Cyclops (Classic) Limited Vault

Mr_Sinister

carrion pigeons wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

We get them free with progression in pve and PvP more than one a week , and it's every bit as random as that vault. No shields needed in pve either, so that hurts that 1k value. At most I'll spend 450 in PvP, so that's less than half for a 4* cover. I also get every reward leading up to that, including 10cp, which is absent from these vaults. Oh, and I get 2* just for winning a match now and then, completely free. Also hurting the value is the amount of 4* there are with no end in sight to how many are added.
Maybe the problem is that these vaults are "one size fits all" when they shouldn't be. Have security clearance level vaults with level appropriate items and prices. Low Shield level people have tier level items that appeal to them, a mix of current and near future needs, priced to reflect that. Take that premise and extend it up, increasing price and rewards to reflect where the player is roster wise in the game and the amount of HP they can accrue, and are willing to spend should they be short and want a vault.
If I'm level 75, deep into 4*, I don't want see more 4* vaults, I see enough of those covers through the course of the game. If I'm seeing a 5*, a couple 4* covers, some Iso, and maybe healthpacks for 5k or 6k...hmmm something to consider. My price, and items, increased based in my playing experience and both are in line with where I am in game.

They *do* scale in value, just more invisibly than you notice. They scale in value because HP is worth less the further into the game you are. For a 2* player, spending several thousand HP on a vault is a huge splurge that costs them multiple roster slots. For someone who has most of the characters rostered but isn't really competing, he's giving up several hops or maybe boosts for a Crash. For an advanced player who has HP coming out their ears, it costs them basically nothing. For a whale who buys thousands upon thousands of HP only because buy clubs are the fastest way to get CP, it's actually pure positive value, since the only other thing they have to do with that HP is reset a bigger vault so they can buy it out again.

You can't compare the price of items in a vault to the stuff you get via regular play, at least not directly, not unless regular play satisfies demand for the items (which it does not). There's a hard limit to the amount of tokens with a chance at a 4* you can get per day without spending HP. HP gives you access to something you can't get through regular play: a way to pass that limit.

Tl;dr they don't have the value, despite your insistence they do or these threads wouldn't be a weekly event.


Let's not play semantics. I stated very clearly what kind of scaling system would entice people to spend over the current system that doesn't. Telling me they scale "invisibly" and I don't notice is just trying to put a check mark in the "I'm smarter than you" category rather than make a solid argument. 3.6k is easy to get, it's still a bad vault, "invisible" scaling or not.

You can compare, and I did compare. You're trying to make an easy topic more complicated by being "nuanced" with how you talk about it, but it's not complicated. There's nothing in these vaults I can't get in very literally a single day of play. That's not worth 3.6k, even as easy as it is for me to get. And that's from the perspective of the HP being free! Under no circumstances would I spend $30 to clear one of these vaults.
Every week these threads are made and the prevailing sentiment is these vaults are not worth it. Offering a product most customers don't want is bad business, especially after being told it repeatedly over the course of a couple months. 4* cover is not a lure; I have hundreds of them. 3* covers I barely register which character it is as most times I simply click to add champ level. 2* covers... I'm not buying these vaults with my eye on those either. Champ levels are great, not 3.6k great, I'll wait for next pve sub to end and get some then.

GuntherBlobel

I think everyone is misunderstanding the point of these vaults. It's not about the 4* cover.

The limited vaults are a new kind of behavioral psychology study that lets the participants fund the research! In a few months we'll finally know the answer to certain burning questions concerning what is it to be human. Like, "Do people feel compelled to buy things in groups of 5, or maybe 20?" "What if 10 is an option?" "What if it isn't?"

I'm on the edge of my seat --- just dying to know.

carrion_pigeons

Mr_Sinister wrote:

carrion pigeons wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

We get them free with progression in pve and PvP more than one a week , and it's every bit as random as that vault. No shields needed in pve either, so that hurts that 1k value. At most I'll spend 450 in PvP, so that's less than half for a 4* cover. I also get every reward leading up to that, including 10cp, which is absent from these vaults. Oh, and I get 2* just for winning a match now and then, completely free. Also hurting the value is the amount of 4* there are with no end in sight to how many are added.
Maybe the problem is that these vaults are "one size fits all" when they shouldn't be. Have security clearance level vaults with level appropriate items and prices. Low Shield level people have tier level items that appeal to them, a mix of current and near future needs, priced to reflect that. Take that premise and extend it up, increasing price and rewards to reflect where the player is roster wise in the game and the amount of HP they can accrue, and are willing to spend should they be short and want a vault.
If I'm level 75, deep into 4*, I don't want see more 4* vaults, I see enough of those covers through the course of the game. If I'm seeing a 5*, a couple 4* covers, some Iso, and maybe healthpacks for 5k or 6k...hmmm something to consider. My price, and items, increased based in my playing experience and both are in line with where I am in game.

