Funbalancing Queue Update?

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DaveyPitch wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The whole 'my games with Spiderman are close even when I never lost any health' reminds me of the MMR argument about how MMR is giving opponents that are too tough but you still never lost a game against them for whatever reason.

If you usually walked out of a fight with 100% health, that fight is not really that tough.

You're right, sometimes the fights aren't that tough, but you can't deny that some times they are.

Wouldn't a simple solution be to scale your opponents based on the overall damage you took during the match, rather than how much health you left with? That would cater for everyone then. If you use boosts and Spidey to stunlock the opponents from move 1, you take no damage and you get high scaling. You took lots of damage and use Spidey to heal at the end, you get less scaling. That's a system I could get behind.

How are those two fights any different? You walked out of both with 100% of your health. All that'd do is encourage people to get hit on purpose and then heal up.

Why should the game make any conclusion other than 'fight was too easy' when you walk out of a fight taking no damage?

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

DaveyPitch wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The whole 'my games with Spiderman are close even when I never lost any health' reminds me of the MMR argument about how MMR is giving opponents that are too tough but you still never lost a game against them for whatever reason.

If you usually walked out of a fight with 100% health, that fight is not really that tough.

You're right, sometimes the fights aren't that tough, but you can't deny that some times they are.

Wouldn't a simple solution be to scale your opponents based on the overall damage you took during the match, rather than how much health you left with? That would cater for everyone then. If you use boosts and Spidey to stunlock the opponents from move 1, you take no damage and you get high scaling. You took lots of damage and use Spidey to heal at the end, you get less scaling. That's a system I could get behind.

How are those two fights any different? You walked out of both with 100% of your health. All that'd do is encourage people to get hit on purpose and then heal up.

Why should the game make any conclusion other than 'fight was too easy' when you walk out of a fight taking no damage?

Because to go back to everyone's favorite Magic: the Gathering analogies, how much life you have at the end of a game has approximately zero relevance in determining how close that game was?

Unknown

gamar wrote:

Because to go back to everyone's favorite Magic: the Gathering analogies, how much life you have at the end of a game has approximately zero relevance in determining how close that game was?

That's because you don't play your next match at whatever your current life is at MTG. If it did, it'd matter a lot whether you started the next game at 5 or 20 life.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

Phantron wrote:

DaveyPitch wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The whole 'my games with Spiderman are close even when I never lost any health' reminds me of the MMR argument about how MMR is giving opponents that are too tough but you still never lost a game against them for whatever reason.

If you usually walked out of a fight with 100% health, that fight is not really that tough.

You're right, sometimes the fights aren't that tough, but you can't deny that some times they are.

Wouldn't a simple solution be to scale your opponents based on the overall damage you took during the match, rather than how much health you left with? That would cater for everyone then. If you use boosts and Spidey to stunlock the opponents from move 1, you take no damage and you get high scaling. You took lots of damage and use Spidey to heal at the end, you get less scaling. That's a system I could get behind.

How are those two fights any different? You walked out of both with 100% of your health. All that'd do is encourage people to get hit on purpose and then heal up.

Why should the game make any conclusion other than 'fight was too easy' when you walk out of a fight taking no damage?

Because to go back to everyone's favorite Magic: the Gathering analogies, how much life you have at the end of a game has approximately zero relevance in determining how close that game was?

Sure, if you want to pretend that every fight exists in a vacuum. The devs don't. A single fight is one fight in the broader context of a large PVE event or multiple PVP battles. And in that respect, the only thing that matters is that you have full heath and can traipse into the next fight as if the first didn't even happen. You get all the benefits and none of the consequences from winning a fight whereas someone who used another set of characters did.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

How are those two fights any different? You walked out of both with 100% of your health. All that'd do is encourage people to get hit on purpose and then heal up.

Possibly, but if people are taking hits they're at least running the risk of a miracle cascade ruining their match by wiping someone out. You're at least encouraging people to not abuse the stun locks.

Why should the game make any conclusion other than 'fight was too easy' when you walk out of a fight taking no damage?

Simply because it's not always that simple. It's an assumption that can often be incorrect, and again, people will be punished for that with higher scaling.

