Coalition rewards are in!

Ohboy

madwren wrote:

They didn't just move the goalposts on top 20 coalitions, they did it to everyone. It will still be far easier for top coalitions to procure cards. This solves nothing and creates a burden on All players.

The distance has shortened considerably.

Outside top 10, we got rares as rewards. Past a certain point, it's pretty worthless compared to mythics.

Meanwhile, people in top 10 quickly saturate their mythic collections.

Now everyone gets jewels. Yes, top 10 still gets more. But now we get a piece of the mythic pie instead of nothing at all.

Gideon

I knew you'd chime in ohboy. What does it take to piss you off? You are D3s ideal customer. You always side with the devs no matter what.

Mainloop25

@ohboy I had assumed that you were in a top ten coalition this whole time. Is that not the case?

Off-topic, your Kiora is pretty nasty. It got me once during the green event. Crush of Tentacles followed by 3 DesoTwins is pretty rough.

Ohboy

Gideon wrote:

I knew you'd chime in ohboy. What does it take to piss you off? You are D3s ideal customer. You always side with the devs no matter what.

What are you talking about. This is something I've been fighting against the devs for since coalitions were a thing. You guys have been enjoying watching me bang my head against the wall for months, and occasionally mocking me for my efforts.

Ohboy

Mainloop25 wrote:

@ohboy I had assumed that you were in a top ten coalition this whole time. Is that not the case?

Off-topic, your Kiora is pretty nasty. It got me once during the green event. Crush of Tentacles followed by 3 DesoTwins is pretty rough.

Nah I've never been in one. Made a coalition when it came out, and I've stuck with it since.

I'm glad to see my decks might actually be played against at last! Did you meet my other green decks? Should I finally bother making them challenging?

Mainloop25

No just your Kiora twice. Baral made it easy the second time, as it does everything.

MightyKrakyn

Mana gems or jewels or whatever were and are still a good call. Implementation is poor. The rates are bad. The chances of dupes are bad.

To ohboy: what kind of scale of progression are you looking for? I don't feel like I'm progressing fast enough, especially because of endless duplicates, and I'm in a top ten (in events) coalition?

I play games for progression. I want to feel like I'm achieving something tangible and gaining power, on a faster scale than a week or two between POSSIBLE CHANCES at mythics. Life moves fast man. This is not investment freaking banking. It's a game. I shouldn't need a five year plan.

Ohboy

MightyKrakyn wrote:

Mana gems or jewels or whatever were and are still a good call. Implementation is poor. The rates are bad. The chances of dupes are bad.

To ohboy: what kind of scale of progression are you looking for? I don't feel like I'm progressing fast enough, especially because of endless duplicates, and I'm in a top ten (in events) coalition?

I play games for progression. I want to feel like I'm achieving something tangible and gaining power, on a faster scale than a week or two between POSSIBLE CHANCES at mythics. Life moves fast man. This is not investment freaking banking. It's a game. I shouldn't need a five year plan.

You could join the rest of the 99% of the population in this game who aren't in the top 10 coalition for a few weeks to see the difference.

For the average player, a week or two between mythics is a pretty brisk pace.

The problem is, you've been on performance enhancement drugs and comparing yourself with others pumping the same drugs. you feel you can't settle for merely fast anymore.

Ok let's look at it another way. If everyone gained mythics at the pace you find acceptable for free, the game wouldn't exist. At some point, balance must be struck.

You don't need a five year plan to play a game. The people who make the game do.

losdamianos

MightyKrakyn wrote:

Mana gems or jewels or whatever were and are still a good call.

How is introduction of another currency a good thing
please explain give us an example of why this would be better than offering masterpieces for crystals.
How much ? as much as it needs to be 2-3k doesnt matter it could be done without introducing another currency

Those jewels were introduced purely as a smoke screen to have reason to downgrade most of the events and rewards for everything.

Im pretty sure that whales would easily jump on 2-3k mythic/masterpieces packs and we wouldnt have such a big backlash

They knew EXCACTLY what they were doing thats why pre patch we were given only partial information like "PAID" events we were all led to believe that once you enter you will easily get your crystals back after completing few tiers, just like it used to be pre bloody 1.10.2 patch

Im not even mad anymore Im just dissapointed

ZW2007-

Ohboy wrote:

madwren wrote:

They didn't just move the goalposts on top 20 coalitions, they did it to everyone. It will still be far easier for top coalitions to procure cards. This solves nothing and creates a burden on All players.

The distance has shortened considerably.

Outside top 10, we got rares as rewards. Past a certain point, it's pretty worthless compared to mythics.

