Cycling

wereotter

Szamsziel said:

Nah, on green and blue node you can use cycle without supports (kiora). Monitor + rishar allows easily to cast ultimate in few seconds. Also you can use whir of invention to put Drake on board:) 

I'm referencing a white node, so you couldn't use that strategy.

shteev

wereotter said:

Szamsziel said:

Nah, on green and blue node you can use cycle without supports (kiora). Monitor + rishar allows easily to cast ultimate in few seconds. Also you can use whir of invention to put Drake on board:) 

I'm referencing a white node, so you couldn't use that strategy.

I gather there's a Green and White planeswalker.

babar3355

Yeah, new perspectives and drake haven are win conditions and/or make cycling even easier, but are totally unnecessary.  You could us an AotSS deck (Approach of the Second Sun) deck with nothing but common cycle/creature spells and monitor in AJ2 for a win with no supports deck. 

//Removed Profanity -Brigby

wereotter

shteev said:

wereotter said:

Szamsziel said:

Nah, on green and blue node you can use cycle without supports (kiora). Monitor + rishar allows easily to cast ultimate in few seconds. Also you can use whir of invention to put Drake on board:) 

I'm referencing a white node, so you couldn't use that strategy.

I gather there's a Green and White planeswalker.

Ajani can't use Whir of Invention or Drake Haven.

babar3355 said:

Yeah, new perspectives and drake haven are win conditions and/or make cycling even easier, but are totally unnecessary.  You could us an AotSS deck (Approach of the Second Sun) deck with nothing but common cycle/creature spells and monitor in AJ2 for a win with no supports deck. 

I just pulled Approach of the Second Sun, so this might be a deck with playing around with.... 

shteev

wereotter said:

shteev said:

wereotter said:

Szamsziel said:

Nah, on green and blue node you can use cycle without supports (kiora). Monitor + rishar allows easily to cast ultimate in few seconds. Also you can use whir of invention to put Drake on board:) 

I'm referencing a white node, so you couldn't use that strategy.

I gather there's a Green and White planeswalker.

Ajani can't use Whir of Invention or Drake Haven.

Yeah, but he can drop Archive as his one support and go infinite with Shefet Monitor.

Don't make me pull rank on you, I've managed to go this whole conversation so far without mentioning i'm in GoblinPile...

Irgy

Cycling is ridiculously overpowered. There's one reason and one reason only why the forums aren't overwhelmed with complaints, and that's because the AI can't play the decks. It's the same as Ob-Nix, Ob-Nix is not anywhere near as OP as cycling but he is still far too good, but since the AI never saves up for the ultimate no-one complains.

Which I personally think is a poor reflection on the community. Apparently we're not interested in playing a competitive or challenging game at all. We all just want to grind out easy wins against a goldfish, over and over. And the deck is soooo tedious to play as well. I'm sick to death of dragging cards to the exile and then waiting for all the animations to finish over and over and over. But yeah, sure, let's all turn this game into Progress Quest (without the automation) so we can get all those new cards (which we don't even need any more).

Re: objectives, I agree that there's occasionally a node where the objectives conflict with cycling, but as far as that goes it's one of the easiest decks to adapt. You don't generally even want cast anything other than two supports, so most "X or less" objectives are trivial. You can play any blue or black planeswalker, which is enough to cover any colour node. You don't have to lose creatures (drakes against heavy removal could fail there, but there's room to add a haste spell if you're worried about that). You have 3 free slots to put cards for "X or more" objectives and you only even need 2 since you naturally cycle through to them. So yeah, there's a few nodes where cycling is more effort than it's worth, but they're a minority.

Of course it's also not easy to fix cycling because basically every single card involved is at fault. Cycling-1 is far too good just on its own - even without any support, just from a deck thinning perspective. Drakes and [the black uncommon support] are far too good. Archives was fine as a card before but now sends the whole system out of control. The smallest "fix" would be to turn all of the cards that trigger on cycling down to 1, but the effect of that will be that it's still too good, but now it's also four or five times as tedious, not exactly an improvement.

Szamsziel

wereotter said:

shteev said:i 

wereotter said:

Szamsziel said:

Nah, on green and blue node you can use cycle without supports (kiora). Monitor + rishar allows easily to cast ultimate in few seconds. Also you can use whir of invention to put Drake on board:) 

I'm referencing a white node, so you couldn't use that strategy.

I gather there's a Green and White planeswalker.

Ajani can't use Whir of Invention or Drake Haven

Dovin anyone? 

hawkyh1

the problem I find with cycling is it's doesn't use
up your turn so is a no/little risk choice. I'm
thinking something like if cycling costs loyalty
points as well might help. maybe if it costs
1 or 2 (mana and loyalty) per 4/4 drake it could
still be good value but you are forced to take
your turn as soon as you run out of loyalty.
would also add to loyalty gameplay.