They *do* scale in value, just more invisibly than you notice. They scale in value because HP is worth less the further into the game you are. For a 2* player, spending several thousand HP on a vault is a huge splurge that costs them multiple roster slots. For someone who has most of the characters rostered but isn't really competing, he's giving up several hops or maybe boosts for a Crash. For an advanced player who has HP coming out their ears, it costs them basically nothing. For a whale who buys thousands upon thousands of HP only because buy clubs are the fastest way to get CP, it's actually pure positive value, since the only other thing they have to do with that HP is reset a bigger vault so they can buy it out again.

You can't compare the price of items in a vault to the stuff you get via regular play, at least not directly, not unless regular play satisfies demand for the items (which it does not). There's a hard limit to the amount of tokens with a chance at a 4* you can get per day without spending HP. HP gives you access to something you can't get through regular play: a way to pass that limit.

Tl;dr they don't have the value, despite your insistence they do or these threads wouldn't be a weekly event.


Let's not play semantics. I stated very clearly what kind of scaling system would entice people to spend over the current system that doesn't. Telling me they scale "invisibly" and I don't notice is just trying to put a check mark in the "I'm smarter than you" category rather than make a solid argument. 3.6k is easy to get, it's still a bad vault, "invisible" scaling or not.

You can compare, and I did compare. You're trying to make an easy topic more complicated by being "nuanced" with how you talk about it, but it's not complicated. There's nothing in these vaults I can't get in very literally a single day of play. That's not worth 3.6k, even as easy as it is for me to get. And that's from the perspective of the HP being free! Under no circumstances would I spend $30 to clear one of these vaults.
Every week these threads are made and the prevailing sentiment is these vaults are not worth it. Offering a product most customers don't want is bad business, especially after being told it repeatedly over the course of a couple months. 4* cover is not a lure; I have hundreds of them. 3* covers I barely register which character it is as most times I simply click to add champ level. 2* covers... I'm not buying these vaults with my eye on those either. Champ levels are great, not 3.6k great, I'll wait for next pve sub to end and get some then.

My argument is that they don't need to be enticing for them to be good design. You're simply wrong that they need to have 5*s in them to make people buy them, that's obvious by the fact that people are buying them.

Every day I get junk mail with offers I wouldn't pay for in a million years. But obviously someone likes that stuff, because businesses have been doing it for actual centuries. Low-value, low-impact goods fill an important niche in any economy.

KillaBeeSwarm

Sounds like people have different three star covers in their vault than me. I have , and , what about other folks?

Edit: never mind. I re-read the first post and see that the three 3* covers are random.

Wonko33

Rick OShay wrote:

Wonko33 wrote:

bought

Had not bought one in weeks, just a matter of being the right cover for me - I would have gotten X-23 if it had not been green last week too.

Single pull was nice, I probably would have gone for it a few weeks even if the covers were not crucial, as it is now I only go for the 20X when I really need it.

Curious if you bought it outright at 3600HP? Because IF I had 4000HP I would have risked that 400 difference on the case that I could have hit it during within the first 3 attempts of 1000 each. Hit Cyc blue early, stop and save HP. Get it on the 4th spend of 1000HP, then that's just a 400 tax for being unlucky the first 3 attempts.
Of course, I know my luck... so I would need to let my sons do the pulls.

bought it straight up - it's like a 50-50 chance of having to pay 400 more so I did not bother

snlf25

I absolutely 100% patently refuse to pay these kind of prices for vaults half full of 2* trash (with the exception of Peggy covers being at stake). I'm not going to spend HP on garbage and that's what a significant portion of these "prizes" are. You want me to spend - then make me feel like I'm getting value no matter what I pull from the vault! The bare minimum prizes in these should be 3*s or 2500 iso. And don't say that's outrageous - you are wrong and I don't want to hear it. This is a 5* game now. Period full stop end of story. Don't tell me about newbs either because you are still wrong because newbs can pull of dozens of 2* a week. They fall out of the friggen sky for Odin's sake and it's beyond time for them to be dialed back and for us to be given better value.

