Pushing iso sales on the level up screen [A Conversation]

Ducky

I talked to a dev on Discord yesterday regarding the negative feedback on the new implementation of the level button and he agreed that the new layout was confusing. He said he'd submit it to feedback with the other devs.

Last time I brought up something like this was Carnage still activating after every ability being fired and it was fixed in the next hotfix, so I am hoping that a similar speedy resolution will be found with the level up button fiasco.

That being said, I still find it disheartening that it was rolled out the way it was without any foresight that it was going to be met with as little fanfare as it has. Any time you take away information from a player and put a price tag in its place, it's not going to produce good results.

Felonius

Brigby wrote:

Hey everyone. I just contacted the development team this morning to start up a conversation regarding the 'Max Level' button you all have been giving feedback on.
I'll be sure to follow up with any official news or updates when I get them.

Thank you Brigby.

I'd like to add my name to the list of players that do not like the new "improvements" to the "Max Level" button.

I do like the quicker-level-up that now allows me to just hold it down while I progress up and up through each level. That is a great new feature that will always be useful for the times I do not want to spend all my ISO and just want to partially level a given character.

That being said, what this game really needs, and has been requested at least as long as I've been playing (Day 860ish, here), is a true Max Level button that displays the highest level possible with the ISO I currently have (or the ISO price if my bank exceeds that which is required to cap the current toon), and when pressed automatically jumps me to that level.

In my opinion, if such a button existed, then also having a "Purchase ISO" button there, would be totally fine, convenient, and lovely. Possibly have the button similar to the old Max Level that took my existing ISO, and more clearly displayed the level I could achieve if I also made an ISO purchase (and then let me make the purchase/jump to that level in one press).


Now, that being said... The fact that if I spend $100 cash money I can't max a single , much less a or is simply ridiculous, and the fact that the new button misleads players into thinking making that ISO purchase will max their character, and it doesn't, often, not even close to doing so... That's just wrong. Really D3/Demiurge should be ashamed of themselves. I'm all for capitalism and paying to play/supporting a game, but come on...

Anyway, thanks for listening and taking this to Dev for us.

Brigby

Hey everyone. Just wanted to follow up with an update on what the development team said during our discussion:

We have heard the feedback about the changes to the "Level Jump" button and understand your concerns. We will be discussing what can be done in the coming days. We appreciate all the feedback we have received thus far.

Thanks for being patient everyone!

fanghoul

Brigby wrote:

Hey everyone. I just contacted the development team this morning to start up a conversation regarding the 'Max Level' button you all have been giving feedback on.
I'll be sure to follow up with any official news or updates when I get them.

Thanks, Brigby. Comments like this really help make us feel like we're being heard

Edit:
Also the post that ended up being right above this one

Vhailorx

Brigby wrote:

Hey everyone. Just wanted to follow up with an update on what the development team said during our discussion:

We have heard the feedback about the changes to the "Level Jump" button and understand your concerns. We will be discussing what can be done in the coming days. We appreciate all the feedback we have received thus far.

Thanks for being patient everyone!

Again, thanks for the update.

Even if nothing ultimately comes of this and we are stuck with the horrible new buy iso button, I would still say that this has been a successful example of constructive dialogue between players, pubs, and devs (though to be fair I would probably still grump about the outcome!). Assuming we get a final response from demi, up or down, in the near future, this is how the feedback/communication loop should work.

All that said: I really hope demi listens and changes it. It's horrible!

DeNappa

I think you should take a step back, look at it again. What are the requirements here? In my opinion:

• Add 1 level
• Raise level until current cap is reached
• Pump all remaining ISO into character
• Promote ISO sales (I know this is a dev requirement, but it seems vitally important )
• Display info about ISO needed for current next and current cap

The 'Add 1 level' button is fine as it is now, although I don't see any reason why the 'press and hold to fill up the bar'-mechanic is still in place (imo, it's an unnecessary legacy from before; ditch it!).

The other buttons can easily be combined into one, because they're both bulk operations:

• If you have enough ISO to reach CAP, just display 'Level (CAP): xxx ISO-8'
• If you don't have enough ISO to reach CAP, just display 'Level (max with current ISO): xxx ISO-8'.
• If you don't have enough ISO to reach CAP, and also lack the amount for even 1 level (this will be the case after leveling with the method mentioned in the previous bullet point), just transform the whole 2nd button into an ISO buy button, with the largest 'make sense' amount (the way it is calculated now, probably).