HH

tfg76

Here's a suggestion: when you want to cycle something, mark it as such, and when you gain mana, each card will only "cost" whatever the cycling cost is. Then, when resolving the card, it would execute the cycling effect (typically just drawing a card) rather than being played the normal way. That way, you can cycle a bunch of cards at the end of your turn, but not really "go infinite".

shteev

Here's a thing I wrote a while back...

shteev said:

New Perspectives looks an awful lot like Baral v1, doesn't it? It gives 3 mana to a bunch of cards in your hand and then gives 3 mana to any you draw, as well.

Except, it's a support, so it's harder to shoot. And it draws 3 cards when it comes into play. And it costs 3 less mana.

It feels nice that cycling only costs 1 at the moment, so you can throw away your situational colored Demolish variant when you don't need it, but the costs of the cards are going to have to be increased a lot. Most cycling cards in paper MTG cost 2 or more mana, which is a significant amount of the mana available to a player in a turn. I'd say we need to be looking at 3 mana as a bare minimum. There's a reason why you don't see cycling 0 in paper MTG much, and when it does show up it usually gets banned in tournament formats at some point.

Cards which have effects when they cycle need to be costed like normal cards. a 2/2 zombie which draws a card when it comes into play would not cost 2 mana; it'd cost at least 6, wouldn't it? I mean Shambling Ghoul costs 6 and you don't even get your card back. Renewed Faith should be costed more like Healing Hands. Shefet Monitor should be costed more like Rishkar's Exp... er, no, wait a second, like Animist's Awa.... sod it, I don't know, it's not my job to balance these stupid mana gain cards. Sort it out.

Engines which trigger on cycling are all just going to have to go. We love Engines, don't we? Er, no, not really. I have an idea about them, actually, which I'll put in another thread when I get around to it. But honestly, you can't have Drake Haven, you can't have Curator of Mysteries, and you can't have Faith of the Devoted. And you DEFINITELY can't have New Perspectives. They can't cost as little as they do, and frankly they can't have effects like that either. Redesign them from the ground up.

Lastly; there are other engines in the game which trigger off draws which are problematic with cycling... Alhammaret's Archive and Sphinx's Tutelage are the only two I can think of off the top of my head. I'd suggest making cycling fetch the top card of your deck rather than draw it specifically to break the synergy with these cards.

Yeah, I know, I'm a big spoilsport, aren't I?

Oh, I never did get around to explaining what my idea was for engine cards was, did I? It was this: Overcost them to hell. Overcost them to the point where they are unplayable. But then... throw in a few more Supercharged events than we get currently (2 a year, is it?). The doubling of mana will allow them to be playable in those events, without wrecking Standard, or, hopefully, even Legacy.

Oh, and when I say overcost them? I mean overcost them. Doubling the cost of Drake Haven and New Perspectives will not make them unplayable. Hell, QUADRUPLING the costs of Drake Haven and New Perspectives probably won't make them unplayable either. I know people who are playing Monuments because they don't have New Perspectives, and they manage to go infinite just fine.

tfg76 said:

Here's a suggestion: when you want to cycle something, mark it as such, and when you gain mana, each card will only "cost" whatever the cycling cost is. Then, when resolving the card, it would execute the cycling effect (typically just drawing a card) rather than being played the normal way. That way, you can cycle a bunch of cards at the end of your turn, but not really "go infinite".

That sounds like a decent idea. Would that require the cycling mana to be in each card itself? Your maths might be a bit tricky if cards are taking mana from other cards during the casting phase.

shteev

Irgy said:

Cycling is ridiculously overpowered. There's one reason and one reason only why the forums aren't overwhelmed with complaints, and that's because the AI can't play the decks. It's the same as Ob-Nix, Ob-Nix is not anywhere near as OP as cycling but he is still far too good, but since the AI never saves up for the ultimate no-one complains.

Which I personally think is a poor reflection on the community. Apparently we're not interested in playing a competitive or challenging game at all.

You're not wrong. Ever since day 1, there's always been a large contingent of players who swear that there's nothing wrong with the original version of Kiora, or that Baral isn't overpowered, it's just that it's a bit boring when the AI uses it.

Usually I put it down to the fact that the player base for this game is an odd cross section of dedicated and experienced paper MTG players, mobile pay to win monkeys, and all the spaces in between.

Baral decks are foiled by Kambal, Authority of the consulate, minds dilation,(of course disable and kill) captured by the consulate, managorger hydra, noosegraf mob, scab clan berserker.

Of course they are. Kambal, Authority of the Consulate. How did I not see that.

