**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

joecoolmd wrote:

I feel as though the game has become a 2* -> 4* -> 3* transition.

I've been thinking this for awhile, and finally decided that's the way I'd go these last couple of seasons. I've moved most of the 3*'s to 127, and have the opportunity to move about 6 or 7 different ones to 166 eventually. I've been saving up on ISO, and thought: why "waste" on 3* right now? I've randomly been lucky to be at 5/2/1 on X-force, bought one black cover start of last season, bought one more last week, moved X-force to 200 to pair with 127's (for now).

The roster slot situation has become unsustainable, may s well "waste" that HP on covers instead. In the threads where 2*'s are asking what next that has been my asuggestion - don't waste on 3*'s, save and build up your 4* roster to earn your 3* roster. The 3*'s simply don't compete anymore, why bother buying into them? My next debate isn't which 3* to try to obtain - it's how can I get more 4hor covers quickly, and which ones?

I've seen how slow this is though, and I see how folks would get frustrated and buy the HP to buy the covers outright rather than try the slow, slow build it takes to buy the covers one by one (or slowly earn them through seasons and very rare drops).

The game has become very slow because of all the new 3*. After over 7 months of play, you would think I would have one fully covered 3* that I didn't have to buy covers for but I'm still waiting. My XF is 1/2/3. I need 7 more covers. 17,500 HP is a lot to spend but I don't see another way. I wouldn't mind going the slow route but with all the new 3* and a minimum of 2 new ones a month, the pool is very diluted and transition has become painful.

Unknown

EpicBeastmode wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

joecoolmd wrote:

EpicBeastmode wrote:

I just dont understand the constant criticism of xforce. Hes a 4 star, he should be a beast. What do people want, another invis woman? Like others have stated before, nerf him and then ppl will just complain about 4hor or the next cover...the devs might as well just nerf everyone so they are all equal...what would be the point of rarity classes then? I dont care about possible solutions or what the devs need to do because nothing is broke. Everyone complains about invis woman yet also want to make xforce into that...tweaks?..basically some players want 4 stars to be fancier versions of 3 stars?

I had worked hard to try and max my sentry, he was very close and i was top25 always in pvp. He got nerfed, i saw all the xforces and new where the game was headed, i sold sentry for hp, i got refunded alliance spots and i bought 4 black xforce covers. Through some luck and placements i maxed out my green, i sold garbage covers which i never used and collected tons of iso to max him out. And this season i have been top 5 nearly every pvp event. I dont have 4thor. So maxing out xforce covers is doable without outright buying them, i have gotten 3 xtra black xforce covers from token pulls. So yes to the OP question, save hp, and just buy the covers.

The diversity isnt an xforce problem its a lack of 4 star prob. They have stated they will be releasing more, so dont worry the next "game breaking" cover might just be released soon and then people can call for a nerf of that cover because xforce will just be an after thought at that point.

I agree. I don't think characters should be nerved at all. For the record, I don't have XF. Devs should put enough thought into character development so they don't have to nerd anyone. If a hero is overpowered then we can all work hard to get him. Nerfing only frustrates everyone who already has the hero and everyone who is so close to getting him, e.g., Sentry, Mags, etc. The only post-release character change that is reasonable is buffing a hero the debs know they got wrong or a hero no one uses because he's so bad, e.g., Beast. If they hadn't nerved Sentry, Mags, and others, the game might still be enjoyable without XF.

I'm always surprised at how many people on the forums think that the developers should never nerf characters, and how incorrect that line of thinking is. The developers are people. People make mistakes, and sometimes cause characters to be overpowered. Look at literally every single game that exists right now and cares about balance: Dota2, League of Legends, Starcraft2, etc. You can't just buff underpowered characters and hope that it works out, because having extremely powerful characters prevents the game from being enjoyable because of how easy it is to win. The game devolves to turn 1 kills and who has, and can grind with those characters. Lets assume that the devs had a "no nerf" policy. Well, if that was true, then Ragnarok would be the best character in the game right now with 2 AP thunderclap.
A typical game in the rags era went something like this:
Turn 1 - Boosted red, thunderclap thunderclap thunderclap. Generate 19 green AP. Sniper rifle, game is over.

