Coalition rewards are in!

Ohboy

Sarahschmara wrote:

I guess what I don't understand is why they took this backwards approach?

Part of the fun for me, personally, is the coalition game. Figuring out the way to consistently score the best possible prizes for my teammates and coordinating schedules of so many great people from all over the world.

We do a good job most of the time and we're a pretty happy bunch across all levels of play. We love seeing our new players succeed! We're all about lifting each other up and this change seems to hold people down instead.

If Ohboy is correct and the current situation is unfair (and I don't necessarily agree with that) then the only way to restore balance is to give the low end more chances at success. They didnt take my mythics from me, they made it harder than ever for others to catch up.

OK right now there are complaints on 3 fronts, and I find everyone gets mixed up. Someone complains about one thing, and someone else jumps in thinking he's complaining about the same thing. As far as I can tell, there are three major sources :

1) Crystal supply drop + Crystal buying power drop

2) new daily event costs $ and isn't worth it

3) coalition rewards no longer contains mythic(individual reward scheme pending)

They're all linked of course, but there's nothing less productive than two people discussing different things, so let's separate them...

You're of course mainly talking about (3). Of course they've taken a mythic from you. That's literally the most obvious thing they did. They took away a guaranteed mythic from you and gave you about 7.5% of the resources required to get a guaranteed mythic. My coalition generally ends up somewhere in top 50s, so I, get about 2.5% of a mythic. Compare this to your 100% before and my 0% and you can see that at least on this front, I have closed the gap significantly.

You're probably also mixing in a little of (1) of course, because it's true that we now get less crystals and crystals buy less now. It lets look at latest event's progression. We're getting 35 crystals down from 95 before. In return, we gain 30 jewels. So we've lost 10% of the value of a big box(which has 58% mythic proc rate from Octal's data) and gained 7.5% chance of a guaranteed mythic.

Which means the rewards structure is more level now. You've lost value in mythic payouts, but those outside top 10 have gained quite a bit of ground. Sounds like this fits in with your mission statement of helping new players climb up. Can I count you in as a supporter?

Sarahschmara

Apologies. It's tough to format on a phone.

Ohboy: I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here and that's probably my fault for being imprecise with my language. Let me try again.

They took away everyone's potential future mythics. They did not take away the mythics I already have.

Since I have a fair amount of mythics already, the mythic cards I do pull out of packs are usually not new to me and don't increase my collection (other than as added runes). Where as a player with a smaller collection of mythics is more likely to receive a new to them card. Make sense?

They took away the free mythics for top ten coalitions... well, I guess that's one way to solve the "dupe" problem, huh?

And as an aside, my personal coalition usually places anywhere top 25 to top 500 depending on how much time I have to play. Although I'm the head of Human Resources for our collection of teams, including a top ten (and once a top two--there was celebration that day!) so I have a pretty good cross-section of players.

Ohboy

You can't just consider people who are linked to a top coalition. These make up a really small fraction of the actual player base.

Outside of that bubble, everyone else didn't have a guaranteed mythic they could get when someone like you gives up his spot because he's already gotten them all.

Those are the people I'm talking about. The vast majority of people gained a non zero amount of mythic equity in the new reward system, up from zero in the past. That's a step up whether they realize it now or not.

You're basically saying that the only people you care gain mythics are the ones in your coalition. That's understandable, but can we at least agree that the devs probably aren't looking to give people special treatment just because they're affiliated with you? That's why the new rule isn't specifically advantageous to the newer people in your coalition. They're a blanket improvement to everyone in their weight class.

Sarahschmara

Hmm... I'm not quite sure I understand you, Ohboy?

Why can't people just join a winning coalition? It's super easy! There are a lot of them and many are full of really nice people! There are recruitment posts all the time. I think GP is recruiting. Magickman just started a new coalition that looks to be very promising!

Ohboy

Sarahschmara wrote:

Hmm... I'm not quite sure I understand you, Ohboy?

