*** Black Widow (Grey Suit) ***

Phaserhawk

Highdark wrote:

I have never used grey suit, but over time i have actually gotten quite the collection of her covers. She 1/5/3 atm still sitting at level 15. I am curious(since i never used her) what makes her red so terrible. I mean i get the high cost part, and also understand that her green and purple are amazing. But purely looking at the red skill(since thats the one i happened to get maxed) how bad is it?

Pure and simple, high AP costs and low hit points. At least IM40 has high hp, or Psylocke has low AP costs, while BWGS can blow anyone up with her sniper rifle, she's almost never going to cast it. Any build is fine on her as long as you have 5 in purple.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Highdark wrote:

I have never used grey suit, but over time i have actually gotten quite the collection of her covers. She 1/5/3 atm still sitting at level 15. I am curious(since i never used her) what makes her red so terrible. I mean i get the high cost part, and also understand that her green and purple are amazing. But purely looking at the red skill(since thats the one i happened to get maxed) how bad is it?

Pure and simple, high AP costs and low hit points. At least IM40 has high hp, or Psylocke has low AP costs, while BWGS can blow anyone up with her sniper rifle, she's almost never going to cast it. Any build is fine on her as long as you have 5 in purple.

Green. 5 in green.

Anyway, to add insult to injury, BP is as good at dishing out damage as GSBW, with the nice addition of a hefty sum of hitpoints.

Phaserhawk

Kappei wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Highdark wrote:

I have never used grey suit, but over time i have actually gotten quite the collection of her covers. She 1/5/3 atm still sitting at level 15. I am curious(since i never used her) what makes her red so terrible. I mean i get the high cost part, and also understand that her green and purple are amazing. But purely looking at the red skill(since thats the one i happened to get maxed) how bad is it?

Pure and simple, high AP costs and low hit points. At least IM40 has high hp, or Psylocke has low AP costs, while BWGS can blow anyone up with her sniper rifle, she's almost never going to cast it. Any build is fine on her as long as you have 5 in purple.

Green. 5 in green.

Anyway, to add insult to injury, BP is as good at dishing out damage as GSBW, with the nice addition of a hefty sum of hitpoints.

I agree 5 in green is best choice, but being realistic, you are never going to cast her green or red because you are 99% of the time going to have someone better doing it for you, which is why purple is really her only decent skill, and if my choice was to use the green from her purple and cast Sniper Rifle or Call of the Storm, I'm going with Call of the Storm. Which is why any combination is fine as long as you have 5 in purple, because you are never going to cast those other skills.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

I agree 5 in green is best choice, but being realistic, you are never going to cast her green or red because you are 99% of the time going to have someone better doing it for you, which is why purple is really her only decent skill, and if my choice was to use the green from her purple and cast Sniper Rifle or Call of the Storm, I'm going with Call of the Storm. Which is why any combination is fine as long as you have 5 in purple, because you are never going to cast those other skills.

But if you're using GSBW just for her purple, why bring her at all? There are better purple powers that can be used instead, I don't think you want to bring her just to be a green battery for Thor's Call the storm...

NorthernPolarity

Kappei wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I agree 5 in green is best choice, but being realistic, you are never going to cast her green or red because you are 99% of the time going to have someone better doing it for you, which is why purple is really her only decent skill, and if my choice was to use the green from her purple and cast Sniper Rifle or Call of the Storm, I'm going with Call of the Storm. Which is why any combination is fine as long as you have 5 in purple, because you are never going to cast those other skills.

But if you're using GSBW just for her purple, why bring her at all? There are better purple powers that can be used instead, I don't think you want to bring her just to be a green battery for Thor's Call the storm...

Being a thor green battery is probably enough utility to make her viable actually. In a way, using her purple is like using a call the storm, so that ability essentially reads 9 purple ap: cast call the storm, which is pretty good if you ask me. And there are barely any good purples in 3* land: you have c. Mags and thats really about it. Loki/daredevil are bad, and obe is really squishy so they dont really bring a solid purple.

Phaserhawk

Kappei wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I agree 5 in green is best choice, but being realistic, you are never going to cast her green or red because you are 99% of the time going to have someone better doing it for you, which is why purple is really her only decent skill, and if my choice was to use the green from her purple and cast Sniper Rifle or Call of the Storm, I'm going with Call of the Storm. Which is why any combination is fine as long as you have 5 in purple, because you are never going to cast those other skills.

But if you're using GSBW just for her purple, why bring her at all? There are better purple powers that can be used instead, I don't think you want to bring her just to be a green battery for Thor's Call the storm...

Well in case of the tourney, because I have to, but in all other instances, there is no reason. BWGS is very obsolete in terms of power and cost. I like the style, but she needs to have her AP costs severely reduced, I understand that her damage would also go down, but I say thats a fair trade because she just doesn't have the hp to really be useful.