Simple, not confusing, and still giving incentive to buy that horribly overpriced ISO.

jackstar0

fmftint wrote:

This needs to go the way of the sparkly VICTORY banner

I miss the sparkles.

Matt Murdock

Thanks, Brigby. Appreciate the communication. Let me just summarize what I see as the general sentiment here, for the sake of simplicity.

I don't think any of us think this is game-breaking. It's just frustrating that the devs took the time to take something that was already broken, make it worse, and then slap a ridiculous price tag on it. Before, the level jump button was very unclear, but at least it gave you information on how much ISO was needed to get to a particular level. That might not have been the max level, but it was something. Now we are left in the dark, and instead offered a purchase which is considered by 99% of players to be ridiculous. Heck, even the whales who are desperate enough to buy it acknowledge that the pricing is ridiculous. They just don't care.

Since we are on the topic, these are my suggestions, which I think most players will agree with:

-Max Level Button: We need to see how much ISO is required to max level. Have a max level button which tells you the amount, regardless of how much ISO you have. Then when you click it, it should prompt you to confirm if you have enough ISO. If you don't, it should tell you how many purchases you will need to make and prompt you to purchase. This will allow the devs to still promote ISO sales (I won't touch on ridiculous pricing as it's all been said and that's a separate topic, although it is a contributor to the frustration over this issue).
-Single Level Button: Remove the leveling progress bar. Make it a one tap, one level button. Before it was too slow and took forever. Now it's too fast and you can miss the mark you're shooting for. If you don't have enough ISO for a single level, that button can also prompt for a purchase.
-Level Jump Button: Add a third button which levels them to the highest level possible using your current stash, telling you what level that will be. A little more in depth, but I think the ideal solution would be for this button to pull up a slider bar or something like that, where you can quickly select an amount of levels to add up to the maximum your current ISO stash will allow. Alternatively, this feature could be used to replace the Max Level Button if it would tell you the total ISO cost as you drag up to the max level. Then you would just have to take note of how much ISO you have before using this if you want to level as far as possible without making a purchase. If you drag to a level which your current ISO stash does not support, it would prompt you to make a purchase.

The combination of these three buttons will allow us to
1) more quickly and accurately bring a character to a given level
2) see how far our current stash will get us, and get there quickly if desired
3) see how much will be needed in total, and get there quickly if desired, including making a purchase if necessary

I'm fairly sure this is all anyone wants out of the leveling system. Clear, concise, gives you an idea of where you stand or how much iso you need to save, allows you to more quickly jump levels, and gives the devs an opportunity to push ISO sales without being obnoxious. Feel free to suggest alternatives if you don't agree, but after thinking about it I feel the above changes would be a significant quality of life improvement.

Mitchjewitz

Again I agree that it isn't a better improvement but cosmetically it looks better.
Those that are complaining that it is misleading to get a character maxed: the button doesn't say max level.
If you are a vet you should know how much iso it is to max a character or know where to find the answer (the forums is one place).
If you are new, this is a freemium game and should expect incentives and advertisements to buy in game currency to get ahead.

CNash

Dartmaster01 wrote:

This was posted on the R115 thread somewhere, so I figured I'd post it here also

Bookmark this link until they fix it https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wuQKBLUTMFQrxVAtLm9nxA6EBc7T42b2AUMqgZQKoeE/pubhtml#

That's an eye-opener. I had no idea that level 210 is nowhere near the halfway point for ISO expenditure on a 4*. The exponential increase in cost really messes with your perception of the total cost.

Figure15

thisone wrote:

Won't be long before we get sponsored new characters at this rate.

Baby Groot, brought to you by Johnson's no more tears.

But but the tears won't stop flowing...

whycantwesyncpc

fmftint wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

I updated and it's definitely worse for me and most of us on the forums as we already knew that it was telling us the cost to level with a $100 purchase, but would also give some information on what level that would take us to.

For most of the rest of the playerbase that don't get it, now it at least communicates to them that they will need to spend money to max a characters. It's still terrible for them in that it doesn't give an accurate description of the ISO/cost to max. If you need more than $50 worth of ISO it tells you that you need $100 when $52 might be enough.

Even worse if you need $300 to max, it implies you only need $100

No, worse is when the button tells you that you need $100 when you are actually only a few 100 iso short of being to max a character. Sold a cover for a character I probably could have champed because of this. Three cheers for greed!

AtlasAxe

Vhailorx wrote:

The max level button should always tell you the full cost of maxing a character. And if a current iso stockpile + a $100 purchase isnt enough, then demi/d3 should probably tke a closer look at their iso economy.

