**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

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  • The problem is not the nerf, it is the level of the nerf. This is an ongoing problem that would be fixed with a beta group. Why not take XF down incrementally rather than with a nuclear nerf. You could have increased the AP cost for his powers by a bit, reduced his powers some (such as lowering green damage by a third and having him only steal 5AP for example). Then, if he is still overused, you do another gentle nerf. Eventually you come to a nice balanced character. Had they done that with sentry, people might still be using him.
  • Just a comment that came from left field while I read through this thread...

    IAH, I wouldn't care nearly as much about all the nerfing, buffing, berfing and nuffing if roster slots prices were not so cripplingly high.

    If I didn't have to constantly weigh the option of dumping semi-built 3* (and 4*) characters and could actually build a decent, varied roster without taking a second mortgage on my home, the devs could do just about anything they thought necessary to my characters...

    DBC
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Saw your point in the other thread, I responded there but forgot about the 290 characters, so my best case there isn't quite best case, but close enough. In any case, even if you shift to 70 per tile instead of 42, then you get:

    Level 4 Green: 1088 + (9x70) = 1718
    Level 5 Green: 1360 + (15x70) = 2410

    So to respect to 4/5/4, you lose 692 on green (average), gain 760 on yellow + 2k heal back up. Yellow still favored, but certainly a closer gap than before.

    The side question, however, isn't "how much AP will his green create?" The question is "how much more AP will green generate at 5 rather than 4?" I can't find any of the simulators this second, but my guess is you don't go from 0 generated (at 4 green) to 4 to 5. I'd guess you're talking an extra 1-1.5AP, somewhere in that range.

    To me, I think the extra heal provides more sustainability, especially if combined with someone like Kamala or Cage. I get your argument, but you haven't really dissuaded me from respec-ing
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Mawtful wrote:
    XF + Kamala against Green: use Stretchiness and select a colour which won't make any green matches then use SS.
    This sounds like a pretty weak plan. I'd much rather use her green and do 10k damage, and bring a different black user.
  • I completely support the x-force nerf, and agree with most of the OP. The only part I disagree with is near the end when he/she commented that nerfs shouldn't be unconditional, you should always get something in return. Isn't that exactly what they did? The damage improved on surgical strike and on recovery to help compensate for the loss of damage on x-force.

    A common complaint seems to be that 4*s should be super awesome, because otherwise why bother? I think the answer to that is obvious: because it's fun to collect rare or hard-to-get stuff. Personally, I'm slowing collecting covers for characters like Nick Fury, Elektra, and Star Lord (but not X-force), not because I expect them to be game changers one day, but just because it gives me something to work towards in a game that has no end.
  • rednailz
    rednailz Posts: 559
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    I completely support the x-force nerf, and agree with most of the OP. The only part I disagree with is near the end when he/she commented that nerfs shouldn't be unconditional, you should always get something in return. Isn't that exactly what they did? The damage improved on surgical strike and on recovery to help compensate for the loss of damage on x-force.

    A common complaint seems to be that 4*s should be super awesome, because otherwise why bother? I think the answer to that is obvious: because it's fun to collect rare or hard-to-get stuff. Personally, I'm slowing collecting covers for characters like Nick Fury, Elektra, and Star Lord (but not X-force), not because I expect them to be game changers one day, but just because it gives me something to work towards in a game that has no end.

    Well most people think that sinking over a million iso (or whatever it is) into a charecter there should be a bit of a benefit more than health. There's no point doing the extra work and dumping the extra iso in them if there are 3* that are better, and yes, 4* should be better than 3*, just like how 3* are better than 2* and 2* are better than 1*...why is it acceptible for the entire basis of the game to breakdown at the 4* level?
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Saw your point in the other thread, I responded there but forgot about the 290 characters, so my best case there isn't quite best case, but close enough. In any case, even if you shift to 70 per tile instead of 42, then you get:

    Level 4 Green: 1088 + (9x70) = 1718
    Level 5 Green: 1360 + (15x70) = 2410

    So to respect to 4/5/4, you lose 692 on green (average), gain 760 on yellow + 2k heal back up. Yellow still favored, but certainly a closer gap than before.

