Anyone Else Joining the Nerf Thanos Movement?

Vhailorx

Jaedenkaal said:

Vhailorx said:

The problem is not thanos, just like the problem wasn't OML.  The problem is availability.  It's incredibly hard to build a single 5*, most players will never even get 1 to 450.  

Playing the same teams over and over just reminds everyone that 50+ match3 game matches a day is boring.  So of course it sucks being stuck using your best 2 characters all the time.  That is true in the 3* tier and the 5* tier.  But 5* acquisition is totally different from any other tier.  The game is designed so that getting the first few 3*s or 4*s makes it way easier to get more.  But 5* is all rng, and a 4* roster can get just as much cp as a 5* roster.

Ok, so if you had all the 5*s at 550... who would you use?

Well, sometimes i would use thanos (say for grinding trivial nodes or hopping in pvp) because he is very fast against opponents below his level.  But he actually isnt always the best option against overleveled opponents.

If you had a full 3* roster, would you use thanos for all of your hard pve nodes?  Or would you use strange + if + cyclops for some?   

A 550 thanos court death does about 30k.  That's great.  But the opppnents you fight with 550 scaling/mmr will often have 90k or more health.  Court death certainly isn't bad.  But BB will do almost 10k a turn at 550, and strange will do about the same for each power use.  Against some opponents that will end up being more damage in less time than thanos.  

Thanos is not at all bad.  And all other things being equal, he will see a lot of use (just like any other top-of-the-meta) character.  That does not mean that he is too strong or needs to be nerfed.  

Characters only need need to he nerfed when it becomes impossible to compete without that character.  The most obvious example in mpq's history was original sentry.   Any character that means guaranteed victory in 30 seconds or less againat any possible opposing team is broken.  (Infini-rags or perma-stun spidey, or original 1" storm were also bad, but slower winfite teams dont break pvp; just pve, so they are less of a problem).  I just don't see any evidence that thanos is near that level of dominance.  Correct me if i am wrong 5* vets. . .

Tony_Foot

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

DyingLegend

Tony Foot said:

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

if you were versing Quake would she stop/reduce it?

evade420

DyingLegend said:

Tony Foot said:

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

if you were versing Quake would she stop/reduce it?

quake gets stunned before the damage is dealt by court death, so no.

as a 5/4* player it takes way longer than 30 min to do all 4 clears at the current scaling level, facing level 435+ dark avengers with over 70k health is not fun at all

Starfury

evade420 said:

DyingLegend said:

Tony Foot said:

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

if you were versing Quake would she stop/reduce it?

quake gets stunned before the damage is dealt by court death, so no.

as a 5/4* player it takes way longer than 30 min to do all 4 clears at the current scaling level, facing level 435+ dark avengers with over 70k health is not fun at all

30 minutes clear times is what happened in the first test of SCL based scaling. Because 5* Thanos crushed anything that test threw at 5* rosters.

Bowgentle

Starfury said:

evade420 said:

DyingLegend said:

Tony Foot said:

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

if you were versing Quake would she stop/reduce it?

quake gets stunned before the damage is dealt by court death, so no.

as a 5/4* player it takes way longer than 30 min to do all 4 clears at the current scaling level, facing level 435+ dark avengers with over 70k health is not fun at all

30 minutes clear times is what happened in the first test of SCL based scaling. Because 5* Thanos crushed anything that test threw at 5* rosters.

Thanos was more like 20-25 minutes in CL8, I did about 30 with Bolt/Strange.

Thing is, ANY 5 will keep your clear times at about 30 minutes with fixed levels, which is _a good thing_.
I shouldn't have end grind times of 1 hour and 10 minutes just because I level my characters.

CL 7 was under 20 minutes for Thanos, I've heard.

