Cycling

shteev
shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
in MtGPQ General Discussion


Have we stopped talking about how broken cycling is? Are we all OK with it now? Isn't it a bit, yknow, boring?
«13

Comments

  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    If its boring, build another deck. 

    The ai doesnt know how to use it so its not like you have to play this to compete. 

    Nuff said
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'll thank you to take your personal vendetta against OP elsewhere.
  • DumasAG
    DumasAG Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    Think cycling is actively bad for the game BECAUSE the AI can't utilize it. When I'm matched against a cycle deck, it's basically an auto win for me. If cycling becomes prominent, it's basically just going to be a game where everyone goldfishes their favorite deck.

    They need to do a lot to the AI, but having a way for you to choose priorities for the AI for each deck would be good. Like, "always cycle"
  • gruntface
    gruntface Posts: 161 Tile Toppler
    DumasAG said:
    Think cycling is actively bad for the game BECAUSE the AI can't utilize it. When I'm matched against a cycle deck, it's basically an auto win for me. If cycling becomes prominent, it's basically just going to be a game where everyone goldfishes their favorite deck.

    They need to do a lot to the AI, but having a way for you to choose priorities for the AI for each deck would be good. Like, "always cycle"

    Totally agree. Going up against a cycling deck usually means a simple win with all objectives as the cycling cards aren't generally strong in their own right. Any mechanism that requires even a simple decision is weak in the hands of the AI and the more we see functions like cycle, the worse it gets.

    I also agree with shteev that it is a boring deck to play. I have some of the core cycle cards (Drake for instance) but find it pretty tedious to play so I don't play a cycle deck (so I guess I also agree with andrew).

    Hmmm, I guess taking a weekend off from playing all the events has made me overly agreeable.  
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    shteev said:
    I'll thank you to take your personal vendetta against OP elsewhere.
    Actually not a personal vendetta, though you may have one?

    Im just stating a simple fact.... 
  • hawkyh1
    hawkyh1 Posts: 780 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2017
    I'm finding more and more battles where I keep
    on getting the same few cards over and over in
    up to 5 copies by turn 3. card draw and cycling
    is becoming more important to include in my
    decks. I only cycle when I need to, to get a
    variety of cards that's not simply awful.

    HH
  • gruntface
    gruntface Posts: 161 Tile Toppler
    On the plus side the Tour de France starts in fewer than 3 weeks!
  • Monkeynutts
    Monkeynutts Posts: 566 Critical Contributor
    Until the AI taught how to cycle, replace weaker creatures and discard etc this will be the norm. I dont think itll ever be fixed.

    Personally i hate caacading more than the broken mechanics. 
  • majincob
    majincob Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    andrewvanmarle said:
    shteev said: 
    I'll thank you to take your personal vendetta against OP elsewhere.
    Actually not a personal vendetta, though you may have one?

    Im just stating a simple fact.... 
    I thought he was talking to himself tbh.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just to be clear, I'm using 'broken' in the way that it's most often used by MTG players. So I'm not saying that cycling doesn't work, in any respect; I'm saying that it's ludicrously overpowered, and it's far too facile a way to win your games, and therefore top the leaderboards and win the best prizes.
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    shteev said:
    Just to be clear, I'm using 'broken' in the way that it's most often used by MTG players. So I'm not saying that cycling doesn't work, in any respect; I'm saying that it's ludicrously overpowered, and it's far too facile a way to win your games, and therefore top the leaderboards and win the best prizes.


    Sure, you can build a cycle-dependent deck that wins your matches, but then you yourself are such an easy opponent that anyone playing your deck gets a full perfect score auto-win.

    I'm nowhere near that competitive level, ie. I don't try to build a deck to make other players lose, but it seems like the best players in the event will be able to build decks that both win with perfect scores and also create a challenge for their opposition.  Try doing that with cycling (hint: you can't).

    On the other hand, now that there is no more tie-breaking, I guess it's Ok for there to be a 50-way tie for top score.

  • morgue427
    morgue427 Posts: 783 Critical Contributor
    ai can win at times not cycling with a well constructed cycling deck with support destruction health gain, creature  control. with a few no cycling they still kick butt with those crazy ai cascades. it is still usually a win but not always
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    Steeme said:
    shteev said:
    Just to be clear, I'm using 'broken' in the way that it's most often used by MTG players. So I'm not saying that cycling doesn't work, in any respect; I'm saying that it's ludicrously overpowered, and it's far too facile a way to win your games, and therefore top the leaderboards and win the best prizes.


    Sure, you can build a cycle-dependent deck that wins your matches, but then you yourself are such an easy opponent that anyone playing your deck gets a full perfect score auto-win.

    I'm nowhere near that competitive level, ie. I don't try to build a deck to make other players lose, but it seems like the best players in the event will be able to build decks that both win with perfect scores and also create a challenge for their opposition.

    Well, I am at that competititive level, and I'm afraid you are mistaken. There are players who are avoiding using cycling because it's boring, or because they're affected by RSI, but they're putting themselves at a competitive disadvantage by doing so.
  • tfg76
    tfg76 Posts: 258 Mover and Shaker
    E.g. the best "Zombie deck" in standard (the one I played to a perfect record in Trial of Strength) is probably Dovin Baan cycling with 2 cheap zombies in it. Deck is so good that you can throw in some chaff and still win by a comfortable margin.

