making a decision on dealing with wasted covers

Beer40

I have finally noticed the lack of ISO people talk about as you transition into a 4* player. I don't have enough ISO to champ both RiRi and Cage before I lose covers for them. Neither is a character I'm particularly interested in, but that's how the covers have fallen...I've got a 13 cover IW that I'd rather champion than either, but I won't be pulling covers for her anytime soon, so she can wait. And I'm tired of pulling dupes for the only Mordo power I have 5+ covers in...when I really don't want to use Mordo anyway. 

I need ISO, but I don't value it more than CP. So yea, I'll be hoarding. It is what it is.

crackninja

What it comes down to is I was just getting ready to start championg my 4*'s when vaulting hit.  I knew it would take a year or more to get the iso to champion anyone that I had covered, doing this gradually over the course of that year,  as characters hit 13 covers.
When vaulting hit, as intended, I started getting a ton of covers for a select few characters, and those characters are hitting 13 covers quite rapidly and so I now must stop opening LT's while my iso catches up, or waste the pulls a high percentage of the time.  At the end of my year long journey I actually think I'm going to be better off because the iso cost and number of champs will be the same, but I'll have thousands of cp's that I will then be able to use all at once for entrance into 5* land.
That's pretty clearly hoarding because the alternative is a massive waste.

Huntah86

Initially vaulting encourages hoarding but only until you get caught up with the latest and once you do (or almost do) then the VAST majority of your pulls won't go to waste since most if not all will be champ levels.  When vaulting first started I was 3 covers or less away from fully covering Wasp, Bl4de and SW and only had maybe 5 different 4* already champed (only Peggy was part of the initial latest that I already had champed). Now after a few months of vaulting, I'm down to only needing to champ Riri and Hobofist (both already fully covered) and getting covers for my C&D (1/1/3 currently). I'm champing Elektra today (had a 14th cover from my 3* farm) and then I'll champ Thoress (just got a 14th cover from resupply) and follow that up with a Riri then Hobofist champing.  Until all that happens I plan to hoard and then open everything until C&D is fully covered and champ them.  After that I just have to keep up with the latest releases which shouldn't be hard and if I do then there will never be another wasted cover unless I pull a BH in a cover I can't use.  I will most likely be getting plenty of champ levels for covers I'm not overly interested in but they won't be wasted.  I was definitely wasting more covers before vaulting (granted I know that was due to bad luck) but as long as you wait until you have all your latest 12 that are fully covered champed before pulling more tokens or spending CP then you'll have no problems. It's just getting over the initial growing pains that might take a bit.

MissChinch

Huntah86 said:

Initially vaulting encourages hoarding but only until you get caught up with the latest and once you do (or almost do) then the VAST majority of your pulls won't go to waste since most if not all will be champ levels.  When vaulting first started I was 3 covers or less away from fully covering Wasp, Bl4de and SW and only had maybe 5 different 4* already champed (only Peggy was part of the initial latest that I already had champed). Now after a few months of vaulting, I'm down to only needing to champ Riri and Hobofist (both already fully covered) and getting covers for my C&D (1/1/3 currently). I'm champing Elektra today (had a 14th cover from my 3* farm) and then I'll champ Thoress (just got a 14th cover from resupply) and follow that up with a Riri then Hobofist champing.  Until all that happens I plan to hoard and then open everything until C&D is fully covered and champ them.  After that I just have to keep up with the latest releases which shouldn't be hard and if I do then there will never be another wasted cover unless I pull a BH in a cover I can't use.  I will most likely be getting plenty of champ levels for covers I'm not overly interested in but they won't be wasted.  I was definitely wasting more covers before vaulting (granted I know that was due to bad luck) but as long as you wait until you have all your latest 12 that are fully covered champed before pulling more tokens or spending CP then you'll have no problems. It's just getting over the initial growing pains that might take a bit.

You can absolutely (and reasonably in terms of resources) get to a point where you will not have to hoard out of a necessity due to potentially wasting 4* covers you cant champ in time.

The problem is that same resource you're using to focus on 4*s (CP) is the same resource you need to break into the 5* tier, and the most efficient way to break into the 5* tier is NOT to pull as you get the token/CP or use it on classics.  Its to hoard so you can focus your pulls on well covering a few 5*s instead of gradually spreading it around the whole tier.