By saying "characters should never be nerfed", that means that in order for there to be even some semblance of balance, characters would have to be AS good or better than pre-nerf Ragnarok, which is completely idiotic. Could you imagine what modern characters would look like if this was true?
LazyThor - 6 AP thunder strike, 3 AP call the storm.
Blade - 1k damage strike tiles per turn off of thirst
XF - 12 black - automatically kill every single character on the opposing team. (this would be considered "underpowered" because it can't turn one kill)

Yes, it sucks that right now the PvP meta is very much a "XF / LadyThor or bust" situation, but never nerfing characters is NOT the solution.

Im not against nerfing, but i am against nerfing the top dog in the game just because they are the top dog. 4 stars are supposed to be the top dogs in the game. If they nerf xforce, who would logicallly be next...4hor...then whats the point of all of this competition to get these prized 4 stars that are just nerfed to 3 star status waiting to happen because the 2/3 star transitioners just dont find it fair/impossible/boring/etc. Sentry was a 3 star, who could defeat everything and everyone in a minute. If they hadnt nerfed sentry would anyone even notice xforce? Point is xforce wouldnt be top dog even with the same abilities, players would be calling for sentrys nerf, instead. It would never end.

Be careful what you wish for everyone, you are essentially hoping for the devs to devalue the very prizes you hope to achieve. It sure as heck wont stop with xforce. 4hor would be next. I understand the argument that the 4 stars are unobtainable by the general masses, change the reward structure, not the very cover people are trying to achieve.

That was my point exactly! Why do all this work for months to get the cover you want only to have the hero nerfed? I heard for months how awesome Sentry was. I wasn't bitter or envious. I figured my day would come and I just kept plugging away. Well, guess what? I now have 12 Sentry covers but he just sits on my roster unused because he's a shadow of his former self. All that anticipation of getting him was pointless. I'm not completely against nerfing. I just think in Sentry's case, they went too far. Decreasing damage, almost doubling the AP, and increasing the countdown for WR? That's a bit much.

I see Polarity's point. 2AP for Thunderclap sounds absurd (that was way before my time). A nerf should still allow a character to be fun to play with and not sitting on your roster collecting dust. Instead of swinging the pendulum all the way to the other side, they should stop somewhere in the middle. For example, for Sentry, maybe decrease damage and increase AP from 7 to 12 but reduce countdown to 1 or eliminate it altogether. That way you don't have 1 minute kills but he's not a complete waste of iso. Many players sold their Sentry after the nerf. That shouldn't happen.

Unknown

SnowcaTT wrote:

Why fight the flow. You get three X-forces from daily reward, three more if you were playing Seasons 4 - 6, probably a couple more if you started before they put fury in with extremely rare, random pulls. Level that much, save HP and buy more covers.

Season 4 was IW. Only Season 5 and 6 were XForce.

I was hoping that Season X would be the Green XForce to complete the cycle, but it was not to be.

Dauthi

I agree, he is broken. It wouldn't be so bad if he was good at one thing, or even a couple. He is literally good at everything though, every mode of play, and in most of these scenarios the best as well. His black makes every other black useless when paired with him, and for the most part his green is too. This eliminates 2 entire colors that you ever need to plan for your team.

I spent 5k HP 2 months ago fixing his black, and I wouldn't regret them fixing him at this point. I have gotten so much out of him in just a single month it would have been worth it. The main problem is they buffed him not too long ago, and there are a lot of other buffs they should be handling before looking into nerfing him.

He is burning me, and I am sure, lots of others out. I hope the nerf is sooner rather than later.

Unknown

It's not XF that is broken, it's MPQ!!!

I get matched up against nothing but XF teams once I hit 550 in PVP. That's barely even cracking T100 by the end of the events. I don't even have a maxed 3* yet.