Mr_Sinister

carrion pigeons wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

carrion pigeons wrote:

Mr_Sinister wrote:

We get them free with progression in pve and PvP more than one a week , and it's every bit as random as that vault. No shields needed in pve either, so that hurts that 1k value. At most I'll spend 450 in PvP, so that's less than half for a 4* cover. I also get every reward leading up to that, including 10cp, which is absent from these vaults. Oh, and I get 2* just for winning a match now and then, completely free. Also hurting the value is the amount of 4* there are with no end in sight to how many are added.
Maybe the problem is that these vaults are "one size fits all" when they shouldn't be. Have security clearance level vaults with level appropriate items and prices. Low Shield level people have tier level items that appeal to them, a mix of current and near future needs, priced to reflect that. Take that premise and extend it up, increasing price and rewards to reflect where the player is roster wise in the game and the amount of HP they can accrue, and are willing to spend should they be short and want a vault.
If I'm level 75, deep into 4*, I don't want see more 4* vaults, I see enough of those covers through the course of the game. If I'm seeing a 5*, a couple 4* covers, some Iso, and maybe healthpacks for 5k or 6k...hmmm something to consider. My price, and items, increased based in my playing experience and both are in line with where I am in game.

They *do* scale in value, just more invisibly than you notice. They scale in value because HP is worth less the further into the game you are. For a 2* player, spending several thousand HP on a vault is a huge splurge that costs them multiple roster slots. For someone who has most of the characters rostered but isn't really competing, he's giving up several hops or maybe boosts for a Crash. For an advanced player who has HP coming out their ears, it costs them basically nothing. For a whale who buys thousands upon thousands of HP only because buy clubs are the fastest way to get CP, it's actually pure positive value, since the only other thing they have to do with that HP is reset a bigger vault so they can buy it out again.

You can't compare the price of items in a vault to the stuff you get via regular play, at least not directly, not unless regular play satisfies demand for the items (which it does not). There's a hard limit to the amount of tokens with a chance at a 4* you can get per day without spending HP. HP gives you access to something you can't get through regular play: a way to pass that limit.

Tl;dr they don't have the value, despite your insistence they do or these threads wouldn't be a weekly event.


Let's not play semantics. I stated very clearly what kind of scaling system would entice people to spend over the current system that doesn't. Telling me they scale "invisibly" and I don't notice is just trying to put a check mark in the "I'm smarter than you" category rather than make a solid argument. 3.6k is easy to get, it's still a bad vault, "invisible" scaling or not.

You can compare, and I did compare. You're trying to make an easy topic more complicated by being "nuanced" with how you talk about it, but it's not complicated. There's nothing in these vaults I can't get in very literally a single day of play. That's not worth 3.6k, even as easy as it is for me to get. And that's from the perspective of the HP being free! Under no circumstances would I spend $30 to clear one of these vaults.
Every week these threads are made and the prevailing sentiment is these vaults are not worth it. Offering a product most customers don't want is bad business, especially after being told it repeatedly over the course of a couple months. 4* cover is not a lure; I have hundreds of them. 3* covers I barely register which character it is as most times I simply click to add champ level. 2* covers... I'm not buying these vaults with my eye on those either. Champ levels are great, not 3.6k great, I'll wait for next pve sub to end and get some then.

My argument is that they don't need to be enticing for them to be good design. You're simply wrong that they need to have 5*s in them to make people buy them, that's obvious by the fact that people are buying them.

Every day I get junk mail with offers I wouldn't pay for in a million years. But obviously someone likes that stuff, because businesses have been doing it for actual centuries. Low-value, low-impact goods fill an important niche in any economy.

Yeah, true enough. If that's what they are looking to achieve,they hit bullseye cause these vaults are low value, low impact.

I see them as an ability to improve the game and make money. They could use shield levels as a gateway, a progression latter. Each tier has greater rewards and greater price attached. Not every tier should have 5*, that should be at the later, proper shield levels that align with the proper roster progression.