NorthernPolarity

Phaserhawk wrote:

Kappei wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I agree 5 in green is best choice, but being realistic, you are never going to cast her green or red because you are 99% of the time going to have someone better doing it for you, which is why purple is really her only decent skill, and if my choice was to use the green from her purple and cast Sniper Rifle or Call of the Storm, I'm going with Call of the Storm. Which is why any combination is fine as long as you have 5 in purple, because you are never going to cast those other skills.

But if you're using GSBW just for her purple, why bring her at all? There are better purple powers that can be used instead, I don't think you want to bring her just to be a green battery for Thor's Call the storm...

Well in case of the tourney, because I have to, but in all other instances, there is no reason. BWGS is very obsolete in terms of power and cost. I like the style, but she needs to have her AP costs severely reduced, I understand that her damage would also go down, but I say thats a fair trade because she just doesn't have the hp to really be useful.

Not true: I think you underestimate the power of her skills as board control in PvE situations. Being terrible on defense in PvP which means that shes not as attractive as an investment target, but I wouldn't call her 100% obsoleted exactly since she fills a small niche as a green generator (through a useful purple, which is hard to find in 3* land) / general purpose board clearer.

Phaserhawk

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Kappei wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I agree 5 in green is best choice, but being realistic, you are never going to cast her green or red because you are 99% of the time going to have someone better doing it for you, which is why purple is really her only decent skill, and if my choice was to use the green from her purple and cast Sniper Rifle or Call of the Storm, I'm going with Call of the Storm. Which is why any combination is fine as long as you have 5 in purple, because you are never going to cast those other skills.

But if you're using GSBW just for her purple, why bring her at all? There are better purple powers that can be used instead, I don't think you want to bring her just to be a green battery for Thor's Call the storm...

Well in case of the tourney, because I have to, but in all other instances, there is no reason. BWGS is very obsolete in terms of power and cost. I like the style, but she needs to have her AP costs severely reduced, I understand that her damage would also go down, but I say thats a fair trade because she just doesn't have the hp to really be useful.

Not true: I think you underestimate the power of her skills as board control in PvE situations. Being terrible on defense in PvP which means that shes not as attractive as an investment target, but I wouldn't call her 100% obsoleted exactly since she fills a small niche as a green generator (through a useful purple, which is hard to find in 3* land) / general purpose board clearer.

Agreed, but I would much rather have LazyThor be my green tile generator, I erred when I said obsolete, but safe to say only niche as of now.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Kappei wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I agree 5 in green is best choice, but being realistic, you are never going to cast her green or red because you are 99% of the time going to have someone better doing it for you, which is why purple is really her only decent skill, and if my choice was to use the green from her purple and cast Sniper Rifle or Call of the Storm, I'm going with Call of the Storm. Which is why any combination is fine as long as you have 5 in purple, because you are never going to cast those other skills.

But if you're using GSBW just for her purple, why bring her at all? There are better purple powers that can be used instead, I don't think you want to bring her just to be a green battery for Thor's Call the storm...

Well in case of the tourney, because I have to, but in all other instances, there is no reason. BWGS is very obsolete in terms of power and cost. I like the style, but she needs to have her AP costs severely reduced, I understand that her damage would also go down, but I say thats a fair trade because she just doesn't have the hp to really be useful.

Not true: I think you underestimate the power of her skills as board control in PvE situations. Being terrible on defense in PvP which means that shes not as attractive as an investment target, but I wouldn't call her 100% obsoleted exactly since she fills a small niche as a green generator (through a useful purple, which is hard to find in 3* land) / general purpose board clearer.

Magneto is also better than her in terms of Board control/Ap Generator/purple nuke...of course he's on the funbalance queue but they are taking their sweet time.

GSBW is obsolete in my books and not worth the ISO investment.

Dormammu

I think calling GSBW 'obsolete' is a bit extreme. Are there better characters? Sure. But...

Her Sniper Rifle is awesome, and way better than Thor's green attack. My LazyThor is lvl 141 and he does a total of 7,710 damage if all three enemies take max damage from it. My GSBW is level 120 and already outclasses Thor with a total of 8,664 damage between all three enemies (before the tile destruction). Yes, GSBW's green costs 5 more AP than Thor's, but she doesn't need seven green matches to pull it off, she just needs 11 purple AP because placing 6 green tiles can easily net you between 2-3x that back when paired strategically next to green tiles on the board, giving you the AP you need for Sniper and also doing a tinykitty-ton of cascade damage.

She also has a unique color combination in Green/Red/Purple; in fact no other character carries green and purple together - her 2 strongest abilities. This makes her an ideal character to help fill out rainbows.

I get that she's not an A-teamer with her low health and a useless red ability, but I've gotten a lot of mileage out of my GSBW. She is not obsolete.

Unknown

Dormammu wrote:

I think calling GSBW 'obsolete' is a bit extreme. Are there better characters? Sure. But...

Her Sniper Rifle is awesome, and way better than Thor's green attack. My LazyThor is lvl 141 and he does a total of 7,710 damage if all three enemies take max damage from it. My GSBW is level 120 and already outclasses Thor with a total of 8,664 damage between all three enemies (before the tile destruction). Yes, GSBW's green costs 5 more AP than Thor's, but she doesn't need seven green matches to pull it off, she just needs 11 purple AP because placing 6 green tiles can easily net you between 2-3x that back when paired strategically next to green tiles on the board, giving you the AP you need for Sniper and also doing a tinykitty-ton of cascade damage.