This game is extremely fun, but total **** and we all know it. The devs obviously don't care as they do nothing to address the fundamental issues with the game.

Dauthi

EpicBeastmode wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

joecoolmd wrote:

EpicBeastmode wrote:

I just dont understand the constant criticism of xforce. Hes a 4 star, he should be a beast. What do people want, another invis woman? Like others have stated before, nerf him and then ppl will just complain about 4hor or the next cover...the devs might as well just nerf everyone so they are all equal...what would be the point of rarity classes then? I dont care about possible solutions or what the devs need to do because nothing is broke. Everyone complains about invis woman yet also want to make xforce into that...tweaks?..basically some players want 4 stars to be fancier versions of 3 stars?

I had worked hard to try and max my sentry, he was very close and i was top25 always in pvp. He got nerfed, i saw all the xforces and new where the game was headed, i sold sentry for hp, i got refunded alliance spots and i bought 4 black xforce covers. Through some luck and placements i maxed out my green, i sold garbage covers which i never used and collected tons of iso to max him out. And this season i have been top 5 nearly every pvp event. I dont have 4thor. So maxing out xforce covers is doable without outright buying them, i have gotten 3 xtra black xforce covers from token pulls. So yes to the OP question, save hp, and just buy the covers.

The diversity isnt an xforce problem its a lack of 4 star prob. They have stated they will be releasing more, so dont worry the next "game breaking" cover might just be released soon and then people can call for a nerf of that cover because xforce will just be an after thought at that point.

I agree. I don't think characters should be nerved at all. For the record, I don't have XF. Devs should put enough thought into character development so they don't have to nerd anyone. If a hero is overpowered then we can all work hard to get him. Nerfing only frustrates everyone who already has the hero and everyone who is so close to getting him, e.g., Sentry, Mags, etc. The only post-release character change that is reasonable is buffing a hero the debs know they got wrong or a hero no one uses because he's so bad, e.g., Beast. If they hadn't nerved Sentry, Mags, and others, the game might still be enjoyable without XF.

I'm always surprised at how many people on the forums think that the developers should never nerf characters, and how incorrect that line of thinking is. The developers are people. People make mistakes, and sometimes cause characters to be overpowered. Look at literally every single game that exists right now and cares about balance: Dota2, League of Legends, Starcraft2, etc. You can't just buff underpowered characters and hope that it works out, because having extremely powerful characters prevents the game from being enjoyable because of how easy it is to win. The game devolves to turn 1 kills and who has, and can grind with those characters. Lets assume that the devs had a "no nerf" policy. Well, if that was true, then Ragnarok would be the best character in the game right now with 2 AP thunderclap.
A typical game in the rags era went something like this:
Turn 1 - Boosted red, thunderclap thunderclap thunderclap. Generate 19 green AP. Sniper rifle, game is over.

By saying "characters should never be nerfed", that means that in order for there to be even some semblance of balance, characters would have to be AS good or better than pre-nerf Ragnarok, which is completely idiotic. Could you imagine what modern characters would look like if this was true?
LazyThor - 6 AP thunder strike, 3 AP call the storm.
Blade - 1k damage strike tiles per turn off of thirst
XF - 12 black - automatically kill every single character on the opposing team. (this would be considered "underpowered" because it can't turn one kill)

Yes, it sucks that right now the PvP meta is very much a "XF / LadyThor or bust" situation, but never nerfing characters is NOT the solution.

Im not against nerfing, but i am against nerfing the top dog in the game just because they are the top dog. 4 stars are supposed to be the top dogs in the game. If they nerf xforce, who would logicallly be next...4hor...then whats the point of all of this competition to get these prized 4 stars that are just nerfed to 3 star status waiting to happen because the 2/3 star transitioners just dont find it fair/impossible/boring/etc. Sentry was a 3 star, who could defeat everything and everyone in a minute. If they hadnt nerfed sentry would anyone even notice xforce? Point is xforce wouldnt be top dog even with the same abilities, players would be calling for sentrys nerf, instead. It would never end.