You can absolutely choose to mortgage your 5* development in order to accommodate the vaulting mechanic so you stay current with new 4*s, but you cant do both like you could before vaulting (unless you're getting a LOT of CP/LTs and keeping up with championing all your 5*s, in which case vaulting vs no-vaulting is a moot point for you anyway). 

Fightmastermpq

Spidurman27 said:

Anywhere from 40-60k per day (full PVE, 900 PVP).  
And I do have covers for multiple on the vine that I'm scrambling for while rebuilding the farm (etc etc)

You make enough to champ a 4* every week.  You could pull until you have the 14th covers for TWO characters on the vine before you were even at risk of getting a 3rd that you would have to eventually waste.  I mean, I guess if you want to divert some ISO to catching up on farms it might slow you down, but in general you should be able to get by really without ever "hoarding" for more than a week at a time.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think withholding opening tokens for a week at a time is the type of hoarding that we are talking about in the OP.

crackninja

This may be a question for a different thread, but is a low champ level for a character that will soon enough be vaulted really worth all that much? Sure,  the cover isn't "wasted", but you can always get 1000 iso for it so it's never completely worthless.  When there was an opportunity to get the better reward levels it was an brainer, but I don't see how I'll ever get a 4* over level 300 under this system. 

MissChinch

crackninja said:

This may be a question for a different thread, but is a low champ level for a character that will soon enough be vaulted really worth all that much? Sure,  the cover isn't "wasted", but you can always get 1000 iso for it so it's never completely worthless.  When there was an opportunity to get the better reward levels it was an brainer, but I don't see how I'll ever get a 4* over level 300 under this system. 

If you believe they will actually follow through and make retired 4*s easier to obtain vs effectively killing the champion system, then I'd say its a good future investment.

Fightmastermpq

crackninja said:

This may be a question for a different thread, but is a low champ level for a character that will soon enough be vaulted really worth all that much? Sure,  the cover isn't "wasted", but you can always get 1000 iso for it so it's never completely worthless.  When there was an opportunity to get the better reward levels it was an brainer, but I don't see how I'll ever get a 4* over level 300 under this system. 

IMO no, given the choice you should almost always opt to champ a newer character over one that is vaulted or soon to be vaulted.  You will earn FAR more champ levels over the 36 weeks or so that a new character is available in tokens to make it worth it.

Also, you will definitely get characters past 300.  Maybe not at your current state, but as you progress you will be more competitive and start earning more rewards and the covers will flow.  I've got Coulson at 300 already and he has only been around for a couple seasons right?

Huntah86

MissChinch said:

Huntah86 said:

Initially vaulting encourages hoarding but only until you get caught up with the latest and once you do (or almost do) then the VAST majority of your pulls won't go to waste since most if not all will be champ levels.  When vaulting first started I was 3 covers or less away from fully covering Wasp, Bl4de and SW and only had maybe 5 different 4* already champed (only Peggy was part of the initial latest that I already had champed). Now after a few months of vaulting, I'm down to only needing to champ Riri and Hobofist (both already fully covered) and getting covers for my C&D (1/1/3 currently). I'm champing Elektra today (had a 14th cover from my 3* farm) and then I'll champ Thoress (just got a 14th cover from resupply) and follow that up with a Riri then Hobofist champing.  Until all that happens I plan to hoard and then open everything until C&D is fully covered and champ them.  After that I just have to keep up with the latest releases which shouldn't be hard and if I do then there will never be another wasted cover unless I pull a BH in a cover I can't use.  I will most likely be getting plenty of champ levels for covers I'm not overly interested in but they won't be wasted.  I was definitely wasting more covers before vaulting (granted I know that was due to bad luck) but as long as you wait until you have all your latest 12 that are fully covered champed before pulling more tokens or spending CP then you'll have no problems. It's just getting over the initial growing pains that might take a bit.

You can absolutely (and reasonably in terms of resources) get to a point where you will not have to hoard out of a necessity due to potentially wasting 4* covers you cant champ in time.

The problem is that same resource you're using to focus on 4*s (CP) is the same resource you need to break into the 5* tier, and the most efficient way to break into the 5* tier is NOT to pull as you get the token/CP or use it on classics.  Its to hoard so you can focus your pulls on well covering a few 5*s instead of gradually spreading it around the whole tier.

You can absolutely choose to mortgage your 5* development in order to accommodate the vaulting mechanic so you stay current with new 4*s, but you cant do both like you could before vaulting (unless you're getting a LOT of CP/LTs and keeping up with championing all your 5*s, in which case vaulting vs no-vaulting is a moot point for you anyway). 

