*** Sam Wilson (Falcon) *** (Updated)

Phaserhawk

mischiefmaker wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Redwing
5/5/3=destroy everything, CD timer of 3 (means every 5 of your turns it recasts if not destroyed sooner)
5/4/4=destroy everything, CD timer of 4 (means every 6 of your turns it recasts if not destroyed sooner)
5/3/5=cannot destroy CD, CD timer of 4 (means every 6 of your turns it recasts if not destroyed sooner)

I had forgotten that while the CD timer may say 3, it doesn't count down untilt he begin of your turn, thus lvl 5 blue is not as good as I once thought. every 3 vs. every 4 is a 33% increase in casting, but every 5 vs 6 is only 20% increase in casting, but there are going to be situations where having that come back one turn earlier will be imperitive.

Wait what?

Turn 1: Redwing activates, removing a tile, placing a 3 turn CD. Opponent moves, gets the benefit of his second special tile.
Turn 2: CD decreases to 2. Opponent gets benefit of his tile.
Turn 3: CD decreases to 1. Opponent gets benefit of his tile.
Turn 4: CD decreases to 0, goes away. Opponent gets benefit of his tile.
Turn 5: Redwing activates, removing a tile, placing a 3 turn CD. Opponent does not have a tile on his turn.
Turns 6-8: repeat 2-4 above.
Turn 9: Redwing activates.

Looks to me like it's every 4 turns v. every 5 turns. What am I missing?

Yeah, do we count the first one? I see what you are saying and I think we are saying the same thing differently.

Phaserhawk

Phantron wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

so you would run 5/5/3?

Yes. Pretty much every game I run with Falcon involves trying to upgrade strike tiles as often as you can, and even if you have 4 digit match 3 damage most of that is concentrated on a few strike tiles, so it's best to keep your options open rather than clogging up the board with protect tiles. I can see running a Bird Strike if you started with a lot of purple early without having any AP to generate strike tiles, but that's assuming you run without Daken which frankly makes no sense.

I guess it's about making your Falcon offensive or deffensive. I agree then, on offense a 5/5/3 would be much stronger as you aren't trying to cast purple, only as the necessary. And yeah, I would much rather have the extra dmg going on my strike tiles or attack tiles then my protect tiles. Or you could always go 5/3/5 or 5/4/4 and do the actually scary Spider-Man/Falcon combo. I got stuck in a Pvp with this. Thank goodness the 3rd guy was Human Torch during the Army of One tourney. If not for Punisher I would never have killed him, thank goodnes Retribution can get around shields. The game went Spiderman early blue cascade, a couple of purple matches and I now I'm not able to do match dmg. Yellows are getting matched all of a sudden Birdstrike. I had thankfully gotten enough yellow the turn before for a Thunderstrike which got Human Torch under 40% that Pun finished him off. Next turn spidey cast heal, Falcon and Spidey were already max health so it didn't matter. So I see the benefits of a defensive Falcon, and in terms of AI play, it's pretty easy for the AI to get what it needs as mass casting of shields is hard for the AI to mess up

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

so you would run 5/5/3?

Yes. Pretty much every game I run with Falcon involves trying to upgrade strike tiles as often as you can, and even if you have 4 digit match 3 damage most of that is concentrated on a few strike tiles, so it's best to keep your options open rather than clogging up the board with protect tiles. I can see running a Bird Strike if you started with a lot of purple early without having any AP to generate strike tiles, but that's assuming you run without Daken which frankly makes no sense.

I dunno, I tend to pick up a reasonably amount of purple normally, when there's not a green or yellow match, so that laken can tank

gambl0r312

FYI people, since the Top Gun tourney is a thing for the closing days of Season 3:

Falcon's Passive Redwing will NOT erase either the Invisibility Tile or the Force Bubbles placed by an (Enemy) IW.

The behaviour with respect to the (Untouchable/Locked) Force Bubbles is similar to how using C.Mags' Mag Field to overwrite tiles will not Overwrite a Force Bubble itself, but the tile underneath it instead leading to a locked Protect Blue tile underneath the bubble (and no protection for you).

Had to spam out Falcon's Purple so that the lone IW left alive wouldn't kill my chars with Force Bubbles while I tried get around her untargetable, unmatchable, unreachable Invis Tile. Finally got (the computer) to make a 4-in-a-row match to blow the Invis Tile, allowing me to finally use Thunder Strike, Chemical Rxn, etc. etc.


Not a bug, just a warning....

Nonce Equitaur 2

In Falcon vs Falcon, a ridiculous thing happens with Redwing.