Why can't people just join a winning coalition? It's super easy! There are a lot of them and many are full of really nice people! There are recruitment posts all the time. I think GP is recruiting. Magickman just started a new coalition that looks to be very promising!

Because 20k players cannot fit into 10 coalitions. Do those people not matter?

Sarahschmara

No, they can't all fit. But I have a fair collection of mythics and I never played in a top ten coalition. I spend a lot of time grinding out progression (and more) and even more time talking strategy and deck advice and yet more time coordinating the schedules of several dozen players spanning all of the time zones to make sure we're getting the best possible prizes for everyone I am fortunate enough to play with.

Shouldn't our efforts be rewarded? Why should someone playing a few games here and there get the same payout as those that try harder?

Ohboy

Sarahschmara wrote:

No, they can't all fit. But I have a fair collection of mythics and I never played in a top ten coalition. I spend a lot of time grinding out progression (and more) and even more time talking strategy and deck advice and yet more time coordinating the schedules of several dozen players spanning all of the time zones to make sure we're getting the best possible prizes for everyone I am fortunate enough to play with.

Shouldn't our efforts be rewarded? Why should someone playing a few games here and there get the same payout as those that try harder?

You are being rewarded. You're not getting the same payout.

Sarahschmara

But it doesn't change the dynamics of the game. Again, I still have all of the mythics I've collected so far. Why not let me and my team help newer players collect their share of mythics too?

I guess that's what I don't understand about your argument, Ohboy.

Why should we hold top players back when statistics does it already. Why not keep lifting new players up?

MightyKrakyn

If the problem is that lower coalitions are not getting enough mythics, why not make mythics more accessible to them without ruining the pace that top 10 coalitions have? We've worked hard to be super competitive and be in this position. This change demeans what that hard work used to stand for. Give more mythics to lower tiers, I don't care. Just don't make this game move slower than it already does. We're going from a crawl to a halt.

Ohboy

We must both me missing something because what you're saying makes me sense to me either.

How are you more efficient at getting others mythics than the system already redistributing them via the new system?

There's no way to avoid sounding rude about this, but your way only benefits your friends.

Ohboy

MightyKrakyn wrote:

If the problem is that lower coalitions are not getting enough mythics, why not make mythics more accessible to them without ruining the pace that top 10 coalitions have? We've worked hard to be super competitive and be in this position. This change demeans what that hard work used to stand for. Give more mythics to lower tiers, I don't care. Just don't make this game move slower than it already does. We're going from a crawl to a halt.

You'll have to get the actual numbers from brigby, but my guess would be because giving out too many would cause a total collapse in sales.

Since free cards are a finite resource in a way, to give to the poor they have to take from the rich. Kind of like taking part of the ceo bonus and distributing to the staff so they can move out of the company store.

Sarahschmara

I don't understand what you mean, Ohboy? How is more mythics for new players only helping my friends? The easiest way to level the playing field is to narrow the gap a bit. This current rewards scheme doesn't narrow the gap, it just makes it harder for everyone.

MightyKrakyn

Ohboy wrote:

MightyKrakyn wrote:

If the problem is that lower coalitions are not getting enough mythics, why not make mythics more accessible to them without ruining the pace that top 10 coalitions have? We've worked hard to be super competitive and be in this position. This change demeans what that hard work used to stand for. Give more mythics to lower tiers, I don't care. Just don't make this game move slower than it already does. We're going from a crawl to a halt.

You'll have to get the actual numbers from brigby, but my guess would be because giving out too many would cause a total collapse in sales.

Since free cards are a finite resource in a way, to give to the poor they have to take from the rich.

Have sales collapsed at the current pace? Of course not, because duplicate rates are so high. They haven't fixed the duplicate rate AND they've killed the pace. If they lowered the price 50%, people would buy all the time, and they wouldn't even have to fix the duplicate issue any time soon. That in itself would halt the flood of mythics.

Sarah's solution benefits those on the top. Your solution only benefits people outside high ranking coalitions. Why can't we have both? This is incredibly stupid. THIS IS collapsing the economy.