 

Starfury

Bowgentle said:

Starfury said:

evade420 said:

DyingLegend said:

Tony Foot said:

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

if you were versing Quake would she stop/reduce it?

quake gets stunned before the damage is dealt by court death, so no.

as a 5/4* player it takes way longer than 30 min to do all 4 clears at the current scaling level, facing level 435+ dark avengers with over 70k health is not fun at all

30 minutes clear times is what happened in the first test of SCL based scaling. Because 5* Thanos crushed anything that test threw at 5* rosters.

Thanos was more like 20-25 minutes in CL8, I did about 30 with Bolt/Strange.

Thing is, ANY 5 will keep your clear times at about 30 minutes with fixed levels, which is _a good thing_.
I shouldn't have end grind times of 1 hour and 10 minutes just because I level my characters.

CL 7 was under 20 minutes for Thanos, I've heard.

 

Thing is, that shouldn't only apply to 5* rosters.

If a 4* roster wants similar clear times, he'll have to drop to levels where he won't get any meaningful rewards anymore. Either everyone gets freed of the daily grind or noone does.

GrumpySmurf1002

Bowgentle said:

CL 7 was under 20 minutes for Thanos, I've heard. 

Mine were like 22-25-18, IIRC, at least for the first 4 clears.  Lots of goons helps immensely.  

Thick as Thieves won't be quite that fast, but still way better than the hour or so it takes me now.

byc

OJSP said:

Tony Foot said:

I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

I think that 30 minutes only happened during the last test. The PvE scaling for 5* players is bad. Try fighting lvl 440+ Dark Avengers with a total health of 150k+. 

With the current system, the quicker 5* players need about 40-45 minutes to clear and 45-55 minutes to grind on average. I think on some easier subs, 35-40 minutes might be possible. But, they need a good combination of boosted4*s and 5*s to do so.
True 4* players can clear in 35-40 minutes and grind in 40-45. Someone with Thanos as their only high level 5* can play even faster.

For the current 4*-5* transitioning players, having OML, Phoenix and Silver Surfer as their first 3 championed 5*s will just slow down their game immensely now. I know that from personal experience. I know I'm not particularly fast and I still have gaps in my roster, but I have won a few events myself, so I think I know what is required to be fast.

I have 6 5* champions now (SS, OML, Phoenix, Thanos, Strange and Goblin), but I was at my fastest when I had no 5* championed with OML at lvl 390 (I should've kept him at 375, but at that time players were unsure about scaling and matchmaking). When I had SS championed, OML was already lvl 390-405, I started losing to 4* players occasionally because they can generally use AoE characters all the time whereas I could only do well when my AoE characters were boosted. When I had OML and SS championed, my clear and grind time increased massively and I would have trouble grinding any node with 2 Muscles: most of the time leaving that node only at 5/6 rewards before running out of time. When I had OML SS and Phoenix, I stopped playing for t10. The time investment was not worth the reward.

Only when I got Thanos, I was able to play faster and get t10 again if I want to, but the time requirement was still about 2 hours for optimal play.

Then I got Strange and now I need about 1 hour and 40 minutes for optimal play, with occasionally needing to buy health packs.

Those who have Black Bolt and Black Panther or high level 4*s to pair with Thanos can play faster, but still not as fast as 4* players due to their easier opponents.

Considering I only recently championed my last fully covered 4*s, leaving Gamora and Groot left to do, perhaps I should have stayed as a 4* player longer, but that would mean wasting 20 champion levels for the 5*s on top of the 11 duplicates I got in this last 7 months or so. I think that would be the wrong decision to make.

If they are going to nerf Thanos, they need to provide other alternatives to beat these highly scaled opponents in Story Mode that allows the 5* players to be able to compete against the 4* players in terms of speed. Those fortunate enough to have Black Bolt already might be okay, but I think they are still slower than the 4* players. 

Info like this makes me really angry that people are punished for playing the game and progressing.

The 5* rostered that messes up scaling is one of the most annoying things in any game.

I am lucky that my natural instinct is to hoard and not power up anything until I know what I am doing or find out information on how the game actually works.

mohio

OJSP said:

Tony Foot said:

I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

I think that 30 minutes only happened during the last test. The PvE scaling for 5* players is bad. Try fighting lvl 440+ Dark Avengers with a total health of 150k+. 