This. ISO pricing is ridiculous, and the fact that the change removed information and actually misleads is beyond the pale.

Here's an economics hint for Demi/D3: if you aren't selling enough of something, your prices are wrong for the market you're in. Messing with the interface to try to sell more isn't going to do it. I highly suspect you'd make a lot more money on $100 sales if the ISO gained would level a 4*. You'd probably make a lot more if it would even level a 3*.

As this game moves towards obsolescence, you might find that lowering prices keeps interest going and people buying.

Vhailorx

Just wanted to add one more specific point regarding the implementation on Android (and maybe iOS too?):

Assume you have 100k iso in the bank, and a 13/13 4* @ level 70 that you want to champ. the total cost of leveling that character to 270 is about 360k iso. So purchasing the missing iso outright would require about 260k iso, or 3 motherlode purchases at 78k each, and a smaller purchase on top!

the new max level button will display "78,000" on the top row, with the local price of a motherlode on the bottom row ($99.99 for me).

BUT, if you click on that button, you get a splash screen that says:

"You need more Iso-8. Buy the missing Iso-8?"

Below the text is a store icon showing a single motherlode purchase. If you click on that you are prompted to complete the purchase via google's play infrastructure.

Now, nothing in the game expressly says that a single motherlode purchase will be enough to max your character. But it does just about everything short of that; the language and graphics very strongly imply that a motherlode purchase is enough. Demi/d3, I am loathe to assume malice or bad faith, but this is borderline predatory. Freemium models have always been built on the backs of impulse purchases. But providing incomplete, or even somewhat inaccurate information for the apparent purpose of increasing the likelihood of an impulse purchase is, in my opinion, an unacceptable business practice.

Starshatter

This change makes me want to play less. Almost every time there is a new "rate mpq" prompt my score goes down because of things like this.

monsieurmojo

CNash wrote:

Dartmaster01 wrote:

This was posted on the R115 thread somewhere, so I figured I'd post it here also

Bookmark this link until they fix it https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wuQKBLUTMFQrxVAtLm9nxA6EBc7T42b2AUMqgZQKoeE/pubhtml#

That's an eye-opener. I had no idea that level 210 is nowhere near the halfway point for ISO expenditure on a 4*. The exponential increase in cost really messes with your perception of the total cost.

In terms of ISO expenditure (champion fee included), level 222 is the halfway point. About 189k in either direction.

El Satanno

I don't like this change for this reason:

Vhailorx wrote:

Just wanted to add one more specific point regarding the implementation on Android (and maybe iOS too?):

Assume you have 100k iso in the bank, and a 13/13 4* @ level 70 that you want to champ. the total cost of leveling that character to 270 is about 360k iso. So purchasing the missing iso outright would require about 260k iso, or 3 motherlode purchases at 78k each, and a smaller purchase on top!

the new max level button will display "78,000" on the top row, with the local price of a motherlode on the bottom row ($99.99 for me).

BUT, if you click on that button, you get a splash screen that says:

"You need more Iso-8. Buy the missing Iso-8?"

Below the text is a store icon showing a single motherlode purchase. If you click on that you are prompted to complete the purchase via google's play infrastructure.

Now, nothing in the game expressly says that a single motherlode purchase will be enough to max your character. But it does just about everything short of that; the language and graphics very strongly imply that a motherlode purchase is enough. Demi/d3, I am loathe to assume malice or bad faith, but this is borderline predatory. Freemium models have always been built on the backs of impulse purchases. But providing incomplete, or even somewhat inaccurate information for the apparent purpose of increasing the likelihood of an impulse purchase is, in my opinion, an unacceptable business practice.

Here's an easy solution that will make all players feel better about it: Somewhere on the level up screen, all you need is a little sign that says "You need: XXXX Iso." That's all. Make it change based on how much you have. That's not hard, right? Now, whether or not that might discourage buying because even 3* characters can't be maxed with a single, measly Stark Salary is something I'll not get into here...

Pogo

Add me to the tally for "remove the XP meter and just have a +1 level button and a current eligible max button"

Mechahamster

I wonder how the initial meeting about this went.

Sales boss: We're hardly selling any ISO, any ideas for that?
Dev 1: Maybe the price is too high and we need to readjust the numbers to make it more worthwile for players?
Boss: No, you're fired. Next.
Dev 2: Maybe make a vague yet obtrusive button pushing ISO sales, and have it replace a strategically important part of the UI?
Boss: Brilliant. Strangled kittens for all!