A season after cupcakes were killed - yeah or nay?

GurlBYE

I don't know what middle tier is (i'm guessing 4 stars because 2's can't do pvp.)

It doesn't effect me because it shifted me to a cupcake, so going past 575 is a no no zone, like it's always been.

it's just really interesting to see higher level players with the best rosters in game saying they aren't having fun because earning the best rewards available is too easy.

The Bob The

GurlBYE wrote:

it's just really interesting to see higher level players with the best rosters in game saying they aren't having fun because earning the best rewards available is too easy.

Yep. I think this reality displays a fundamental misunderstanding by the complainers (not you, sir/madam) of what the baking system was. The main bakers were top-roster players who would be winning anyway. They would drive up their scores well beyond the point it would earn them anything in the name of fun. Not the "fun" of sniping either, which requires cutting others down; the fun of baking came from being rooted in strategy and community.

I'm truly sorry for those who felt shut out or ignored (by the way, I AM still talking about cupcakes rather than any other ... recent unpleasantness) because they never seemed to understand that they'd have been welcome to participate if they'd wanted. It was fun; I don't know anyone involved who wouldn't want to spread that around.

atomzed

The Bob The wrote:

I'm truly sorry for those who felt shut out or ignored (by the way, I AM still talking about cupcakes rather than any other ... recent unpleasantness) because they never seemed to understand that they'd have been welcome to participate if they'd wanted. It was fun; I don't know anyone involved who wouldn't want to spread that around.

well, there are some players who felt that cupcakes are against the spirit of typical competition. they see it as 'match fixing' or deliberately losing matches.

i doubt that their refusal to join is due to inability to participate in it.

Fightmastermpq

GurlBYE wrote:

it's just really interesting to see higher level players with the best rosters in game saying they aren't having fun because earning the best rewards available is too easy.

I don't think anyone is saying this? It's not fun because it is a monotonous grind. Just because most are able to do it on a regular basis doesn't mean it's easy.

BlackSheep101

aesthetocyst wrote:

BlackSheep101 wrote:

Wait, people actually hit fights worth less than 40 points? What slice is this?

Yep. A lot. Once you're strong enough, it's often the way to go.

Once you climb high enough, it's all you find anyway.

Once you're roster is really strong, you can grind single-digits fast enough to generate points faster than successful hits can take them away ... and also be buoyed by others who take a chance at your fat score.

Except the person I quoted was talking about hitting 27 point matches on the way to 900. I'm assuming he doesn't fall into the strong category, else he wouldn't be complaining about having a hard time getting to 900.

Spend the iso, skip till you find a 40+ to hit.

Ruinate

This entire post isn't directed at you. Just want to elaborate on why it's not fun.

GurlBYE wrote:

it's just really interesting to see higher level players with the best rosters in game saying they aren't having fun because earning the best rewards available is too easy.

It's always been easy for anyone who has a good roster and/or the power of friendship. Pvp is no longer fun because coordination is dead. There's no need to coordinate anything when most of the time, you can't even clear the queues you already have. Before you would catch 4 queues and plot with say 8 other people to unshield and generate 9 more queues that you gobble up on the fly. Everyone coming out 300-600 points ahead unscathed was fun. When a bake train halts because something goes wrong, changing plans midway to recover was fun. Even failing to recover was fun. All of that is gone now.

It's like going into a haunted forest with your friends, but now you do it alone. That's what it feels like to hop. It is dreadful and that's coming from someone who used to be addicted to hopping. As the event goes on it gets even worse. You are forced to reduce your already reduced matches. 2 matches per hop. 2 **** matches. It's like the Devs want you to play the game less and expect you to still pay. Many people's response to that is "lol, FU" as they now ride out their shield timer instead of burning through them to put them on cooldown.

So now you play alone and you play less which means there's less of a reason to mingle with your fellow adventurers which amounts to a lesser experience. Line is just depressing now anyway. Much of the "Q'd thank you" has been replaced with "I can't find it" and "Wow nice hop!" has completely been replaced with "I'm so sorry " There's more butt hurt feelings and feuds because hits hurt more.