Meanwhile, people in top 10 quickly saturate their mythic collections.

Now everyone gets jewels. Yes, top 10 still gets more. But now we get a piece of the mythic pie instead of nothing at all.

Except before you could get mythics from big boxes which you could buy with crystals that you earned through events. Those big boxes also had a guaranteed rare or better. Sure, you probably didn't get a mythic from that guaranteed card often but it was a possibility. That is no longer the case. Previous drop rates were pretty well figured out to be 1 mythic in 2 big boxes or 1 mythic per 1200 crystals. Assuming mythics still appear at the same rate on a per card opened basis, you are looking at 1 mythic per approximately 1800 crystals. They used smoke and mirrors to make you think you are getting a bigger piece of the pie. Let's pretend your slice got 1/8 larger thanks to jewels. They distracted you with that extra 1/8 of a slice while the other hand was taking away 1/4 of your original slice. Don't forget they are also handing out even less crystals now as well.

Ohboy wrote:

This is something I've been fighting against the devs for since coalitions were a thing. You guys have been enjoying watching me bang my head against the wall for months, and occasionally mocking me for my efforts.

You have very heavily advocated for them to remove mythic rewards so I'm not sure what you mean about this. Your fight against the devs was a fight for top 10s to not get mythics. You have now won that fight and this is the result.

ZW2007-

Ohboy wrote:

MightyKrakyn wrote:

Mana gems or jewels or whatever were and are still a good call. Implementation is poor. The rates are bad. The chances of dupes are bad.

To ohboy: what kind of scale of progression are you looking for? I don't feel like I'm progressing fast enough, especially because of endless duplicates, and I'm in a top ten (in events) coalition?

I play games for progression. I want to feel like I'm achieving something tangible and gaining power, on a faster scale than a week or two between POSSIBLE CHANCES at mythics. Life moves fast man. This is not investment freaking banking. It's a game. I shouldn't need a five year plan.

You could join the rest of the 99% of the population in this game who aren't in the top 10 coalition for a few weeks to see the difference.

For the average player, a week or two between mythics is a pretty brisk pace.

The problem is, you've been on performance enhancement drugs and comparing yourself with others pumping the same drugs. you feel you can't settle for merely fast anymore.

Ok let's look at it another way. If everyone gained mythics at the pace you find acceptable for free, the game wouldn't exist. At some point, balance must be struck.

You don't need a five year plan to play a game. The people who make the game do.

How many mythics from KLD and AER do you own that are non-exclusives? Same for rares? Break it apart by sets please. I'd like to make a comparison with you.

MightyKrakyn

Ohboy wrote:

MightyKrakyn wrote:

Mana gems or jewels or whatever were and are still a good call. Implementation is poor. The rates are bad. The chances of dupes are bad.

To ohboy: what kind of scale of progression are you looking for? I don't feel like I'm progressing fast enough, especially because of endless duplicates, and I'm in a top ten (in events) coalition?

I play games for progression. I want to feel like I'm achieving something tangible and gaining power, on a faster scale than a week or two between POSSIBLE CHANCES at mythics. Life moves fast man. This is not investment freaking banking. It's a game. I shouldn't need a five year plan.

You could join the rest of the 99% of the population in this game who aren't in the top 10 coalition for a few weeks to see the difference.

For the average player, a week or two between mythics is a pretty brisk pace.

The problem is, you've been on performance enhancement drugs and comparing yourself with others pumping the same drugs. you feel you can't settle for merely fast anymore.

Ok let's look at it another way. If everyone gained mythics at the pace you find acceptable for free, the game wouldn't exist. At some point, balance must be struck.

You don't need a five year plan to play a game. The people who make the game do.

So there's 134 mythics. One every 2 weeks = 5.15 years to collect all the mythics available now, not even with new content over that time, assuming there are no dupes. There's a reason I chose that number. It wasn't random. The balancing is happening on the wrong end of this game. The bottom needs to be raised up.

I've spent a couple thousand dollars on this game and joined a top 10 coalition SPECIFICALLY to make it go faster. That's the idea. They directly make it slower again, not just for top 10 but for lower coalitions too? It's a losing battle for everyone. I still have only 77/134 mythics with all the money I've spent and the time i put into a top 10. And I'm fine with that number at the pace I was going and, while slightly annoyed at the prices, I was still paying. Why would I spend more money now for more barriers? What you're suggesting is that the game stagnate as hard as possible.