You know what always spurs sales in my coalition? Somebody else getting a sweet mythic. Take that away and you take away hope, and you take away incentive. Nobody is going to buy, end of story. Make it more frequent, and you get more sales. Derp. And again, dupe issue solves problem of flooding.

Sarahschmara

But that's just it, Krakyn. The horrendous dupe rates themselves limit the amount of mythics any one player can acquire. With all the money you have spent, one would expect you to have all the cards. But you don't (do you?).

But we had a chance (albeit a small one) to get a new card here and there. How many of the mythics that you've won (as a part of a top coalition) have been new-to-you recently?

But newer players in a top ten are super-excited to get that prize! I pulled a few from packs I'd won (or bought with crystals I'd won). They were the opposite of common... but they were there.

MightyKrakyn

Sarahschmara wrote:

But that's just it, Krakyn. The horrendous dupe rates themselves limit the amount of mythics any one player can acquire. With all the money you have spent, one would expect you to have all the cards. But you don't (do you?).

But we had a chance (albeit a small one) to get a new card here and there. How many of the mythics that you've won (as a part of a top coalition) have been new-to-you recently?

But newer players in a top ten are super-excited to get that prize! I pulled a few from packs I'd won (or bought with crystals I'd won). They were the opposite of common... but they were there.

No, I don't have all the cards. I have 77/134. And I'm okay with that. But guess what, if they halved the cost I would've bought even more, and my awesome mythic gains would had others buy, albeit more moderately. It's a freaking win win for everyone. I spent THOUSANDS. My story of having so many mythics would still not be typical at half price. This is the solution for everyone. It really is.

Sarahschmara

Exactly so, Krakyn! People would buy to take a shortcut to epic-level play.

And (mostly) free to play (but willing to put in so. much. time.) players like me could acquire cards at a slightly slower pace.

I'm ok with you having ~20 more mythics than I do--you've earned them by parting with your money. And I've earned mine by parting with my time.

span_argoman

Sarahschmara wrote:

Exactly so, Krakyn! People would buy to take a shortcut to epic-level play.

And (mostly) free to play (but willing to put in so. much. time.) players like me could acquire cards at a slightly slower pace.

I'm ok with you having ~20 more mythics than I do--you've earned them by parting with your money. And I've earned mine by parting with my time.

Hi Sarah, I would like to weigh in on this discussion but I would like to clarify a few points regarding your stand:

1. Are you complaining that overall coalition rewards have diminished or are you specifically referring to the guaranteed Mythic that the top 10 (or 2 for the weekday coalition event) used to get? Because these are two separate issues imo even though they both can be classes as reducing coalition rewards.
2. Which part of the new coalition reward structure do you think is more disadvantageous for newer players. Try to give specifics instead of saying that it is generally less.

Thanks in advance.

MightyKrakyn

span_argoman wrote:

[*]Which part of the new coalition reward structure do you think is more disadvantageous for newer players. Try to give specifics instead of saying that it is generally less.[/list]
Thanks in advance.

I know you weren't asking me, but I'd love to give my two cents on this.

So the number of crystals as rewards in all levels has dropped. This is obvious, and clearly hurts newer players more because in addition to needing crystals for packs, they also need them for planeswalkers etc. Now the new mana jewels seem on the surface to benefit newer players more because it offers them a direct path to mythic cards a rate that is higher than zero.

But my disagreement with this is that mythic rate was higher than zero when we were more likely to get mythics in Big Boxes. Hibernum removed the "Guaranteed rare or better" and replaced it with "guaranteed rare" on the new premium.packs. this makes the crystals they receive now worth less than before, AND they are receiving less crystals overall. Also, the direct path to mythics ONLY provides a single card that is mythic or masterpiece per transaction. This means that they are not building a card base, but rather gathering powerful cards that they can't use reasonably. In addition to this, the reward for this pack would take weeks upon weeks for a lower player, and spending their already scant crystals on entry to paid events to get jewels.