All these bad side effects for what? To kill the point gap? Hi, it's still there loud and clear. To force us into hitting more A teams for the spirit of competition? Those same Oml/Phx A teams that we already beat 50 times on our initial climb? Those same A teams that we beat so many times that we can win using a stylus..... that's shoved up our A? Do you know what is a completely viable strategy for placement say if you're in 2nd, 6th, or 11th place? To not do a damn thing. Sit there and watch your rank go up as those above you have negative hops. That's some real competition right there. EXTREME.

SnowcaTT

I'm getting the same amount of points...but I'm placing (much) higher because 3* teams can't take on the grills and remove placement from me.

So -I- like it, but I can see how 3*/low 4* teams wouldn't.

But then...I didn't like it when they were placing above me but I couldn't Q them! I still say CC's were fine - the solution is WIDEN MMR.

dsds

I am not sure if everyone is doing the poll. But it seems that the people who are supporting cupcakes are not the majority even on this forum (which makes up a small minority of players). Can we lock this topic now? It's just a broken record. Everything that needed to be said is already said. We are just going in circles now.

Evilgenius_9

Not voting because I don't PVP enough to see the difference, but putting 10 cp at 575 was awesome! I think I hit it every event (w/o shields), including the ones I played with loaners. Finally something worthwhile and achievable for me in pvp!

boomshaka40

CC's helped me complete my 4* transition in rapid time. I also enjoyed baking at every opportunity that I had once I cleared 1k. It really became a game of how low you could bake without getting hit on your hop. Or, like Ruin said, how many cc's you could eat before shielding. It added an element to post-progression play for me that is now lost. For f2p guys like me, it really sped up the transition since I could often make 1k+ (and the 4* cover) before shielding.

I can't imagine how the 3-4 transition guys are going to be able to complete it at all given: 1) the abundance of 4s now making it hard to complete a specific character; and 2) the hordes of players sucking down every available 900+ pt team at all times of the day. For non-5 players, at least 4 shields are needed to reach max progression vs. 2 or so during the cc era.

In any event, it has led to a paradigm shift for non-5 players. PVP expectations should be set for placement, not progression. PVE expectations are reversed, shoot for progression, not placement. Once you can accept those shifts, your play experience will be enhanced.

babinro

Voted: Yeah, it's awesome! Pvp is real pvp now.

The poll operates in extremes and I get that but I'd say PvP is a little better with these changes. PvP is still far from perfect though as the problems extend beyond just cc exploitation. Lets face it, cc's aren't dead, they just aren't as much of a game changer now. Shards still use them.

Here's a few pvp changes I'd like to see in addition to what we have now.

1) More relaxed matchmaking system.
As a 5* player this issue is actually a LOT better than it was 6 months ago. Peoples rosters are getting better and more and more options are gradually appearing. Here's the thing though, it only really feels decent in a couple of shards and you still find yourself cycling through the same names repeatedly. If we had double or even triple the queue options we had now that would feel a lot better.

2) Enable rubber banding in point values relative to the shard leaders.
Pretty sure some people will hate this idea and that's fine. This is really just my opinion. Ever get to 1050 points and find yourself stuck with battles worth 10 points or less even after spending hundreds of ISO in skips? You check your leaderboards and you see people shielded above 2000. While that situation makes sense in terms of pvp mechanics it's never satisfying to the player.

I'd like to see the game add a positive weight on point worth relative to the leaders within that shard. So instead of those people being worth 7 points they might be worth 57 points. At 1800 the those rosters worth 7 points might only be worth 27 points against the shard leaders 2000 points.

fmftint

Option 1 is invalid because even with the change, pvp isn't REAL pvp

SpiderKev

Can't D3 just post the stats and tell us the definitive answer?

They had a contest last year during the anniversary where they showed us matches played during the season (viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34611&p=437043#p437043).

ZeroKarma

There have been some good points made in the posts previous, both yay and nay. I'm on the nay side. As I had thought would happen, much of the joy of PvP is now gone from the game. A point that was made by my buddy Rockett stands out for me. Our alliance finished top 10 this season. This would not be out of the ordinary since we are regularly T10, except that we all discussed taking a step back and many of us have. This is not a good thing for the game. We expected that some new faces would move up in the rankings and it didn't happen, indicating that the apathy is a bit more widespread.