I think this is where it gets to personal preference.  I personally have no interest in moving into 5* land, I really enjoy having the flexibility of picking and choosing between all my 4*'s and even some 3* but know that if I started champing 5* then my options will be limited. You're absolutely right though that if you move into 5* land hoarding is by far the best option.

Eichen

Isn't the easiest solution the wrong color cover to eliminate the expiration on covers?  

Then when you pull that 6th Mrodo pink (or 9th) it could just sit in your inventory until you do finally get the right color combo to champ him.

Jaedenkaal

Easiest until your phone runs out of memory storing all the information it needs to store about the 6000 covers you have banked.

Straycat

Eichen said:

Isn't the easiest solution the wrong color cover to eliminate the expiration on covers?  

Then when you pull that 6th Mrodo pink (or 9th) it could just sit in your inventory until you do finally get the right color combo to champ him.

I dunno, I would probably be pretty mad if I looked at my queue and saw the "claim your rewards" banner show 38 wasted covers that never disappeared.

But sure, there wouldn't really be a reason to hoard if there was no expiration. The 2 week deadline is probably a big factor in resource spending, so the devs wouldn't get rid of it.

I think they should let us use a roster slot to store dupe covers, then let us apply those after they get champed. Or at least really increase the sell price. Or one of the many ideas that people have suggested in other threads

As for the devs answer, what is he talking about, more opportunities to use iso? He just saying you have more covers? That answer sounds like someone complaining that all their 4*s are level maxed at like 3 covers, and can't spend iso anywhere. I skimmed over it before, but yeah thats a non answer to a question about hoarding.

jredd

i'm not suggesting they go back to the way it was. but what i would like is some choices. i'm not a fan of the way they up and said 'this is the way it is. for everyone'. like one size fits all. give us a measure of self determination in improving our rosters. right now, all we have is who you want to put iso into. that's it. everything else is random. 

buying individual 4 and 5* covers with cp is not a long term solution for anyone but the blubberiest of whales.

smkspy

Eichen said:

Isn't the easiest solution the wrong color cover to eliminate the expiration on covers?  

Then when you pull that 6th Mrodo pink (or 9th) it could just sit in your inventory until you do finally get the right color combo to champ him.

Or at least increase the time expiration limit for 4 and 5 stars. 4 weeks seems a bit more reasonable given how much faster we're covering these characters now. 

Pants1000

I never hoarded before, but I started recently because I have 5 of the latest 12 max covered without ISO to champ them.

It's temporary though.  I'm guessing I'll get them all champed in 6-8 weeks, except for Spiderwoman who I plan to leave unchamped.  Then I'll be back to pulling everything right away, now with zero wasted covers, unless I have bad luck with the color spread on new ones.

Crowl

Fightmastermpq said:

crackninja said:

This may be a question for a different thread, but is a low champ level for a character that will soon enough be vaulted really worth all that much? Sure,  the cover isn't "wasted", but you can always get 1000 iso for it so it's never completely worthless.  When there was an opportunity to get the better reward levels it was an brainer, but I don't see how I'll ever get a 4* over level 300 under this system. 

IMO no, given the choice you should almost always opt to champ a newer character over one that is vaulted or soon to be vaulted.  You will earn FAR more champ levels over the 36 weeks or so that a new character is available in tokens to make it worth it.

Also, you will definitely get characters past 300.  Maybe not at your current state, but as you progress you will be more competitive and start earning more rewards and the covers will flow.  I've got Coulson at 300 already and he has only been around for a couple seasons right?

Assuming roughly equal characters this advice is fair, but if the one due to leave soon is noticeably better then the newer one they should still get the iso and champed, particularly so if it is one with mechanics that allows them to be useful even without being boosted.

Unless you have already left the 4* tier and in that case you would tend to cover them far sooner than you would need to make such a decision anyway, the main purpose of collecting 4*s is to expand your playing options and not simply being about how many champion rewards you can get from them.

NewMcG

Crowl said:

Fightmastermpq said:

crackninja said:

This may be a question for a different thread, but is a low champ level for a character that will soon enough be vaulted really worth all that much? Sure,  the cover isn't "wasted", but you can always get 1000 iso for it so it's never completely worthless.  When there was an opportunity to get the better reward levels it was an brainer, but I don't see how I'll ever get a 4* over level 300 under this system. 