This vault doesn't appeal to those in my position and above and because of that a sale is not made. That is not a good thing for them. They want sales, I want game contet that entices me to oblige.

Lytes420

My cyclops is already champed and at level 328.so it's a pass for me.i probably would have broken down and bought the vault if I had one more level on him.another champ level and a legendary token would have been too hard to pass up.

fanghoul

DaveR4470 wrote:

Gonna crowdsource this:

My Cyke is at 5-4-1. I use him a lot, but his blue is.... yeah.

I can use the 3 3* covers in my vault (Witch, Blade, Panther) for champing.

I've got enough to buy out the vault and still have a couple thousand HP left.

I ask the crowd: Is it worth it to get that blue?

(I'm leaning towards no, but Cyke is such a great char that I wanted to be sure.)

I mean, you could, because it takes him that much closer to being able to champion, and that much higher max level.

On the other hand, I have a 0/3/5 Cyclops and it is rather grim...

(Also, I'm obviously not buying from this vault for that reason!)

Dormammu

snlf25 wrote:

I absolutely 100% patently refuse to pay these kind of prices for vaults half full of 2* trash (with the exception of Peggy covers being at stake). I'm not going to spend HP on garbage and that's what a significant portion of these "prizes" are. You want me to spend - then make me feel like I'm getting value no matter what I pull from the vault! The bare minimum prizes in these should be 3*s or 2500 iso. And don't say that's outrageous - you are wrong and I don't want to hear it. This is a 5* game now. Period full stop end of story. Don't tell me about newbs either because you are still wrong because newbs can pull of dozens of 2* a week. They fall out of the friggen sky for Odin's sake and it's beyond time for them to be dialed back and for us to be given better value.

I agree with you on everything you said except one thing.

This is not a 5-star game. I've been here since the beginning and have yet to put a single point of iso into a 5-star. No one can tell me this is a 5-star game when I've been playing, having fun, and competing without 5-stars. This is only a 5-star game for a relative few, and many of us down here 'beneath' them don't envy the 5-star player's roster limitations or scaling problems.

insound0

I thought it was wierd that my vault had a blue. I was thinking about getting his red as mine is 1/2/5. So obviously my thoughts instantly turned to ****. And the pricing is just wierd. Stupid.

carrion_pigeons

Mr_Sinister wrote:

Yeah, true enough. If that's what they are looking to achieve,they hit bullseye cause these vaults are low value, low impact.

I see them as an ability to improve the game and make money. They could use shield levels as a gateway, a progression latter. Each tier has greater rewards and greater price attached. Not every tier should have 5*, that should be at the later, proper shield levels that align with the proper roster progression.

This vault doesn't appeal to those in my position and above and because of that a sale is not made. That is not a good thing for them. They want sales, I want game contet that entices me to oblige.

I won't contest that it isn't appealing. But being appealing isn't their only consideration. Let's say they designed it to be appealing, and they did a perfect job: every single person had a vault tailored to their specific roster level, so that it contained the exact minimum amount of "worthwhile" covers it would need to have in order for them to feel good about making it their highest priority for their HP every single week. Could that last?

Of course not. Everyone would rapidly fall behind on Iso, and lots of players would get scaled out of being able to play with characters they like, and anyone who took a week off would find themselves falling behind and get upset about it, and people would get disillusioned and frustrated and burnt out. This already happens all the time, imagine if they increased the pace of progress (and the associated grinding for Iso) even more.

Hardly anything exists which is aimed to be sold to *everyone*. There is no doubt that they're using these vaults as a way to drain a certain amount of HP out of the economy, and it's being carefully managed to only appeal to a limited number of people. This is good and necessary. The fact that these threads come up every week arguing over the vaults is a great demonstration that they're hitting really close to the point they want it to be at, because there are clearly plenty of people on both sides of the fence - even people who suddenly find themselves switching sides from week to week based on particular vault contents.

DaveR4470

DesertTortoise wrote:

DaveR4470 wrote:

Gonna crowdsource this:

My Cyke is at 5-4-1. I use him a lot, but his blue is.... yeah.

I can use the 3 3* covers in my vault (Witch, Blade, Panther) for champing.

