is an opportunity for things to change, and I think there is a chance to change back to a version of a previous model of the game's format. I try not to be too defeatist in the face of such matters.

My issue here is, again, the prize aspect of it. That's the reason we play. Yes there is the modeling of the decks and yes there are matchups, but ultimately a game without significant exciting prizes is not a game that warrants "micropayments". A game that encourages players to innovate, work hard towards goals, and yes get an advantage by supporting the game's business model by purchasing cards is a game that has a strong chance for success in the long term. Let's remember that this is not paper magic or even online Magic in that we have no opportunity to enjoy the fruits of our work outside of the bounds of a specific forum, nor do we have a chance to engage the game with trading as we would in these other two formats. It's very much a walled garden here (a close enough analogy), so if we are asked to run the maze in the garden, I think it behooves the developers to make it feel a bit more special to hit the center of the maze so to speak.

I should note as well that I was not a QB diehard. I can appreciate your enthusiasm for playing story mode and the like. But I would counter that that kind of play style is much more in line with Dotp than it is with this version of the game. Being told to "have fun with it" isn't as fruitful a discussion point, as it suggests that the game is unable to accommodate other playstyles and that it simply conforms to your preference in the game when it can and should do both. 

Yvendros

I've gotta ask, what is this cycling deck?  Of course I never see AI execute one properly, so that's no help.  I've got most of common/uncommon cycling cards.  None of the rares though, I assume that's where it's at?

Ohboy

madwren said:

Ohboy said:

I'm also surprised people don't remember that all events used to be 4h. Or that when it switched over to 8h, some complained that there weren't enough games to play. 

I likewise am surprised that you don't remember that when it switched to 8h, there was more celebration than complaint. The primary reason people complained was "not having stuff to do", which has been alleviated by the constantly ongoing events.

Which if you remember, also got complaints. 

Turns out some people want to play more than others. 

bk1234

Ohboy said:

madwren said:

Ohboy said:

I'm also surprised people don't remember that all events used to be 4h. Or that when it switched over to 8h, some complained that there weren't enough games to play. 

I likewise am surprised that you don't remember that when it switched to 8h, there was more celebration than complaint. The primary reason people complained was "not having stuff to do", which has been alleviated by the constantly ongoing events.

Which if you remember, also got complaints. 

Turns out some people want to play more than others. 

It was about 50/50 as to how it was received. You are both correct. Let's all be friends again. 

Volrak

Yvendros said:

I've gotta ask, what is this cycling deck?  Of course I never see AI execute one properly, so that's no help.  I've got most of common/uncommon cycling cards.  None of the rares though, I assume that's where it's at?

Make nearly all your deck cycling, and run cards like Drake Haven (get +4/+4 on your drakes per cycle) New Perspectives (draw 3 when played, and cycle for free on cards with cycling 3 or less), and Cast Out, which solves all your removal needs (at least in ToZ).

What any of your other cycling cards do when cast normally is almost irrelevant, since you almost always just cycle them: when your board's clear, you're cycling to find Drake Haven and New Perspectives; and when these supports are in play, you're cycling to make drakes and find copies of Cast Out.  You're effectively playing a 3 or 4 card deck, and the same deck will be optimal for around half the nodes in ToZ, so gameplay variety is very low.

The AI never cycles any card, so players are never on the receiving end of how overpowered the mechanic is.

Edit: Some more good info is here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/66015/unpopular-opinion-needs-cycling-a-nerf

madwren

Volrak said:

Yvendros said:

I've gotta ask, what is this cycling deck?  Of course I never see AI execute one properly, so that's no help.  I've got most of common/uncommon cycling cards.  None of the rares though, I assume that's where it's at?

Make nearly all your deck cycling, and run cards like Drake Haven (get +4/+4 on your drakes per cycle) New Perspectives (draw 3 when played, and cycle for free on cards with cycling 3 or less), and Cast Out, which solves all your removal needs (at least in ToZ).

What any of your other cycling cards do when cast normally is almost irrelevant, since you almost always just cycle them: when your board's clear, you're cycling to find Drake Haven and New Perspectives; and when these supports are in play, you're cycling to make drakes and find copies of Cast Out.  You're effectively playing a 3 or 4 card deck, and the same deck will be optimal for around half the nodes in ToZ, so gameplay variety is very low.

The AI never cycles any card, so players are never on the receiving end of how overpowered the mechanic is.

Edit: Some more good info is here: https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/66015/unpopular-opinion-needs-cycling-a-nerf

Just a mention for Faith of the Devoted, which is the centerpiece of the creatureless cycling deck.

Ohboy

Edit :Nvm I misread

DumasAG

Kinda feeling in the same boat lately. What AM I playing for? This game needs new formats ASAP. Gotta be a way to implement draft or something...

Thuran

Draft would be sweet, but hard with a 10 card limit, and 40 cards seem a bit much. Maybe draft 20 and two of each? Might need to figure out a way to avoid everyone using the same walker, or ensuring that your drafted walker just wins. Maybe only allow basic 5?

DumasAG

or have 3 picked at random that you can choose from. Some days you get koth, some days it's a choice between one of the basics

Waschecht

Only Duplicates and no reward cards to go for. There is a promising roadmap, but right now this game is just a dull grind without a rewarding experience. In the next survey I will give it a 3 out of 10. 
Lets see if they manage the turnaround eventually.