Now, there are certainly positives in the new "system" for different tiers of player, but these seem less a result of cupcakes and more a result of change in progression targets, a lifting of the level at which you are visible to everyone, and generally people that play a lot getting better rosters. But the negatives in terms of community engagement and potentially a reduction in interest may outweigh this. Time will tell if this was just a bait and switch.

Also, I would be remiss to point out that I can do perfectly well in this system. I have multiple champed 5*'s and I am a medium-sized whale so I have an inherent advantage, plus I have less work to do to get a T5. Cupcakes were actually an overall negative for me placement and score-wise! It allowed people that coordinated or were engaged to compete with me, which leads to my final point.

If it wasn't clear before it is crystal clear now that money owns this game, 100%. This has always been true to some extent. In the old days, you could spend cash and max Sentry/Hood. You just needed the right six base covers and you were at the top of the meta. Then, you could spend a bit more cash to buy XF/Thora and you could run roughshod over the game. But 5*’s? Whoa. Whole different level. We’re not talking a couple of hundred dollars, we are talking thousands stacked on top of each other. And this ladies and gentlemen is why cupcakes no longer exist. Cupcakes are not gone as a nod to competition, they are gone to end competition at the highest level of this game. You can see it in a sudden shift in the end of the year standings. It is now quite difficult if not impossible for coordination, teamwork, and strategy to overcome money.

So, if you’re happy that cc’s are gone, more power to you. Just remember that it had nothing to do with promoting competition and definitely nothing to do with promoting fun.

Qubort

atomzed wrote:

Cupcakes makes it so easy such that a 3* team can get up to 1300.

quote]

I wouldn't say getting to 1300 was ever easy. You still had to time your hops perfectly and the name of the game is speed. So if you use a 3 star team others eat you alive that high and better do short hops. Grilling still occurs but less people can eat.

STERLING21JJ

i miss the coordination of ccs to climb, bake, and make hops. Was more enjoyable than it is now.

fanghoul

Eh, I don't know what to say about this. I've definitely not been able to hit the 3* cover as often after this change, and I certainly haven't hit the 4* cover. There just don't seem to be enough people with scores over 575 to move up any further than that.

This might be an artifact of the slice I'm in though, or something. I'm more a PvE player than a PvP one, so I haven't been doing any real work figuring out how I might be able to do better.

pelle2011_de

Hi dears,

I want to talk to this topic too.
I hate the death of cupcake. It's not cause points decreasing - i usually hit progression and get a good placement. It's just the loss of the social aspect of the game.

I know the game was and is intended to play alone. Best proof for that is the worst implemented and useless ingame chat. But this game evolved more then development expected. It developed a social aspect outside of the game through line.

OK.. we had this before CC appears in Season 21. But you had to deal with a smaller group at same level to generate points just for this group. After cupcakes came to life we found a way to play in bigger groups with different level roosters (new and old player) - anybody had a benefit from that. Bigger player put in a big effort to help weaker player to increase their score without loosing the lead. After cc died we getting back in old times. Stronger and weaker rooster getting divided again.

If cc never there alive we would not feel loss of this social playing aspect. That's that mostly hurt. The trill and fun of a cc world is just gone. Now we grind the pvp as we did years ago. I am not the guy who like pve. Spending a lot of time to make same matches over and over again just to grind points for some small rewards is just no fun for me. Since pvp is just a variation of pve I feel the loss of interest on this game.

So yes it's easier to get rewards since you get cp at lower stages and through SL. But with cutting social aspects the fun for a lot active player is gone or decreased.

Pelle2011
Alliance Pax Romana

GurlBYE

So the general sentiment is higher level players liked it because it felt more like controlled grinding.

the players who needed the rewards and were almost there, used CC's to get closer to proper rewards

players outside of cc's are still hating it because pvp is and has always been a grind, then being feasted on by the big guys.

Players who already had the strongest rosters somehow expected people with weaker rosters to overtake them in seasons (???)

Players who already knew money and roster spoke louder than strategy, had that reinforced.

Fightmastermpq

GurlBYE wrote:

Players who already had the strongest rosters somehow expected people with weaker rosters to overtake them in seasons (???)

That's what happened in previous seasons - by a lot. I knew weaker rosters were scoring higher than me each event, but I didn't expect to go from T150 to T50. With a little more effort, or moving to S4 and playing nice I could probably bump that to T25. IMO it really shows the extent to which players were using CCs to punch well above their weight.