    I agree with the previous statement that the main problem here is that the deck is so easy to build and so bad in the hands of the AI that the entire event becomes stupid.


  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    tfg76 said:
    E.g. the best "Zombie deck" in standard (the one I played to a perfect record in Trial of Strength) is probably Dovin Baan cycling with 2 cheap zombies in it. Deck is so good that you can throw in some chaff and still win by a comfortable margin.

    I agree with the previous statement that the main problem here is that the deck is so easy to build and so bad in the hands of the AI that the entire event becomes stupid.
    The deck I'm using for Green **** right now features a single werewolf; It's Kessig Prowler, but that doesn't matter, it's simply the cheapest werewolf I own. I usually cast somewhere between 5 and 7 of them by the end of the game. My opponent, meanwhile, locked down under a Sphinx's Tutelage, often doesn't get to play a single card.

    It features no masterpieces, no mythics, and three rares: DWave, New Perspectives, and Shefet Monitor. The other 5 cards are cheap **** cycling cards; I couldn't care less what they do.
  • Urzashead
    Urzashead Posts: 64 Match Maker
    Just got drake haven and anointed procession.  Built the deck and it's no problem ending the game with a 50+ drake on the board.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    shteev said:
    Just to be clear, I'm using 'broken' in the way that it's most often used by MTG players. So I'm not saying that cycling doesn't work, in any respect; I'm saying that it's ludicrously overpowered, and it's far too facile a way to win your games, and therefore top the leaderboards and win the best prizes.
    Except it's not.  Not arguing its power, it's definitely ridiculously powerful, but I tried it out for one early event where I just placed a Drake Haven, New Perspective deck onto every node. I won every match, but because the decks didn't always allow for the completion of secondary objectives (I think the white node had the requirement to cast no supports) it was impossible to get a perfect score, and I did not finish top of the leader board.

    So.... I guess if they keep with the "cast 1 or no supports" as an objective, it will reduce cycling's ability to get to the top of the leader boards.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    wereotter said:
    shteev said:
    Just to be clear, I'm using 'broken' in the way that it's most often used by MTG players. So I'm not saying that cycling doesn't work, in any respect; I'm saying that it's ludicrously overpowered, and it's far too facile a way to win your games, and therefore top the leaderboards and win the best prizes.
    Except it's not.  Not arguing its power, it's definitely ridiculously powerful, but I tried it out for one early event where I just placed a Drake Haven, New Perspective deck onto every node. I won every match, but because the decks didn't always allow for the completion of secondary objectives (I think the white node had the requirement to cast no supports) it was impossible to get a perfect score, and I did not finish top of the leader board.

    So.... I guess if they keep with the "cast 1 or no supports" as an objective, it will reduce cycling's ability to get to the top of the leader boards.
    Well, I'd question whether you were using the right builds. I haven't played MTGPQ in 2 weeks, reinstalled this weekend to see what things were like, and I had a go at ****. It was a Legacy event, I could have played Kiora Combo with Rishkar's Expertise, I could have played oldschool Creatureless Ob or T2 with BTB, but I played 3 cycling decks and got a perfect score.

    I would have played ToS but I reinstalled a day too late and missed the start. So, I leapt in at the last moment and managed to get 34th place by playing just 11 games and not even bothering to buy G3. You know, in the same way that people did for Rishkar's Expertise when that event ran. You'd think they'd have closed that loophole.

    The fact that you can design objectives to reign in some of the worst excesses of Cycling a tiny little bit doesn't mean it isn't broken, any more than the fact that the AI can't play it for toffee doesn't.
  • wereotter
    wereotter Posts: 2,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    shteev said:
    wereotter said:
    shteev said:
    Just to be clear, I'm using 'broken' in the way that it's most often used by MTG players. So I'm not saying that cycling doesn't work, in any respect; I'm saying that it's ludicrously overpowered, and it's far too facile a way to win your games, and therefore top the leaderboards and win the best prizes.
    Except it's not.  Not arguing its power, it's definitely ridiculously powerful, but I tried it out for one early event where I just placed a Drake Haven, New Perspective deck onto every node. I won every match, but because the decks didn't always allow for the completion of secondary objectives (I think the white node had the requirement to cast no supports) it was impossible to get a perfect score, and I did not finish top of the leader board.

    So.... I guess if they keep with the "cast 1 or no supports" as an objective, it will reduce cycling's ability to get to the top of the leader boards.
    Well, I'd question whether you were using the right builds. I haven't played MTGPQ in 2 weeks, reinstalled this weekend to see what things were like, and I had a go at tinykitty. It was a Legacy event, I could have played Kiora Combo with Rishkar's Expertise, I could have played oldschool Creatureless Ob or T2 with BTB, but I played 3 cycling decks and got a perfect score.

    I would have played ToS but I reinstalled a day too late and missed the start. So, I leapt in at the last moment and managed to get 34th place by playing just 11 games and not even bothering to buy G3. You know, in the same way that people did for Rishkar's Expertise when that event ran. You'd think they'd have closed that loophole.

    The fact that you can design objectives to reign in some of the worst excesses of Cycling a tiny little bit doesn't mean it isn't broken, any more than the fact that the AI can't play it for toffee doesn't.
    No. You literally couldn't get a perfect score with a cycling deck since one node had a "Cast zero supports" objective, and cycling generally needs you to cast at least two. 

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