Lower levels should get them faster; not the other way around. Prices should be reduced, not raised - for everybody's benefit including Hibernum, not my own - I'm willing to pay higher prices than 99% of the game, so it would only help them. I'll say it again. I should not, nor should anybody else, have to have a 5 year plan for this game.

losdamianos

Ohboy wrote:

MightyKrakyn wrote:

Mana gems or jewels or whatever were and are still a good call. Implementation is poor. The rates are bad. The chances of dupes are bad.

To ohboy: what kind of scale of progression are you looking for? I don't feel like I'm progressing fast enough, especially because of endless duplicates, and I'm in a top ten (in events) coalition?

I play games for progression. I want to feel like I'm achieving something tangible and gaining power, on a faster scale than a week or two between POSSIBLE CHANCES at mythics. Life moves fast man. This is not investment freaking banking. It's a game. I shouldn't need a five year plan.

You could join the rest of the 99% of the population in this game who aren't in the top 10 coalition for a few weeks to see the difference.

It would be pretty safe to assume that most paying players are in top coalitions. D3 has targetted their own feeding hand this is ridiculous

madwren

Ohboy wrote:

You could join the rest of the 99% of the population in this game who aren't in the top 10 coalition for a few weeks to see the difference.

Ultimately, what matters is whether players feel that the rewards are proportionate to the time invested.

The mass rebellion provides strong evidence that a significant portion of the player base now feels they are not. This is not only true for players active on the forums, but also people who had never posted and were inspired to come and complain solely due to these changes.

You seem to assume that those people in the lower tier were content with their investment-to-reward ratio, or that those of us in top-10 coalitions don't know how the lower tiers live, despite the fact we're in daily contact with them--and in many cases, play in those tiers ourselves on secondary accounts. We very much know what the difference is. That's why many of us have argued and fought to level the playing field for the lower tiers, and to give them a hand up where we can.

Lower tiers have not been satisfied with the rewards for time invested, but the carrot being dangled before them was that by grinding and collecting, despite the paltry lower-tier rewards, they could work their way up through the tiers and earn higher ones. They still can, but it is now harder, because their source of income has been slashed. Crystals, the primary method of bettering one's collection--through new planeswalkers and big boxes--have been devalued. This is backwards. This makes it harder for them.

Players will not ever want MORE work for LESS reward. That's not how most people function. With one group relatively satisfied, and values being consistent for several months, the sensible course of action would be to bolster the dissatisfied group rather than diminish the satisfied group. The latter would be a recipe for revolt--and here we are.

Ohboy

losdamianos wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

MightyKrakyn wrote:

Mana gems or jewels or whatever were and are still a good call. Implementation is poor. The rates are bad. The chances of dupes are bad.

To ohboy: what kind of scale of progression are you looking for? I don't feel like I'm progressing fast enough, especially because of endless duplicates, and I'm in a top ten (in events) coalition?

I play games for progression. I want to feel like I'm achieving something tangible and gaining power, on a faster scale than a week or two between POSSIBLE CHANCES at mythics. Life moves fast man. This is not investment freaking banking. It's a game. I shouldn't need a five year plan.

You could join the rest of the 99% of the population in this game who aren't in the top 10 coalition for a few weeks to see the difference.

It would be pretty safe to assume that most paying players are in top coalitions. D3 has targetted their own feeding hand this is ridiculous

That would be a rather odd assumption to make. I'm in 3 coalition chats that are outside top 10, and people there spend money too.

But I'm curious to hear your line of reasoning on why people who get more free cards weekly would be the ones spending more. Are you under the impression that people outside the top coalitions don't like to win/get new cards?

Ohboy

losdamianos wrote:

They knew EXCACTLY what they were doing thats why pre patch we were given only partial information like "PAID" events we were all led to believe that once you enter you will easily get your crystals back after completing few tiers, just like it used to be pre bloody 1.10.2 patch

Im not even mad anymore Im just dissapointed

No they didn't. They heavily implied that you got back your cost as a booster and the jewels were your bonus for doing well.

The complaints and comparisons of booster not being worth 60 crystals started before the patch hit.

Ohboy

ZW2007- wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

madwren wrote:

They didn't just move the goalposts on top 20 coalitions, they did it to everyone. It will still be far easier for top coalitions to procure cards. This solves nothing and creates a burden on All players.

The distance has shortened considerably.

Outside top 10, we got rares as rewards. Past a certain point, it's pretty worthless compared to mythics.

Meanwhile, people in top 10 quickly saturate their mythic collections.

Now everyone gets jewels. Yes, top 10 still gets more. But now we get a piece of the mythic pie instead of nothing at all.