    The side question, however, isn't "how much AP will his green create?" The question is "how much more AP will green generate at 5 rather than 4?" I can't find any of the simulators this second, but my guess is you don't go from 0 generated (at 4 green) to 4 to 5. I'd guess you're talking an extra 1-1.5AP, somewhere in that range.

    To me, I think the extra heal provides more sustainability, especially if combined with someone like Kamala or Cage. I get your argument, but you haven't really dissuaded me from respec-ing

    I'm with you 1000%. Dmg isnt an issue, it would be the cascade and board destruction you are giving up with green, but it's a 67% increase in tiles destroyed so if you got 10 from level 5 you might get 4 with level 4, the question is this though. Does the 5x5 X-Pattern help increase cascades vs. 3 3x3? And how many times did those 3x3's overlap? I also will be respect to at least 4/5/4 and maybe after the dust settles and I like it I might try 3/5/5.
  • The main concern many of us have is the nerf of XF and PvE scaling.

    SS was helping a lot in very lethal situations...

    I never minded nerfs of Top Tier teams (I always hate them), but I'm always really concerned about PvE scaling.

    Kingpin is too slow, and not very efficient.
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,537 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I've posited that if they reduced the cost of X-Force to 7ap, the new version would be pretty balanced and, I think, still top tier.

    As it is... he still might be. I'm going to play with it to see.
  • My X-Force is 3/5/5 because thats how the covers arrived.
    With this damage boost on yellow, I may use his yellow like Daredevil's ambush (unless I'm about to die).

    Now thinking in a team composed by KK, Steve Rogers, X-Force.
    Black/Yellow (X-Force), Purple/Green (KK) and Blue/Red (Steve)
  • arktos1971 wrote:
    The main concern many of us have is the nerf of XF and PvE scaling.

    SS was helping a lot in very lethal situations...

    I never minded nerfs of Top Tier teams (I always hate them), but I'm always really concerned about PvE scaling.

    Kingpin is too slow, and not very efficient.

    I ran a lot of comination of straight up power teams in Thunderbolt Mountains without X Force since you can't use him in half of the node and it's reasonably successful even if a lot of it depended on Iron Fist. The extra HPs will help in terms of winning fights (but not necessarily sustaining) because currently a high level opponent can generally one shot your guys which leaves you without much options once they hit their moves. With more HP you'll be able to survive and while your opponent has more health too, being able to take say a 9K hit (fairly common on high level opponents) versus not is likely a bigger benefit than your enemy having another 10K HP. I'd expect overall scaling to go down a bit and certainly not go up even more to the point where they can one shot your characters with the health increase. I am concerned with what happens against the guys with level 100 rosters that presumably didn't depend on X Force very much, since they're basically unaffected by the change, as it's already uncomfortable enough even when X Force dominated. Given X Force totally outclasses anybody, the fact that PvE between those who have X Force and not can be sometimes close suggests scaling applies an incredible weight in the opposite direction.
  • DaveR4470
    DaveR4470 Posts: 931 Critical Contributor
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    I had made another post, but after seeing something else somewhere else, I'm just going to sit on it, because hopefully it won't be important anymore, but simply, I disagree with your assertion that the reputation system is there for a Facebook-esque "Like"/"Dislike" functionality, or it wouldn't have the additional functionality to hide posts.