I do get where you're coming from, but at the same time, D3 gave players a character that can stun and heal easily. They are then effectively punishing you for doing so. That is what strikes me as unfair. If they want us all to take damage, simply remove all healing abilities from the game. I've got no problems with that. Just stop punishing the players who use the tools that D3 themselves gave them.

Unknown

The intention of dev is fairly irrelevent because either they intended pre nerf Ragnarok to routinely put away a game by turn 2 after matching 3 red, or they had no idea what they were doing. Either way, the result is that pre nerf Ragnarok is horrendously imbalanced.

The PvE scaling is basically specifically set to slow Spiderman down. A dev mentioned they even look for cases like you go to prologue to heal up and you're not healing anybody in the level 100+ range with OBW in any reasonable time if you took significant damage. So whatever they originally intended with Spiderman, they sure also put a lot of mechanism to try to slow you down, which implies they almost certainly regret whatever the original intention is or we wouldn't have all these convoluted scaling designed to slow down Spiderman.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

Sure, if you want to pretend that every fight exists in a vacuum. The devs don't. A single fight is one fight in the broader context of a large PVE event or multiple PVP battles. And in that respect, the only thing that matters is that you have full heath and can traipse into the next fight as if the first didn't even happen. You get all the benefits and none of the consequences from winning a fight whereas someone who used another set of characters did.

The "consequence" of going to the prologue for a couple of minutes to fully heal? Seriously? Consequences? The whole argument that damage taken in a fight is a good way to determine if the fights should get harder is **** because of how easy it is to heal in the prologue. The only real consequence in a fight (once people have a healer, but since this discussion is about a 3* hero spiderman you'd assume we're talking about having OBW or spidey) is if anyone is downed. If you want to genuinely scale to equivalent difficulty then scale up til people get downed heroes.

The current system just rewards a warped way of playing to game the system. You join late to abuse the rubberbanding and get your points for the minimum possible wins that way you limit your personal scaling. It's no less gamey than tanking in PvP.

Bottom line is people seem to think winning with spiderman is somehow "less honorable" than winning with other heroes and just popping to the prologue to heal when they probably take about the same amount of time given how much quicker it is to win without making blue and yellow matches for non-damaging abilities. If they ever fix the prologue healing loophole ppl will be singing a different tune.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

gamar wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Why should the game make any conclusion other than 'fight was too easy' when you walk out of a fight taking no damage?

Because to go back to everyone's favorite Magic: the Gathering analogies, how much life you have at the end of a game has approximately zero relevance in determining how close that game was?

Sure, if you want to pretend that every fight exists in a vacuum. The devs don't. A single fight is one fight in the broader context of a large PVE event or multiple PVP battles. And in that respect, the only thing that matters is that you have full heath and can traipse into the next fight as if the first didn't even happen. You get all the benefits and none of the consequences from winning a fight whereas someone who used another set of characters did.

Yes, and that just proves Davey's point about Spidey, doesn't it? If you're using Spidey, the scaling isn't being based on the difficulty of the fights, but based on the fact that there is no way to use the character as he is designed that doesn't penalize you based on systemic metrics unrelated to the actual difficulty you're having in your battles

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

jozier wrote:

Sure, if you want to pretend that every fight exists in a vacuum. The devs don't. A single fight is one fight in the broader context of a large PVE event or multiple PVP battles. And in that respect, the only thing that matters is that you have full heath and can traipse into the next fight as if the first didn't even happen. You get all the benefits and none of the consequences from winning a fight whereas someone who used another set of characters did.

The "consequence" of going to the prologue for a couple of minutes to fully heal? Seriously? Consequences? The whole argument that damage taken in a fight is a good way to determine if the fights should get harder is **** because of how easy it is to heal in the prologue. The only real consequence in a fight (once people have a healer, but since this discussion is about a 3* hero spiderman you'd assume we're talking about having OBW or spidey) is if anyone is downed. If you want to genuinely scale to equivalent difficulty then scale up til people get downed heroes.

The current system just rewards a warped way of playing to game the system. You join late to abuse the rubberbanding and get your points for the minimum possible wins that way you limit your personal scaling. It's no less gamey than tanking in PvP.