Except before you could get mythics from big boxes which you could buy with crystals that you earned through events. Those big boxes also had a guaranteed rare or better. Sure, you probably didn't get a mythic from that guaranteed card often but it was a possibility. That is no longer the case. Previous drop rates were pretty well figured out to be 1 mythic in 2 big boxes or 1 mythic per 1200 crystals. Assuming mythics still appear at the same rate on a per card opened basis, you are looking at 1 mythic per approximately 1800 crystals. They used smoke and mirrors to make you think you are getting a bigger piece of the pie. Let's pretend your slice got 1/8 larger thanks to jewels. They distracted you with that extra 1/8 of a slice while the other hand was taking away 1/4 of your original slice. Don't forget they are also handing out even less crystals now as well.

Ohboy wrote:

This is something I've been fighting against the devs for since coalitions were a thing. You guys have been enjoying watching me bang my head against the wall for months, and occasionally mocking me for my efforts.

You have very heavily advocated for them to remove mythic rewards so I'm not sure what you mean about this. Your fight against the devs was a fight for top 10s to not get mythics. You have now won that fight and this is the result.

I'm not denying that crystals have fallen in value. That's not the argument. The argument is that the distance between the value of a top event prize and it's subsequent tiers have shortened. That's not even remotely the same thing.

So I fight for half a year to get it done, and once I actually win, I've always been agreeable to the dev's decisions? What, have we always been at war with Eastasia? This is some ministry of truth double think there.

Theros

I like the changes to coalition rewards. Individual reward should also not reward mythics. With that in place, the system would be perfect if and only if ties are rewarded equality and get same rank. People can use crystals to buys packs. Drop rates are low anyway, d3 has nothing to lose. As it is/was getting a perfect does not guarantee a top 10 spot due to a flawed system. This is why I personally try for progression rewards only

What I don't like about the update is the crystal nerf for regular events. With the nerf, it makes more sense to drop the price of PWs and since packs have also been lowered. It takes less than 2 weeks to grind 650 crystals by participating in all events previously. Now it will take longer with the nerf. Imagine missing a dual colored PW because you could not collect 650 crystal in time and have to wait another 6 weeks for it to rotate?

Ohboy

madwren wrote:

Ohboy wrote:

You could join the rest of the 99% of the population in this game who aren't in the top 10 coalition for a few weeks to see the difference.

Ultimately, what matters is whether players feel that the rewards are proportionate to the time invested.

The mass rebellion provides strong evidence that a significant portion of the player base now feels they are not. This is not only true for players active on the forums, but also people who had never posted and were inspired to come and complain solely due to these changes.

You seem to assume that those people in the lower tier were content with their investment-to-reward ratio, or that those of us in top-10 coalitions don't know how the lower tiers live, despite the fact we're in daily contact with them--and in many cases, play in those tiers ourselves on secondary accounts. We very much know what the difference is. That's why many of us have argued and fought to level the playing field for the lower tiers, and to give them a hand up where we can.

Lower tiers have not been satisfied with the rewards for time invested, but the carrot being dangled before them was that by grinding and collecting, despite the paltry lower-tier rewards, they could work their way up through the tiers and earn higher ones. They still can, but it is now harder, because their source of income has been slashed. Crystals, the primary method of bettering one's collection--through new planeswalkers and big boxes--have been devalued. This is backwards. This makes it harder for them.

Players will not ever want MORE work for LESS reward. That's not how most people function. With one group relatively satisfied, and values being consistent for several months, the sensible course of action would be to bolster the dissatisfied group rather than diminish the satisfied group. The latter would be a recipe for revolt--and here we are.

Again, I'm not denying that crystals have fallen in value. I'm simply saying the distance between the top and mid tier players have shortened, which I will always defend is a good thing.

Obviously no one is content with what they have. Even at the height of mythic madness, yunnn was complaining there weren't enough unique mythics for him to loot. We're inherently greedy. But the game requires certain scarcity to support it's costs. It's the part of the game people never consider when they demand stuff.

Packs costing more was unfortunately always in the stars however. Their previous reward system was simply unsustainable, and now we're paying the piper. I have a feeling the devs already put this off till it was no longer an option. They're not stupid. Anyone would have seen the backlash coming.

Sarahschmara

I guess what I don't understand is why they took this backwards approach?

Part of the fun for me, personally, is the coalition game. Figuring out the way to consistently score the best possible prizes for my teammates and coordinating schedules of so many great people from all over the world.

We do a good job most of the time and we're a pretty happy bunch across all levels of play. We love seeing our new players succeed! We're all about lifting each other up and this change seems to hold people down instead.

If Ohboy is correct and the current situation is unfair (and I don't necessarily agree with that) then the only way to restore balance is to give the low end more chances at success. They didnt take my mythics from me, they made it harder than ever for others to catch up.