Be careful what you wish for everyone, you are essentially hoping for the devs to devalue the very prizes you hope to achieve. It sure as heck wont stop with xforce. 4hor would be next. I understand the argument that the 4 stars are unobtainable by the general masses, change the reward structure, not the very cover people are trying to achieve.

Yes everyone did know X-Force was very strong during Sentry's reign, the only reason he wasn't used is because hood empowered the speed in which Sentry destroyed teams. Everyone hopped on the X-Force train after Sentry went down immediately.

In any game you will have top tier characters (likely used), mid tier(usable), and bottom tier(unlikely to be used). This is typical since perfect balancing is impossible. The problem is when you get someone that is above top tier (always used) who makes gameplay stale for those who have them and are forced to use them every match, or someone under bottom tier (never used) who angers those who pull them in tokens and take up roster space.

4* Thor is by far more in line with other top tier characters like OBW or Hood who are undeniably strong and overshadow characters of their respective field. X-Force is so far above the rest he can be considered the new Sentry. An X-Force nerf will eliminate the final ridiculous OP character in the game. The only change you may see is Elektra or Fury actually being used.

Finally, 4*s don't need to be overpowered. They will always be the most valuable due to their level cap. Despite Elektra and Fury being mid tier characters, anyone would pass them to fight a 166, and anyone would use them instead of a 166. This of course is not the case with Invisible Woman, but that is because she is a character that is below bottom tier.

Dragon_Nexus

...but I really don't

Only thing that comes to mind is "4* PvP only bracket. Leave us 3*s alone"
But, really...that's kinda fascist ¬¬

I'm just a little frustrated at picking a PvP lottery. I like to try to strive for 700 points. 600 at least, but usually I need 705+ to reach 25th position by the end. Whether I do depends entirely on where the point level is for the X-force wall. In Captain Marvel it was about 600.

I managed to grind to 683, won a fight for 24 points...but had lost a fight worth 23 points when I got back to the page again. So I just shielded and gave up after spending 200 ISO on getting nothing but level 200+ X-forces coupled with either Thoress, Devil Dino, Level 166 Hood and the occasional Nick Fury and Lazy Thor.

I don't want to banish 4* users away, that's no kind of solution. I just wish I could be a little more competitive without havin to sink a ton of ISO into the 2/2/5 X-Force I have...only to lose anyway because he's 2/2/5 and probably **** myself for PvE later.

Unknown

You could always just kill the XForce teams. Rather than thinking of it as some unwinnable fight just compare it to fighting an over scaled ares in PvE whch ppl end up fighting and beating a lot. You need to deny 2 colours (green and black in XF case) and if you do that it's really not a big deal. This obviously goes better if you have a use for the colours you are denying.

A Patch + Hulk team can beat anything barring bad cascades (hulk needs 5 in anger) for example. There are actually quite a few pairings that can comfortably kill an XForce. After all, even a 270 XF has less health than a 166 Hulk and chewing through that health is easy enough.

Just be super sure not to let them get 11 black... an Xforce going off is a pain (mostly because of the cascade risk and cascades are the only way the AI gets wins really) BUT Surgical Strike is the ability that can literally win a match.

One final note. Consider hero placement carefully. If you manipulate where your heroes are placed you can at least make sure a SS doesn't get the AI any useful colours (always hits highest damage and if damage is even will go center>right>left in priority).

Phaserhawk

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

...but I really don't

Only thing that comes to mind is "4* PvP only bracket. Leave us 3*s alone"
But, really...that's kinda fascist ¬¬

I'm just a little frustrated at picking a PvP lottery. I like to try to strive for 700 points. 600 at least, but usually I need 705+ to reach 25th position by the end. Whether I do depends entirely on where the point level is for the X-force wall. In Captain Marvel it was about 600.

I managed to grind to 683, won a fight for 24 points...but had lost a fight worth 23 points when I got back to the page again. So I just shielded and gave up after spending 200 ISO on getting nothing but level 200+ X-forces coupled with either Thoress, Devil Dino, Level 166 Hood and the occasional Nick Fury and Lazy Thor.