Allies have 4 tiles.
Enemy Redwing activates, replacing Ally tile with Enemy Redwing tile.
Ally Redwing activates, replacing Enemy Redwing tile with Ally Redwing tile.
Enemy Redwing activates, replacing Ally tile with Enemy Redwing tile.

When an Ally Redwing tile is on the board, it's a "bad" thing. It's best to get rid of it as fast as possible. In lieu of that, it would be better if the enemy "owned" the Redwing tile.

"Remove this tile to have Redwing return early"
"Protect this tile to keep opponent Redwing away"

Unknown

I don't really see the value of anything over 3 in Bird Stike, and 3 only has value in that it lets you get to max level. The protection you get at even 1 cover is probably enough to stop most match damage, and the increase you get from each yellow match is more than twice the base value of the protect tiles in the first place. Does it matter if you have 500 vs 800 in protect tiles if after the first yellow match it goes up to 800 vs 1100? And every additional yellow match makes the starting value of the tiles less and less important.

More tiles just means you're likely to lose a couple almost instantly. There's only so many places you put 14 tiles or even 11. It's the ones that survive and get buffed that are really going to matter. Maybe if you got your spam out right in front of a CtS or something you might get some additional value from the extra protection at 4 or 5 covers, but after that it probably doesn't amount to much realistically.

Meanwhile 4 in blue lets you nuke countdown tiles, very useful in PvE and against certain other meddlesome characters (as if mHawkeye didn't have it bad enough). 5 in blue is marginal, granted, but so is 3 extra protect tiles for going to 4 purple. So meh. I'll take my chances with 5/5/3.

mischiefmaker

I'm considering respec'ing mine from 5/5/3 to 5/3/5, actually. I figure, when am I going to play Falcon? I can only think of three scenarios:

1. Early stages of a PvP -- Daken/Falcon is very fast and so good for climbing.
2. Heroic PvE.
3. Top Gun.

For #1, all I care about is yellow -- the game is going to be over too fast to ever cast Bird Strike or for Redwing to matter much.

For #2, Redwing is likely better since there won't be many options to deal with goons, but:
- Redwing can't keep up with multiple goons, so you need to be doing damage quickly to take them out before they overwhelm you; Falcon doesn't help with that.
- Optimizing a build because he might be in a future heroic PvE seems like an awfully narrow niche.
- I didn't consider PvE in general because in an unrestricted PvE there are plenty of better ways to deal with goons than Redwing, including just killing them before they kill you.

For #3, I strongly prefer NOT being able to take out countdown tiles because I'm always going to want to play Falcon with strike tile generators, which means enemy Falcons will likely Redwing a strike tile. Having my Falcon Redwing his CD and then having his Redwing take out a second strike tile is a disaster that I can prevent by not letting my Redwing take out his.

Also, having Redwing not work on CDs makes Falcon a pretty good defense against a World Rupture-Sacrifice combo, since Redwing will eat the strike tile and ignore the countdowns.

All that being said, I'm not going too hard after that respec, just in case I start running into a whole bunch of Nick Furys (Furies?) trying to Escape Plan all the time.

Phaserhawk

mischiefmaker wrote:

I'm considering respec'ing mine from 5/5/3 to 5/3/5, actually. I figure, when am I going to play Falcon? I can only think of three scenarios:

1. Early stages of a PvP -- Daken/Falcon is very fast and so good for climbing.
2. Heroic PvE.
3. Top Gun.

For #1, all I care about is yellow -- the game is going to be over too fast to ever cast Bird Strike or for Redwing to matter much.

For #2, Redwing is likely better since there won't be many options to deal with goons, but:
- Redwing can't keep up with multiple goons, so you need to be doing damage quickly to take them out before they overwhelm you; Falcon doesn't help with that.
- Optimizing a build because he might be in a future heroic PvE seems like an awfully narrow niche.
- I didn't consider PvE in general because in an unrestricted PvE there are plenty of better ways to deal with goons than Redwing, including just killing them before they kill you.

For #3, I strongly prefer NOT being able to take out countdown tiles because I'm always going to want to play Falcon with strike tile generators, which means enemy Falcons will likely Redwing a strike tile. Having my Falcon Redwing his CD and then having his Redwing take out a second strike tile is a disaster that I can prevent by not letting my Redwing take out his.

Also, having Redwing not work on CDs makes Falcon a pretty good defense against a World Rupture-Sacrifice combo, since Redwing will eat the strike tile and ignore the countdowns.