IMO no, given the choice you should almost always opt to champ a newer character over one that is vaulted or soon to be vaulted.  You will earn FAR more champ levels over the 36 weeks or so that a new character is available in tokens to make it worth it.

Also, you will definitely get characters past 300.  Maybe not at your current state, but as you progress you will be more competitive and start earning more rewards and the covers will flow.  I've got Coulson at 300 already and he has only been around for a couple seasons right?

Assuming roughly equal characters this advice is fair, but if the one due to leave soon is noticeably better then the newer one they should still get the iso and champed, particularly so if it is one with mechanics that allows them to be useful even without being boosted.

Unless you have already left the 4* tier and in that case you would tend to cover them far sooner than you would need to make such a decision anyway, the main purpose of collecting 4*s is to expand your playing options and not simply being about how many champion rewards you can get from them.

This is true, but that good character can be maxed whenever once they're at 13 covers. If it's a powerhouse about to leave (Peggy recently) then sure, but in terms of your general rewards it's definitely preferable to prioritize latest, even if they aren't the greatest.

I'm a week away from finishing Mordo, and he's certainly not anywhere near great, but he'll be guaranteed rewards on an extra 7% of my LT pulls for almost another 6 months. Spiderwoman is sitting in my roster with 13 covers at level 100 or so, and is a better character but just isn't quite as vital, since she's getting the boot in a few weeks. At this point, she does not gets levelled before she rotates out. Should IF or C&D get fully covered, they'll get priority, otherwise Agent Venom is still a viable token pull for 3 months, so he's the next one to get some iso love. There's now a definitive way to maximize efficiency and minimize waste on LT pulls. Outside of a few top tier characters, getting the current 12 champed maximizes your return on your LT pulls, which make for better rewards, (CP and LT for more 4* covers, and some decent sized chunks of iso) which can be put to the benefit of your entire roster.

Dragon_Nexus

I made a thread a few weeks ago pointing out that vaulting has only made the ISO shortage more noticable and worse.

Before vaulting I'd probably take about a year to get 13 covers for a 4*, and then only when I got a 14th would I actually champ them (unless they were really good like Jean or Peggy or Thor or what have you).

Now though, I ended up championing Medusa super quickly. Likewise Carol Danvers. Quickly in terms of getting covers, anyway. Getting the ISO still takes an age.

So now when I have a 4* I'm working on, all legendary token opening ceases completely until they're champed. I don't want to be working on Spider Woman, which I am, only to then get a 14th cover for Agent Venom. I don't think I can manage 500k ISO in a fortnight.

So I absolutely do not open more tokens now. I open fewer. I could never resist opening legendaries before, but I've since learned to hold back. I've got 400CP saved up, too.

broll

Hoarding pre-vaulting happened because people were afraid of duplicate covers and bad RNG.
Hoarding post-vaulting happens because people are afraid of duplicate covers and bad RNG.

The reason many are saying they hoard more now is:
1.  Vaulting makes it much easier to get a color set to 5 and increase your risk of duplicates.
2.  Vaulting makes it easier to get 4*s to 13 usable, but the ISO doesn't flow in fast enough to keep up that with unless you at least occasionally stop to let ISO build up.

If the want to keep vaulting (please god no!) and don't want people to hoard, they need to dramatically ramp up the ISO rewards, by a factor of 2 or 3 at least.

Ughlah

So, all of you guys have the problem that you pull dupes and have to hoard a little to pull in 2-3 month to have a much better rate of non-dupes. I wish I had your problem.

It is way way worse for those who just started. Remember, those who should benefit from this change. I cannot champ any 4*. I easily could, as I have 5 of the current 4* covered. It is just suicide to do so before champing a really decent amount of 2* and 3*, probably better to champ them all. PVP will pit you with other player who have champed 4* after the initial 3 fights. Good luck competing with a full champed 4* roster. PVE scaling will make it impossible to get past fight 2-3.

I've started hoarding and I can decide whether I open some tokens in a couple of month and probably won't because the chances of pulling way more than 13 covers from one character while pulling way less from those I like are pretty high, and therefor a lot of waste will be trashed. I will have to hoard till I have the 2* and 3* finished. In the meantime I'm blocked from the behemoth daily very often, I have difficulties with missing 4* characters in PVE.

Without PVP there is no way i'm making 40-60k ISO per day, more like 20-25k, which means it'll take even longer to build up the 2* and 3*. And since i'm now hoarding heroic tokens as well the cover progression in 2* and 3* land is slowed even more.

Now, that is a real problem.