With the current system, the quicker 5* players need about 40-45 minutes to clear and 45-55 minutes to grind on average. I think on some easier subs, 35-40 minutes might be possible. But, they need a good combination of boosted4*s and 5*s to do so.
True 4* players can clear in 35-40 minutes and grind in 40-45. Someone with Thanos as their only high level 5* can play even faster.

For the current 4*-5* transitioning players, having OML, Phoenix and Silver Surfer as their first 3 championed 5*s will just slow down their game immensely now. I know that from personal experience. I know I'm not particularly fast and I still have gaps in my roster, but I have won a few events myself, so I think I know what is required to be fast.

I have 6 5* champions now (SS, OML, Phoenix, Thanos, Strange and Goblin), but I was at my fastest when I had no 5* championed with OML at lvl 390 (I should've kept him at 375, but at that time players were unsure about scaling and matchmaking). When I had SS championed, OML was already lvl 390-405, I started losing to 4* players occasionally because they can generally use AoE characters all the time whereas I could only do well when my AoE characters were boosted. When I had OML and SS championed, my clear and grind time increased massively and I would have trouble grinding any node with 2 Muscles: most of the time leaving that node only at 5/6 rewards before running out of time. When I had OML SS and Phoenix, I stopped playing for t10. The time investment was not worth the reward.

Only when I got Thanos, I was able to play faster and get t10 again if I want to, but the time requirement was still about 2 hours for optimal play.

Then I got Strange and now I need about 1 hour and 40 minutes for optimal play, with occasionally needing to buy health packs.

Those who have Black Bolt and Black Panther or high level 4*s to pair with Thanos can play faster, but still not as fast as 4* players due to their easier opponents.

Considering I only recently championed my last fully covered 4*s, leaving Gamora and Groot left to do, perhaps I should have stayed as a 4* player longer, but that would mean wasting 20 champion levels for the 5*s on top of the 11 duplicates I got in this last 7 months or so. I think that would be the wrong decision to make.

If they are going to nerf Thanos, they need to provide other alternatives to beat these highly scaled opponents in Story Mode that allows the 5* players to be able to compete against the 4* players in terms of speed. Those fortunate enough to have Black Bolt already might be okay, but I think they are still slower than the 4* players. 

Sorry for quoting this again, but up until the Thanos, Strange, Goblin part, it's exactly my experience. I've contended for quite a few PvE top 10s in my time but after championing OML, PHX, and SS it's happened all of once. Must have been a really good set of 4s that I just happen to have highly championed or just a really lucky bracket. My clearing times are well over what I hear from all my friends who have newer 5* champed. There's no way I can grind to 1 in under an hour, it might take me about that long just to get the 2 extra clears for green checks some nights. So why even try anymore? I can't be as fast as all the other teams out there, so I really shouldn't waste my time. It's kind of a depressing state in the game right now. It's not like there's even a viable way to get my Thanos covered from 8 covers, or my BB from his lowly 2 or 3. But that's just about the only thing that would help me be competitive against all the teams that do have him. Now, to be clear, this is not the fault of that character. Thanos is absolutely "too good" at what he does and tilts competition heavily in the favor of people who have him over those that don't. That doesn't mean he deserves to be nerfed. However, something really should be done so that he's not as necessary for top competition. I would argue for changing many of the other things brought up in this thread rather than nerf Thanos, but I completely understand where the sentiment comes from. 

Even PvP has similar issues. There are so many more 5* teams now that people have had the time to save up hoards of CP/LT and opened them for Thanos/BP/etc. Not that that itself is a problem, but it seems no matter when you choose to climb there are always some with slightly bigger guys that started a little after you and decide to feast on your weak OML/PHX team. As people have mentioned before, Thanos isn't very good on defense, but judging by how much I get hit in PvP instead of the guys I'm seeing with BP/Thanos and more points than me, he's still a better deterrent than OML/PHX are. So even in PvP I am seeing that Thanos is becoming a "must have" as far as all the teams I find in top 5s have him championed and use him over their other options. Isn't it telling that most people are using their BP/Thanos team at around 453 as opposed to some of their other 5s they have 10-15 levels higher?