She also has a unique color combination in Green/Red/Purple; in fact no other character carries green and purple together - her 2 strongest abilities. This makes her an ideal character to help fill out rainbows.

I get that she's not an A-teamer with her low health and a useless red ability, but I've gotten a lot of mileage out of my GSBW. She is not obsolete.

But as Phantron is always quick to point out, CoTS having more focused damage to one character actually makes it better despite doing a bit less total damage.

And you could say that Thor doesn't need seven green matches, he just needs 12 Yellow AP (which gives big damage and a big kitty of cascade damage)

Dormammu

gamar wrote:

And you could say that Thor doesn't need seven green matches, he just needs 12 Yellow AP (which gives big damage and a big kitty of cascade damage)

Thor's green placement is random, though; it can result in zero matches just as often as a cascade. Not that you don't make strong points, above. There's a reason my LazyThor is lvl 141 and GSBW is not. I'm simply saying she's not a rusted-out toaster of a relic. I like her.

NorthernPolarity

Dormammu wrote:

I think calling GSBW 'obsolete' is a bit extreme. Are there better characters? Sure. But...

Her Sniper Rifle is awesome, and way better than Thor's green attack. My LazyThor is lvl 141 and he does a total of 7,710 damage if all three enemies take max damage from it. My GSBW is level 120 and already outclasses Thor with a total of 8,664 damage between all three enemies (before the tile destruction). Yes, GSBW's green costs 5 more AP than Thor's, but she doesn't need seven green matches to pull it off, she just needs 11 purple AP because placing 6 green tiles can easily net you between 2-3x that back when paired strategically next to green tiles on the board, giving you the AP you need for Sniper and also doing a tinykitty-ton of cascade damage.

She also has a unique color combination in Green/Red/Purple; in fact no other character carries green and purple together - her 2 strongest abilities. This makes her an ideal character to help fill out rainbows.

I get that she's not an A-teamer with her low health and a useless red ability, but I've gotten a lot of mileage out of my GSBW. She is not obsolete.

LazyCap/Hood is an example of a competitive team that can only be rainbowfied by gsbw.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

But as Phantron is always quick to point out, CoTS having more focused damage to one character actually makes it better despite doing a bit less total damage.

And you could say that Thor doesn't need seven green matches, he just needs 12 Yellow AP (which gives big damage and a big kitty of cascade damage)

Widow's sniper rifle has focused damage also, you get a +1100 (maybe more with cascades) in damage from her crosshairs tile damage. Plus you can target it to break strike/defense/webbed tiles on the board.

So, a typical Widow sniper attack looks like 4100/3000/3000 for me when I attack with her. Even slightly more at maxed levels.

dingao666

why black/blue do more damage than Red/green ??????

Unknown

It's because she "hides" when making a match. She relies on others to gather enough green AP for her to sniper rifle them to death. Except for purple. she has HUGE purple damage.

Unknown

Saint Matthew wrote:

It's because she "hides" when making a match. She relies on others to gather enough green AP for her to sniper rifle them to death. Except for purple. she has HUGE purple damage.

I like it, she is a glass canon so she is allowed to hide while collecting ammo except for purple because it also contributes to her green ap.

dingao666

Saint Matthew wrote:

It's because she "hides" when making a match. She relies on others to gather enough green AP for her to sniper rifle them to death. Except for purple. she has HUGE purple damage.

tks
now i understand

Phaserhawk

he abilties are still too high costed. When Thor and BP can do as much damage as her for 5-7 AP less you have a problem. Helle even IM40 can pump out that damage for 20AP but at least he's got another 2200 hp to hide behind. There are some older characters in need of an AP cost fix

IM40
BWGS
Captain America yellow only
XForce Wolvie
The Hood yellow only

Aside from X-Force Wolvie their abilties are fine it's just they are a few too many AP

IM40 red I can live with the red cost, but it needs to drop the other AP drain
IM40 blue I know he is a battery, but at least make it 18, 1/2 of the blue he can get from recharge
BWGS-Green, this needs to be at least 2 less if not more
BWGS-Red, this needs to be about 4 less at the max
Cap Yellow, this should be at minimum 1 less, probably more like 3-4
XForce-Green needs to be 3-5 less
Xforce-Red if no damage boost then a lot less AP maybe to 10-12
The Hood-Yellow, if yellow does more dmg then the AP cost is fine, since it's failry powerful and you can get yellow without doing anything, but as is, it needs to be more of a 12 AP

Unknown

Gray Suit Black Widow (GSBW) has a red, a green and a pink power, so she should do more damage when matching red, green and pink. However, she does low damage on red, but high damage when matching blue tiles. This is obviously wrong, so:

Should it be red tiles instead, or should her pistol skill actually be blue? One wonders, since every other widow has blue and pink powers.