Irgy

I just want to say, everything I said about cycling was without even being aware of the existence of New Perspectives. So, well, let's just say fixing that one card won't solve everything...

tfg76

@shteev As to my idea: Think of it as cycling cards, when selected somehow, being replaced by "1: Draw a card" (or whatever the cycling cost and effect would be). So they wouldn't "drain" from other cards at all, just have their own reduced cost and modified effect. I think it would still be fairly broken at this point, but would be slower since you couldn't go infinite. 

andrewvanmarle

What about this:

instead of trying to nerf  the whole cycling mechanic, add cards to the set that act as a natural enemy.
supports and creatures that do variants of the following: when opponent cycles a card--- disable the first non disabled creature---gain 3 life----do 2 damage----drain 2 mana---gain 2 mana---opponent discards a random card---etc

spread cards like that out over the 5 colours and suddenly cycling becomes a risky proposition. Much more fun than just dumbing down/killing/nerfing the mechanic

Thésée

andrewvanmarle said:

What about this:

instead of trying to nerf  the whole cycling mechanic, add cards to the set that act as a natural enemy.
supports and creatures that do variants of the following: when opponent cycles a card--- disable the first non disabled creature---gain 3 life----do 2 damage----drain 2 mana---gain 2 mana---opponent discards a random card---etc

spread cards like that out over the 5 colours and suddenly cycling becomes a risky proposition. Much more fun than just dumbing down/killing/nerfing the mechanic

Except that... nobody would play those :-). Why would you put in your deck a support that says "whenever your opponent cycles a card, you gain 35 life" since the AI doesn't cycle? You could troll other players but you would weaken your own deck. 
I love cycling, being able to cycle Forsake the Worldly when you draw 4 copies in a row is cool. Maybe those card should cost more to cast or to cycle, I don't know. But the main problem is not cycling, it's cards like New Perspectives 

Corn_Noodles

I think cards (supports or creatures) that increase cycling costs for the opponent might be an avenue to explore.

wereotter

andrewvanmarle said:

What about this:

instead of trying to nerf  the whole cycling mechanic, add cards to the set that act as a natural enemy.
supports and creatures that do variants of the following: when opponent cycles a card--- disable the first non disabled creature---gain 3 life----do 2 damage----drain 2 mana---gain 2 mana---opponent discards a random card---etc

spread cards like that out over the 5 colours and suddenly cycling becomes a risky proposition. Much more fun than just dumbing down/killing/nerfing the mechanic

Ob Nixilis is the natural enemy of cycling.... if the AI ever saved up for his ultimate.

Irgy

Counter-cycling cards would be a great idea in a two player game. But it makes no sense in this one. Even if they somehow made it worthwhile playing the cards and the cards somehow mattered, getting narrowly countered by a deck that was chosen at random is not a satisfying game experience for anyone.

It reminds me, the AI played that worm card that says my flyers can't attack (which, by the way, is a ridiculous card whose only saving grace is being overshadowed by cycling), and I thought "oh, finally they got me, my drake deck is going to lose". Then I actually read some of the cards I cycle, paid 4 mana and blew it up.

Turns out cycling-1 cards, as well as being totally overpowered just for being cycling-1 cards, have text on them with some sort of alternative cost and effect as well. Amazing.

PersonMan

I think the simplest solution is for effects of any Cycled card (including the draw) to take effect at the end of your turn, and make New Perspectives a spell that gives you cards and mana once on casting.  So Cycling would still be good, but you couldn't ramp as quickly.  Sorta like how they nerfed Baral.  

Thuran

My suggested solutions, off the top of my head:

1) make an objective "cycle 5 or less cards"

This allows you to keep situational cycling cards, such as dissenters deliverance.

2) make an objective "summon 5 or less creature tokens"

Should not bother embalm too much, but stops the drake and zombie cycling decks, allowing cycle to sort your hand, but not win the game.

3) make decks 40 cards

Dangerous, but makes milling a thing and does not affect most decks, this stops combocycling dead. However it requires players to be able to see the graveyard and number of cards remaining in your deck, as well as encourage value and more thoughtful play, due to limited resources.

4) make all cycling cost minimum 2 mana.
 
Kinda clunky, doesn't stop new perspectives, and you can't increase costs too much without killing the mechanic altogether.



Side note: Drake haven is NOT the problem! If your cycling cards don't earn additional mana, the card seems relatively fair, but powerful. It is new perspectives that enables you to go infinite, so if you just want to change a single card, the key is to hit new perslectives. Maybe make the card more similar to the paper version?

"New perspectives. 5 mana.
Draw 3 cards. As long as your hand is full, cycling costs are reduced by (2)." 

Felt a bit much to reduce costs to 0 across the board.

This might seem like a small change, but has two big advantages:

1) it means that more powerful cycle cards will still drain your mana without giving any mana back. Right now you are GAINING mana when cycling, this change would let you cycle, but not build up mana.

2) eventually you will draw noncycling cards, right now that means you just exile those extra cards and keep going, but with this change you lose the ability to cycle if you do so, meaning there is a higher risk of bottlenecking. Yes you might be able to keep going a while, but I think it is fine for cycling decks to exist, they just need to be less consistent, especially in non dedicated decks.