Spoit

That's another good point. Just because you're in the 5* arena, with multiple champs, doesn't mean that you were actually able to get a usable thanos in the small window where he was actually available. And we all know how impossible it is to complete a character once they're in classics.

spectator

Don't nerf, release counters. Doc ock would have been a good counter against bp/thanos team if only his tentacle was spammable and black worked a bit more like strange 

madsalad

5* Thanos is working as intended and the devs will not nerf him any time soon. He wreaks enough havok on the home team that you are required to dump health packs to keep pace.  Health packs require in game resources to purchase more of, or $$$ to purchase more in-game resources.  Thanos is a money sink, why would they stop that?

alaeth

The nerfs of 5* MUST STOP.

The whole point of 5* land is to have the BEST characters in the game.  Those of use 1000+ days played have worked damn hard for these rewards... it is our DUE to feel like the thousands of hours (and in many cases... dollars) invested in this game are WORTH it.

Nerfing another 5* and I'm done.  Logan hurt, but another 5* nerf sends a very clear message - nothing is safe, nothing is sacred, and the money & time invested can be eliminated based on a single post.

Stax the Foyer

sh81 said:

By the same token it removes any non 5*player from competition and rewards.

Ive no issue with the SCL scaling in theory, but the test the other week proved one thing conclusively for me - levels 9 and 10 need to be open and the rewards need to reflect the stage you are at at each level.

SCL scaling without a revision of levels and rewards would kill the game for 90% of its players.

It might kill it for 1-2%, and that's only if the progression rewards aren't considered relevant.  

Whatever bracket you're in, only 1% of the players get top 10 placement.  Everyone else gets some 3*s or some 2*s.  

Anyone placing PvE T10 with regularity is an extreme outlier compared to the playerbase as a whole, regardless of their roster.  It seems like most of the 90% plays a little bit, when they want to, and often times forgets/ignores an ongoing PvE event.

GurlBYE

Tony Foot said:

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

This times 50 billion.

I don't want the nerf, but I do mind the hypocrisy. 

They always compare themselves to 4 star players with all 4's rosters who have boosts available I guess because without boosted I'm really curious as to what they think 4 star scaling is like.

Stax the Foyer

GurlBYE said:

Tony Foot said:

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

This times 50 billion.

I don't want the nerf, but I do mind the hypocrisy. 

They always compare themselves to 4 star players with all 4's rosters who have boosts available I guess because without boosted I'm really curious as to what they think 4 star scaling is like.

5* players know what 4* scaling looks like.  It wasn't that long ago that Heroics without 5*s available were a regular feature.  There's a reason that you saw so many comments from 5* players about missing those.

Vhailorx

Yeah, 5* players are not entirely locked out of competition in pve, but they hardly dominate the way they do in pvp.  

Some healthy skepticism of 5* players complaining about their scaling is fine: a conpsiracy theory about how they grind everything in 25 minutes but complain because they are babies is just paranoid.

acescracked

GurlBYE said:

Tony Foot said:

Just make a character that stops court death and a goon that does the same for pve. I always hear 5* players moan about their pve scaling, right before they tell me they do 4 clears in 30 minutes.

This times 50 billion.

I don't want the nerf, but I do mind the hypocrisy. 

They always compare themselves to 4 star players with all 4's rosters who have boosts available I guess because without boosted I'm really curious as to what they think 4 star scaling is like.

You do understand that basically 90% of the current 5* players playing pve did go through a 4* pve scaling phase.

Bishop

Wumpushunter said:

#never nerfs

why not ask for buffs to bring other characters up to thanos level?

Because for them at this stage it's easier to nerf. There are to many characters to bring up to "his" level. Personally I don't care he doesn't really bother me yet.