Bottom line is people seem to think winning with spiderman is somehow "less honorable" than winning with other heroes and just popping to the prologue to heal when they probably take about the same amount of time given how much quicker it is to win without making blue and yellow matches for non-damaging abilities. If they ever fix the prologue healing loophole ppl will be singing a different tune.

Prologue healing has a miniscule impact on scaling as compared to healing with Spider-Man in battle.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

Prologue healing has a miniscule impact on scaling as compared to healing with Spider-Man in battle.

That's my point. Both have essentially the same outcome, you get fully healed yet one is punished heavily by scaling, the other isn't. If you say Spidey use deserves scaling based punishment so does prologue healing.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

jozier wrote:

Prologue healing has a miniscule impact on scaling as compared to healing with Spider-Man in battle.

That's my point. Both have essentially the same outcome, you get fully healed yet one is punished heavily by scaling, the other isn't. If you say Spidey use deserves scaling based punishment so does prologue healing.

How would that even be implemented? Deservedness aside I'm sure the devs can look at the data and see behavior indicating prologue healing but there is not a guy there turning a knob to make the scaling go up when he sees many people doing that.

Scaling inside and event has to be based off an algorithm and acts on the parameters given to it. It should be simple for it to look at win/loss and damage taken. Should it also take the processing power needed to look at your team composition and prologue habits and after running the numbers give you a message that says "hey by the numbers we should increase scaling but we see that you are running sipidey like a boss so we are cool here." *fistbump*

Unknown

From what I gather the devs do punish you for going to prologue to heal. If they see your health went up by a lot without using a health pack they assume you used prologue to heal and treats it as the same as a Spiderman flawless victory.

Unknown

Cryptobrancus wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

jozier wrote:

Prologue healing has a miniscule impact on scaling as compared to healing with Spider-Man in battle.

That's my point. Both have essentially the same outcome, you get fully healed yet one is punished heavily by scaling, the other isn't. If you say Spidey use deserves scaling based punishment so does prologue healing.

How would that even be implemented? Deservedness aside I'm sure the devs can look at the data and see behavior indicating prologue healing but there is not a guy there turning a knob to make the scaling go up when he sees many people doing that.

Scaling inside and event has to be based off an algorithm and acts on the parameters given to it. It should be simple for it to look at win/loss and damage taken. Should it also take the processing power needed to look at your team composition and prologue habits and after running the numbers give you a message that says "hey by the numbers we should increase scaling but we see that you are running sipidey like a boss so we are cool here." *fistbump*

The fact someone is running spidey to rapidly run missions with full health heroes is the same as prologue healing to rapidly run missions with full health heroes. The point is as soon as you have a healer, if you don't get a hero DOWNED you are literally COMPLETELY fine. You don't have to wait for healing, you don't have to use health packs you are essentially in exactly the same position but only one approach is punished while the other is not.

If you are looking at outcomes to scale to the only one that makes any sense is downed heroes. If no hero is downed it's pretty irrelevant what health levels look like once you have that healer to take to the prologue and make everyone better. OFC even that can be manipulated by running roster lowbies in to collapse at the enemy but it's better than the current setup IMO.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

Cryptobrancus wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

jozier wrote:

Prologue healing has a miniscule impact on scaling as compared to healing with Spider-Man in battle.

That's my point. Both have essentially the same outcome, you get fully healed yet one is punished heavily by scaling, the other isn't. If you say Spidey use deserves scaling based punishment so does prologue healing.

How would that even be implemented? Deservedness aside I'm sure the devs can look at the data and see behavior indicating prologue healing but there is not a guy there turning a knob to make the scaling go up when he sees many people doing that.

Scaling inside and event has to be based off an algorithm and acts on the parameters given to it. It should be simple for it to look at win/loss and damage taken. Should it also take the processing power needed to look at your team composition and prologue habits and after running the numbers give you a message that says "hey by the numbers we should increase scaling but we see that you are running sipidey like a boss so we are cool here." *fistbump*

The fact someone is running spidey to rapidly run missions with full health heroes is the same as prologue healing to rapidly run missions with full health heroes. The point is as soon as you have a healer, if you don't get a hero DOWNED you are literally COMPLETELY fine. You don't have to wait for healing, you don't have to use health packs you are essentially in exactly the same position but only one approach is punished while the other is not.