    At the risk of incurring the unmitigated wrath of Jamie Madrox.... I agree with you, and actually think he's flat-out wrong. Why? Because (as you note) sufficient downvotes physically hide the post. That isn't consistent with an "opinion"-style up/downvote, as it (theoretically) leads to an echo chamber where the majority effectively silences any alternative opinions. It's a self-filtering system to keep spam/offensiveness off of threads. And as such, the original comment -- that downvotes should be reserved for patently offensive and trolling content, NOT for things you disagree with -- is, to me, the correct analysis.
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I think it would be a good idea to delay the Xforce changes till season XIII ends. It will give those that have him time to get the most out of him and then have a few off season events to restructure their rosters. No I don't have a usable Xforce so I don't have a stake in it
  • I do think while Green took a pretty sizable hit, the part that I don't see too many people pointing out is the Yellow became really nutter butters at 5 covers.

    9k damage for matching 1 yellow tile? If you can't do it in time, you gain 10k hp? And it costs single digits to trigger.

    There's nothing wrong with that at all. X-Force is just fine. He's not bonkers anymore but he's still great. Mine's leveled to 270, I'm not mad. He'll still get plenty of air time.
  • ShazamFTW wrote:
    I do think while Green took a pretty sizable hit, the part that I don't see too many people pointing out is the Yellow became really nutter butters at 5 covers.

    9k damage for matching 1 yellow tile? If you can't do it in time, you gain 10k hp? And it costs single digits to trigger.

    There's nothing wrong with that at all. X-Force is just fine. He's not bonkers anymore but he's still great. Mine's leveled to 270, I'm not mad. He'll still get plenty of air time.

    It's 9 tiles X 400 if I remember correctly, or 3600, which is not terrible but remember the cascade created gets credited to the enemy if they match it. That said, maybe it'd be a good idea to blow up your own Recovery if you've it at level 5 for 3600 + ~12 tile cascade (3 you matched + 9 it blows up).
  • dkffiv
    dkffiv Posts: 1,039 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Rafaelmsb wrote:
    My X-Force is 3/5/5 because thats how the covers arrived.
    With this damage boost on yellow, I may use his yellow like Daredevil's ambush (unless I'm about to die).

    Now thinking in a team composed by KK, Steve Rogers, X-Force.
    Black/Yellow (X-Force), Purple/Green (KK) and Blue/Red (Steve)

    A 5/5/3 Iron Fist would probably be better than Kamala and CMags to replace Cap Am
  • franckynight
    franckynight Posts: 582 Critical Contributor
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    To be honest i cant wait for nerfmaggedon.. Xf has been a crutch for too many weak rosters.. Finally we ll be able to build a team around the featured chars and not being forced to build around xf no matter what..
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    WolfmanX25 wrote:
    .

    Surgical Strike will still be a decent ability. I'd argue that the current SS is the single most powerful ability in the game. On an average board, you dealt over 4000 damage, gained 9 AP, drained up to 10AP from the enemy and you had a high chance of cascades. A single SS basically meant an automatic game-over, assuming you have a use for the collected AP. Note that I'm talking about PvP here, not the overscaled mess of PvE. The new SS loses all the AP generation and drain, but it's now a very solid nuke. Magneto's redflag.png is a good ability and new SS does more than twice the damage (admittedly for 3 more AP)


    but SS could be temperamental too, how many times have you been stuck with it because strongest color is purple or there are only a few of a certain color on the board? Yes X-force was the best, very powerful, but he did not break the game. If they had fixed some of the **** 4* we could have seen diversity that way instead of having nothing to aspire to get once you have a few good 3*s
  • famousfoxking
    famousfoxking Posts: 245 Tile Toppler
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    Hanzo0313 wrote:
    If a new character has been added to the game, and changes have been made to that character's abilities within 30 days of the character's initial release, we will be offering a full Hero Point and Iso refund for any covers that were purchased directly or gained through Comic Packs.

    Well ****. My bad. Sorry I misled you. I really didn't realize it was new characters only (because apparently I can't read).
  • Wonko33 wrote:
    but SS could be temperamental too, how many times have you been stuck with it because strongest color is purple or there are only a few of a certain color on the board?
    In those situations new SS is getting hefty buff. The second did happen but fairly rarely unless you tried to SS twice same colour in short time between.
This discussion has been closed.