All that being said, I'm not going too hard after that respec, just in case I start running into a whole bunch of Nick Furys (Furies?) trying to Escape Plan all the time.

You know after hearing your thoughts, I strongly agree with a lot of your points. The Falcon vs. Falcon is a minor situation, but it does make sense for 5/3/5 in a mirror match. Your Sentry arguement however was something I never considered. Even if you destroy 1 Daken strike tile, you save your self anywhere from 68-1088 dmg depending on how many CD tiles are out. So here's a list of guys of want you want targeted 2 and 3 *'s

CD Tiles
============
Ares
Captain America (both)
Human Torch
Iron Man 40
Fury
M.Magneto
Hawkeye

I would list Hulk but I don't think it's possible to destroy his with Redwing unless you add counters to them. The other 2 guys that have multiple things are Punisher and maybe Black Panther. Everyone else you want there strike tiles or protect tiles destroyed. Fury you could argue both since if you miss his CD tile you'd want his attack tile destroyed, but yeah everyone else you don't care about the CD tile or the CD tile is so high anyway like X-Force Wolvie, you can opt to worry about other things instead.

You play Falcon for his yellow, we all know this, although Phantron made a good point too, you don't want purple either since it clogs up the board and dilutes the chances of you buffing your attack or strike tiles over protect tiles.

I see really good arguements for 5/3/5, 5/4/4, and 5/5/3. I guess thats good, since there is no "only way" to build him. I do agree in the Falcon vs Falcon, a 5/3/5 build is probably the better way to go as you won't keep blowin up his to lose somethign of yours. There is a way to counter your issue though. If you run Falcon with Daken you can always cast Chemical Reaction to drop your blue AP low enough not to trigger Redwing if it's too much of an issue.

over_clocked

Meh, I don't think taking 5-3-5 Falcon against defending Sentry is any better. Sentry would usually be paired with Daken which means lots of additional strike tiles for Redwing to take care of, not just the Sacrifice one.

Phaserhawk

locked wrote:

Meh, I don't think taking 5-3-5 Falcon against defending Sentry is any better. Sentry would usually be paired with Daken which means lots of additional strike tiles for Redwing to take care of, not just the Sacrifice one.

Right, but here's the kicker. If Sentry casts World Rupture and say by the time it's ready to go off, 11 are left. If Redwing even destroyed 1 Daken Tile that saves you a lot of dmg. Lets say we have 11 CD tiles and 6 Strike tiles.

5/3/5 will destroy Srike Tile you would still take (5*68) + 173 Rupture Tile x 11 tiles = 5643 dmg, yeah your still all dead
if a CD tile is destroyed it's (6*68) + 173 x 10 = 5810 dmg. So you'd save 167 dmg
5/4/4 or 5/5/3 has a 11/17 chance of destroying a CD tile, over a strike tile

While this example isn't a lot, if it's a bigger tile it can save you more

over_clocked

Uh, I'd rather defend against World Rupture itself (board shake-up, AP steal, delay, anything). Shaving off some hundreds off 5k damage to team does not sound good in any book imo.

scottee

I'll stick with 5/5/3.

Not taking out countdown tiles is helpful in the Sentry situation. But there's a ton of other Hero countdown abilities that I'd want to be able to take out without worrying about them. And the difference between purple 3 and 5 is a couple hundred extra when hit by an ability, as both completely negate match damage.

mischiefmaker

Phaserhawk wrote:

If you run Falcon with Daken you can always cast Chemical Reaction to drop your blue AP low enough not to trigger Redwing if it's too much of an issue.

I thought of this, but when I tried running it in both Top Gun and Simulator, it really didn't work that well -- a Falcon/Daken team is going to want to go hard after green and yellow, with blue as a distant third option (well, maybe you'll take it early if you haven't gotten any tiles on the board, but in general it will be third or even fourth depending on who else is on your team). So by the time you have enough to CR, you're likely looking at something like 4 tiles, buffed at least once, so something like 500-800 in strike tiles, depending on your Falcon level and how many times you've hit yellow.

Giving up that much damage in strike tiles to do around 3k damage isn't generally going to be a good trade. I mean, it's better than losing two strike tiles to enemy Redwing, but in the same way that getting slapped in the face is better than getting kicked in the junk.

locked wrote:

Meh, I don't think taking 5-3-5 Falcon against defending Sentry is any better. Sentry would usually be paired with Daken which means lots of additional strike tiles for Redwing to take care of, not just the Sacrifice one.