I've got enough to buy out the vault and still have a couple thousand HP left.

I ask the crowd: Is it worth it to get that blue?

(I'm leaning towards no, but Cyke is such a great char that I wanted to be sure.)

I'm leaning towards no. Do you have a roster you can link? I think it depends on that pretty heavily.

That's a good excuse to update my roster.... here you go.

https://mpq.gamependium.com/rosters/DaveR4470/

Akari

I love 4cyc, and as my highest 4*, I would actually consider this vault, but I just blew a bunch of HP rostering all the new characters and a new R&G dupe, so my HP is in short supply... the release schedule is just too fast.

snlf25

Dormammu wrote:

snlf25 wrote:

I absolutely 100% patently refuse to pay these kind of prices for vaults half full of 2* trash (with the exception of Peggy covers being at stake). I'm not going to spend HP on garbage and that's what a significant portion of these "prizes" are. You want me to spend - then make me feel like I'm getting value no matter what I pull from the vault! The bare minimum prizes in these should be 3*s or 2500 iso. And don't say that's outrageous - you are wrong and I don't want to hear it. This is a 5* game now. Period full stop end of story. Don't tell me about newbs either because you are still wrong because newbs can pull of dozens of 2* a week. They fall out of the friggen sky for Odin's sake and it's beyond time for them to be dialed back and for us to be given better value.

I agree with you on everything you said except one thing.

This is not a 5-star game. I've been here since the beginning and have yet to put a single point of iso into a 5-star. No one can tell me this is a 5-star game when I've been playing, having fun, and competing without 5-stars. This is only a 5-star game for a relative few, and many of us down here 'beneath' them don't envy the 5-star player's roster limitations or scaling problems.

That isn't what I was arguing, Dormammu, sorry I wasn't more clear. I soft cap all characters at level 280 so I avoid the very problems you mention and don't make 90% of my roster irrelevant. What I'm driving at is that the game has moved beyond 2*s regardless of what you or I chose to do with our rosters, we have a 5* tier that is so many orders of magnitude more valuable than the 2*s and yet they are still given excessively as "rewards". While the game has moved on, clearly and decisively, we are still stuck with rewards that are much more appropriate for the game as it stood 2 1/2 years ago. It is seriously insulting to see this kind of vault, with this kind of price tag where 11 of 20 prizes are virtually worthless and 3 of the remaining 9 are likely to yield worthless prizes as well. Throw in the fact that in no way shape or form is it worth it to trade 200HP for 1000iso and you have a vault where 15 of 20 prizes are rubbish. Complete rubbish. In a game where power creep has moved all the way into a 5th tier these prizes are no longer any where near appropriate for this kind of cost.

1 4*
9 3*
2 25,000 iso
3 10,000 iso
5 2,500 iso

That structure is much more appropriate. And for those who want to argue it's too much - in what world?! There are 42 3*s, each needing 113 covers to max out for a total of 4,746 covers and a total of 5,036,598 iso to finish. And that's just the third tier! We all know it gets much more expensive in 4* and 5* land. Break free with some freaking value already, devs!

Copps

Well my last two event vaults didn't have me buying daily deals so I was up to 6500 hp. I figured the champ level was worth it since I had a pretty good chance to get it for 2k or less and all the two star covers were champ levels. Got him on first hit and four two stars.

Stax the Foyer

GuntherBlobel wrote:

I think everyone is misunderstanding the point of these vaults. It's not about the 4* cover.

The limited vaults are a new kind of behavioral psychology study that lets the participants fund the research! In a few months we'll finally know the answer to certain burning questions concerning what is it to be human. Like, "Do people feel compelled to buy things in groups of 5, or maybe 20?" "What if 10 is an option?" "What if it isn't?"

I'm on the edge of my seat --- just dying to know.

I'll take 10 of those studies!

broll

snlf25 wrote:

Dormammu wrote:

snlf25 wrote:

I absolutely 100% patently refuse to pay these kind of prices for vaults half full of 2* trash (with the exception of Peggy covers being at stake). I'm not going to spend HP on garbage and that's what a significant portion of these "prizes" are. You want me to spend - then make me feel like I'm getting value no matter what I pull from the vault! The bare minimum prizes in these should be 3*s or 2500 iso. And don't say that's outrageous - you are wrong and I don't want to hear it. This is a 5* game now. Period full stop end of story. Don't tell me about newbs either because you are still wrong because newbs can pull of dozens of 2* a week. They fall out of the friggen sky for Odin's sake and it's beyond time for them to be dialed back and for us to be given better value.