I don't want to banish 4* users away, that's no kind of solution. I just wish I could be a little more competitive without havin to sink a ton of ISO into the 2/2/5 X-Force I have...only to lose anyway because he's 2/2/5 and probably **** myself for PvE later.

In short you want a better MMR

I have said that a players roster + levels should factor their baseline PvP ranking. So if someone has all the covers and all characters maxed, they will be ranked much higher than someone with all the covers but only 1/2 maxed.

rednailz

XFroce is actually a pretty big puppydog if you deny him green and black, and you may even kill him before he gets a black off if you aren't even denying him.

There's a long list of combos that will take him and another high level player down. Dude in my allaince was taking down xforce teams with a mix of 2* and 3* teams.

Phaserhawk

You can survive an X-Force using X-Force, but recovering from Surgical Strike not so much. Keep him away from black and you can handle him, just like you keep blue away from 4hor.

KrazyKeylime

Dragon_Nexus wrote:

...but I really don't

Only thing that comes to mind is "4* PvP only bracket. Leave us 3*s alone"
But, really...that's kinda fascist ¬¬

I'm just a little frustrated at picking a PvP lottery. I like to try to strive for 700 points. 600 at least, but usually I need 705+ to reach 25th position by the end. Whether I do depends entirely on where the point level is for the X-force wall. In Captain Marvel it was about 600.

I managed to grind to 683, won a fight for 24 points...but had lost a fight worth 23 points when I got back to the page again. So I just shielded and gave up after spending 200 ISO on getting nothing but level 200+ X-forces coupled with either Thoress, Devil Dino, Level 166 Hood and the occasional Nick Fury and Lazy Thor.

I don't want to banish 4* users away, that's no kind of solution. I just wish I could be a little more competitive without havin to sink a ton of ISO into the 2/2/5 X-Force I have...only to lose anyway because he's 2/2/5 and probably **** myself for PvE later.

it is the same for the 2 to 3 transitioners aswell but much more difficult. there are many post in the suggestions forums for tiers which might solve this issue if want to check them out.

KrazyKeylime

rednailz wrote:

XFroce is actually a pretty big puppydog if you deny him green and black, and you may even kill him before he gets a black off if you aren't even denying him.

There's a long list of combos that will take him and another high level player down. Dude in my allaince was taking down xforce teams with a mix of 2* and 3* teams.

i wonder how sustainable those 2* /3* combos if the 2* gets hit by pretty much any ability that's a health pack

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

You could always just kill the XForce teams. Rather than thinking of it as some unwinnable fight just compare it to fighting an over scaled ares in PvE whch ppl end up fighting and beating a lot. You need to deny 2 colours (green and black in XF case) and if you do that it's really not a big deal. This obviously goes better if you have a use for the colours you are denying.

A Patch + Hulk team can beat anything barring bad cascades (hulk needs 5 in anger) for example. There are actually quite a few pairings that can comfortably kill an XForce. After all, even a 270 XF has less health than a 166 Hulk and chewing through that health is easy enough.

Just be super sure not to let them get 11 black... an Xforce going off is a pain (mostly because of the cascade risk and cascades are the only way the AI gets wins really) BUT Surgical Strike is the ability that can literally win a match.

One final note. Consider hero placement carefully. If you manipulate where your heroes are placed you can at least make sure a SS doesn't get the AI any useful colours (always hits highest damage and if damage is even will go center>right>left in priority).

Killing 270 xforce/thor is very doable with a 120ish 3* team. BUT you need all 3 to do it. Having to put all of our limited resources into the FEW 3* we can actually cover, we simply cannot put 3 heroes together to take on xforce/thor/hood/etc. We are already severely disadvantaged but are having to go essentially 2 on 3 as the underdog.