It's a vicious cycle for newer players that will seriously disrupt all levels of their advancement. But that's just my two cents.

Telvar

Devs,
Ive been playing this game for 4-5 months now and have spent about usd 500 on this. The changes you have implemented with this update are unacceptable. I stop spending any cash until you change it and i have changed my review score to one star in the appstore.

I urge evryone else to do likewise and provide them with the most effective feedback possible.

Telvar

span_argoman

MightyKrakyn wrote:

span_argoman wrote:

[*]Which part of the new coalition reward structure do you think is more disadvantageous for newer players. Try to give specifics instead of saying that it is generally less.[/list]
Thanks in advance.

I know you weren't asking me, but I'd love to give my two cents on this.

So the number of crystals as rewards in all levels has dropped. This is obvious, and clearly hurts newer players more because in addition to needing crystals for packs, they also need them for planeswalkers etc. Now the new mana jewels seem on the surface to benefit newer players more because it offers them a direct path to mythic cards a rate that is higher than zero.

But my disagreement with this is that mythic rate was higher than zero when we were more likely to get mythics in Big Boxes. Hibernum removed the "Guaranteed rare or better" and replaced it with "guaranteed rare" on the new premium.packs. this makes the crystals they receive now worth less than before, AND they are receiving less crystals overall. Also, the direct path to mythics ONLY provides a single card that is mythic or masterpiece per transaction. This means that they are not building a card base, but rather gathering powerful cards that they can't use reasonably. In addition to this, the reward for this pack would take weeks upon weeks for a lower player, and spending their already scant crystals on entry to paid events to get jewels.

It's a vicious cycle for newer players that will seriously disrupt all levels of their advancement. But that's just my two cents.

You're perfectly welcome to contribute too! I was just directing it to Sarahschmara cause she was the last poster in the topic.

If we're talking specifically about coalition rewards for Revolt Against the Consulate, the number of Crystals awarded more or less stayed the same. It's slightly more for the top coalitions but 101-500 get 10 Crystals less while 501-1000 now get 10 Crystals up from 0. The awarding of Mana Jewels has came at the expense of the Fat Packs / 5-card Boosters that the old RAtC used to award and the guaranteed Mythics for the top coalitions. Here is the reward structure for comparison:
Rank: Reward
1-2: AER Rare 30 Jewels 120 Crystals
3-10: AER Rare 15 Jewels 80 Crystals
11-25: AER Rare 10 Jewels 50 Crystals
26-50: AER Rare 5 Jewels 40 Crystals
51-100: AER Rare 4 Jewels 30 Crystals
101-250: 3 Jewels 20 Crystals
251-500: 2 Jewels 10 Crystals
501-1000: 1 Jewel 10 Crystals
1001-10000: 250 Runes

Old RAtC
Revolt Against the Consulate Coalition Ranking
Rank Reward
1-2: AER Mythic KLD Fat Pack 100 Crystals
3-10: AER Mythic KLD booster 75 Crystals
11-25: AER Rare KLD booster 50 Crystals
26-50: AER Rare KLD booster 40 Crystals
51-100: AER Rare 30 Crystals
101-250: 30 Crystals
251-500: 20 Crystals
501-1000: 750 Runes
1001-10000: 250 Runes

As for Progression rewards for RAtC, I unfortunately did not record down the old Progression Rewards for the lower tiers for RAtC. But there was definitely a drop in Crystals in exchange for Jewels for Platinum so I assume the same for the other tiers. This also happened for the OGW event. However, these are separate issues from coalition rewards and hence it's best not to conflate them.

I agree that having lesser Crystals hurts the lower tiers more. But it's hard to gauge the overall impact until we can calculate how much players get over a week of play, including boosters and all. We'll have to wait for Monday to see the reward structures of the new single-day events for that though.

Also yes, while the old Big Boxes have a non-zero chance of giving a player a Mythic card, the new Premium packs also do as well. We just need more data to figure out how much the difference is.