Fair point. I've yet to see anyone running Sentry without Daken. In that case it's pretty much a tossup -- taking a strike tile off the board means saving something like 700 damage (68 * 10-11 CD tiles), while saving a CD tile saves something like 400 (160 from the tile, maybe 5-6 Daken tiles on board), the difference of which is basically irrelevant since WR is going to do 5k or so.

Although, since Sentry is a Dark Avenger, maybe we'll see more Sentry in PvE nodes? There's one in Simulator right now...

scottee wrote:

Not taking out countdown tiles is helpful in the Sentry situation. But there's a ton of other Hero countdown abilities that I'd want to be able to take out without worrying about them. And the difference between purple 3 and 5 is a couple hundred extra when hit by an ability, as both completely negate match damage.

Are there? Phaserhawk pretty much listed them all in his post. I don't see a single hero on that list whose CD ability scares me:

Ares, MMN, Punisher, Black Panther - health too low and/or CD effect pretty marginal
Cap - power too expensive; I think I've been hit by a second SSA maybe twice ever
IM40 - too slow, and if he's one of the rare L1 or L2 Recharges, taking one off the board doesn't help a whole lot
Human Torch - AI will cast Flame Jet with 6 green, which I don't care about defending. Maybe useful on defense against Torch? But who really plays Torch on offense, and without Daken?
Hawkeye - maybe if he gets buffed? Right now he's pretty rare to see and I don't think I've ever been hit by one of his CDs

Fury is about the only one I think is worth defending, as I mentioned, but it's a pretty expensive power, and now that I think about it some more, even if the CD does resolve, a 5/3/5 Falcon eats the strike tile the next turn anyway.

I guess you could also argue that optimizing for the mirror match is a pretty small niche when they've just run Top Gun (in Season 2 they ran Starfall, Fresh Cut and Cage Match twice, but since Season 3 started they haven't repeated one yet, including ones from Season 2), since nobody really plays Falcon, but man, more than 3 blue in the mirror match is just awful.

Unknown

My takeaway from this conversation, and a lot of people have made good points for one side or another, is that as long as you have 5 yellow it doesn't really matter what else you do. I've experienced the Redwingpocalypse in Top Gun. It's annoying. But other than his featured event which runs every--what? Two months, maybe?--when is this ever an issue? Maybe you get a little more value here and there from countdown nuking. Maybe not. Maybe you get a little extra protection from more birds a'striking, maybe not. Bottom line is he's there for tile buffing. Everything else is highly situational.

over_clocked

I still fail to see any use for a 5/3/5 Falcon. Mirror matches? No one should run Falcon without special tile users, which means that there will be plenty of tiles for Redwings to eat besides each other.

Phaserhawk

locked wrote:

I still fail to see any use for a 5/3/5 Falcon. Mirror matches? No one should run Falcon without special tile users, which means that there will be plenty of tiles for Redwings to eat besides each other.

also a good point.

Unknown

While there are a few edge cases where not being able to remove CD tile is good, in general being able to remove CD tiles is a really good idea, especially in PvE. The only compelling reason to have a high level of Bird Strike is for PvE. A level 395 enemy does 600 damage match 3s, which can kill The Hood in 7 match 3s and even less for OBW. This means even if the other side never had any AP at all, you still can't fight defensively with a character like The Hood because you'll just die on their match 3s, so it's important to get enough protect tiles out to make this damage surviveable for your low HP specialist. For a while it was looking like level 300+ enemies are going to be quite common and a lot of my games involve around having Captain America try to get a Peacemaker early enough so that OBW/The Hood can actually survive the match 3s, but due to recent scaling changes this is no longer relevent. The only scenario I can think of where you're taking comparable match 3 damage that'd require Bird Strike is against Daken, but I don't see how you can possibly outrace Daken with a 12 AP move.

Note that having Redwing on level 5 makes it almost impossible to lose to a goon fight where they only have expensive major attacks like Flamethrower or Rocket.

scottee

But even against 395's, if you have a level 3 Bird Strike, you instantly add a couple hundred to the protection with the next yellow match. Yellow matches affect your amount of protection more than the initial protection. And some of the protect tiles will get killed anyway. So it really comes down to how much you buff them vs how much the enemy destroys them.

Dayv

The downside of this is that it then becomes subject to the wrong countdown manipulation abilities. OBW blue and Hood black, for example.

Dayv

Another way to handle this might be to create a separate class of tile called a cooldown tile. They could then decide which abilities affect them and which do not. I'm not sure the potential player confusion is worth it for what is currently only used by a single ability, though.