I agree with you on everything you said except one thing.

This is not a 5-star game. I've been here since the beginning and have yet to put a single point of iso into a 5-star. No one can tell me this is a 5-star game when I've been playing, having fun, and competing without 5-stars. This is only a 5-star game for a relative few, and many of us down here 'beneath' them don't envy the 5-star player's roster limitations or scaling problems.

That isn't what I was arguing, Dormammu, sorry I wasn't more clear. I soft cap all characters at level 280 so I avoid the very problems you mention and don't make 90% of my roster irrelevant. What I'm driving at is that the game has moved beyond 2*s

I disagree with this. The game hasn't moved beyond 2*s, 2* have evolved into being a more of a currency than a character. Most people that are at least half way into 3* land are probably farming 2* because it's a good value when all is said and done. 2* still provide value, the value has just changed.

Now I'm not saying I'm thrilled with the amount of 2* in the vault, there are too many, but I wouldn't want to see them 100% removed.

Stax the Foyer

DaveR4470 wrote:

Gonna crowdsource this:

My Cyke is at 5-4-1. I use him a lot, but his blue is.... yeah.

I can use the 3 3* covers in my vault (Witch, Blade, Panther) for champing.

I've got enough to buy out the vault and still have a couple thousand HP left.

I ask the crowd: Is it worth it to get that blue?

(I'm leaning towards no, but Cyke is such a great char that I wanted to be sure.)

I think it's worth it. Not for the change from 1 -> 2 covers. It won't impact you immediately.

But, you're going to need at least 2 more blue covers, at minimum, if you want to champion him. (And he's well worth championing, in my opinion) This significantly reduces the risk of wasted covers prior to championing.

Especially when you consider that his last PvP progression reward was Blue, so it'll be a while before that lower-hanging fruit comes around.

When the cover is (1) the lowest covered color on a character with a very imbalanced distribution, and (2) a character that you're probably interested in championing, I think the vault is worth it if you have the HP to spare.

smkspy

broll wrote:

snlf25 wrote:

Dormammu wrote:

snlf25 wrote:

I absolutely 100% patently refuse to pay these kind of prices for vaults half full of 2* trash (with the exception of Peggy covers being at stake). I'm not going to spend HP on garbage and that's what a significant portion of these "prizes" are. You want me to spend - then make me feel like I'm getting value no matter what I pull from the vault! The bare minimum prizes in these should be 3*s or 2500 iso. And don't say that's outrageous - you are wrong and I don't want to hear it. This is a 5* game now. Period full stop end of story. Don't tell me about newbs either because you are still wrong because newbs can pull of dozens of 2* a week. They fall out of the friggen sky for Odin's sake and it's beyond time for them to be dialed back and for us to be given better value.

I agree with you on everything you said except one thing.

This is not a 5-star game. I've been here since the beginning and have yet to put a single point of iso into a 5-star. No one can tell me this is a 5-star game when I've been playing, having fun, and competing without 5-stars. This is only a 5-star game for a relative few, and many of us down here 'beneath' them don't envy the 5-star player's roster limitations or scaling problems.

That isn't what I was arguing, Dormammu, sorry I wasn't more clear. I soft cap all characters at level 280 so I avoid the very problems you mention and don't make 90% of my roster irrelevant. What I'm driving at is that the game has moved beyond 2*s

I disagree with this. The game hasn't moved beyond 2*s, 2* have evolved into being a more of a currency than a character. Most people that are at least half way into 3* land are probably farming 2* because it's a good value when all is said and done. 2* still provide value, the value has just changed.

Now I'm not saying I'm thrilled with the amount of 2* in the vault, there are too many, but I wouldn't want to see them 100% removed.

Eh, that's alot of conjure about 2 stars and their worth now though. While I don't disagree that they aren't a form of currency to many, I don't think they are the massive farming resource we on the forums like to say they are. I've said this many times before, but just having them all as elite covers in these vaults would be so much better and appealing. At the very least, there would potential for them to be something better than a straight up 2 star.