It's ridiculous that in order to hit top 100 in pvp, 2--3 transitioners are having to battle 270 xforce/thor/hood from 400+ pts on.

rednailz

KrazyKeylime wrote:

rednailz wrote:

XFroce is actually a pretty big puppydog if you deny him green and black, and you may even kill him before he gets a black off if you aren't even denying him.

There's a long list of combos that will take him and another high level player down. Dude in my allaince was taking down xforce teams with a mix of 2* and 3* teams.

i wonder how sustainable those 2* /3* combos if the 2* gets hit by pretty much any ability that's a health pack

you go in boosted and deny green. he does it all the time. he takes on thoress xforce teams too. not 270 teams too often, but he's done it.

it's no sustainable by any means, just does it once in a while for kicks. Much like how I'll take down a monster team for kicks and points before final shield.

rednailz

Switchman wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

You could always just kill the XForce teams. Rather than thinking of it as some unwinnable fight just compare it to fighting an over scaled ares in PvE whch ppl end up fighting and beating a lot. You need to deny 2 colours (green and black in XF case) and if you do that it's really not a big deal. This obviously goes better if you have a use for the colours you are denying.

A Patch + Hulk team can beat anything barring bad cascades (hulk needs 5 in anger) for example. There are actually quite a few pairings that can comfortably kill an XForce. After all, even a 270 XF has less health than a 166 Hulk and chewing through that health is easy enough.

Just be super sure not to let them get 11 black... an Xforce going off is a pain (mostly because of the cascade risk and cascades are the only way the AI gets wins really) BUT Surgical Strike is the ability that can literally win a match.

One final note. Consider hero placement carefully. If you manipulate where your heroes are placed you can at least make sure a SS doesn't get the AI any useful colours (always hits highest damage and if damage is even will go center>right>left in priority).

Killing 270 xforce/thor is very doable with a 120ish 3* team. BUT you need all 3 to do it. Having to put all of our limited resources into the FEW 3* we can actually cover, we simply cannot put 3 heroes together to take on xforce/thor/hood/etc. We are already severely disadvantaged but are having to go essentially 2 on 3 as the underdog.

It's ridiculous that in order to hit top 100 in pvp, 2--3 transitioners are having to battle 270 xforce/thor/hood from 400+ pts on.

Something seems fishy if you are getting a 270 wall and only shooting for top 100. You may be in a rough shard or bracket, or have started too early/late. I never see a 270 or even 4* wall at 400 pts.

Unknown

boosted BP+patch or Hulk+patch will kill any pvp team, and fast enough to hop. Or lose horribly to a bad cascade, but hey. that's everyone

Unknown

It's not funny. But it is interesting.

Old gripe. 2*s against 3*'s. New Gripe. 3*'s against 4*'s.

I'll say it again. The probelm is not that 2*'s have to play 3*'s. The problem is that the reward structure does nothing to help 2*'s transition. Likewise, the problem is not that 3*'s ahve to play 4*'s. The problem is that the reward structure does not do much to help 3*'s transition.

It would help alleviate the problem if older 3*'s became the 2*'s with multiple cover levels like when multiple 2* covers use to be given. Newer 3*'s are given a little further down.

4* rewards need to be re-examined. For one, there used to only be 2, now there are 6 and growing. For another, people used to be able to get them because no one wanted them because they were just really work 1000 iso before xforce buff and the addition of new 4*'s. Moreover, the problem is exacerbated by people who do not need first that will block other people that need that cover from getting for no reason other than they are a nerfherder.

Maybe there should be a season tier above the current last HP progressive reward for seasons that is for a 4*. It's not the best, but at least there will be some sort of path aside from daily drops. This a tough one.

evil panda

my L270 XF featured teams lose with some frequency to Cstorm + Mmags 2* teams

Unknown

ark123 wrote:

boosted BP+patch or Hulk+patch will kill any pvp team, and fast enough to hop. Or lose horribly to a bad cascade, but hey. that's everyone

I like fighting the patch/Hulk teams i know Surgical Strike is going to steal green then unless they have a high lvl featured character. This is one advantage of a well leveled featured character - you can quite often stop XForce stealing Green.