If you are looking at outcomes to scale to the only one that makes any sense is downed heroes. If no hero is downed it's pretty irrelevant what health levels look like once you have that healer to take to the prologue and make everyone better. OFC even that can be manipulated by running roster lowbies in to collapse at the enemy but it's better than the current setup IMO.

Aside from the fact that not everyone does prologue healing...
Damage throughout a match is what I would see as the fine tuning variable for a scaling algorithm. Saying it doesn't take into account one variable that you think is an important one does not mean the answer is to throw away all the rest of the variables it uses. We don't even know how much of an effect it causes just that IceIX admitted it does contribute to scaling increases. Maybe the reason spidey users scaling goes up so fast is because they *can* win many in a row and do so and the fact that they also finish the matches fully healed adds a small multiplier on the sheer volume of wins they put out.

This perception that spidey is being punished unfairly when none of us even know how much of an effect healing has on scaling is makes me question lots of things. How do you know it is so unfair? How would you fix it? Is the system fair to users who don't have/use healers?

Really not trying to bash on the healers here just trying to look at it sideways and see if there is any legitimacy to the way it is now, or if there is a better way to balance it keeping many play styles and team compositions in consideration.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

From what I gather the devs do punish you for going to prologue to heal. If they see your health went up by a lot without using a health pack they assume you used prologue to heal and treats it as the same as a Spiderman flawless victory.

Has this been verified? I don't use prologue healing often because it's tedious, but I have used it and I've never seen scaling go up in an event from doing it.

Unknown

UncleSam wrote:

Phantron wrote:

From what I gather the devs do punish you for going to prologue to heal. If they see your health went up by a lot without using a health pack they assume you used prologue to heal and treats it as the same as a Spiderman flawless victory.

Has this been verified? I don't use prologue healing often because it's tedious, but I have used it and I've never seen scaling go up in an event from doing it.

I'm pretty sure one of the thread a dev posted that they can tell when your HP suddenly went up by a lot without health pack being used and it's not hard to put 2 & 2 together.

Keep in mind any one victory isn't likely to have a significant effect on your scaling, and sometimes not at all. It's the cumulative effect that pushes stuff to 230s.

jojeda654

UncleSam wrote:

Phantron wrote:

From what I gather the devs do punish you for going to prologue to heal. If they see your health went up by a lot without using a health pack they assume you used prologue to heal and treats it as the same as a Spiderman flawless victory.

Has this been verified? I don't use prologue healing often because it's tedious, but I have used it and I've never seen scaling go up in an event from doing it.

Took me a while to find it, but here it is: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4442&p=73500#p73500

Unknown

jojeda654 wrote:

UncleSam wrote:

Phantron wrote:

From what I gather the devs do punish you for going to prologue to heal. If they see your health went up by a lot without using a health pack they assume you used prologue to heal and treats it as the same as a Spiderman flawless victory.

Has this been verified? I don't use prologue healing often because it's tedious, but I have used it and I've never seen scaling go up in an event from doing it.

Took me a while to find it, but here it is: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4442&p=73500#p73500

Quote in question:

IceIX wrote:

jozier wrote:

Sounds like you should be leaving your matches with damage and then healing in the prologue instead of at the end hm...

It accounts for that somewhat. Pretty easy for the system to see that you went out of one match in the Event near dead then entered the next one pretty quickly at full without Health Pack usage.

Unknown

Yeah that's the thread I was talking about. Puritas had an interesting theory about bringing Ares along for some last minute self mutiliation to keep your scaling down, and it sounds like it could work too, assuming you don't need Ares later.

Spoit

jozier wrote:

Sure, if you want to pretend that every fight exists in a vacuum. The devs don't. A single fight is one fight in the broader context of a large PVE event or multiple PVP battles. And in that respect, the only thing that matters is that you have full heath and can traipse into the next fight as if the first didn't even happen. You get all the benefits and none of the consequences from winning a fight whereas someone who used another set of characters did.

Exactly, the whole point of the boost cost change and AP funbalancing wasn't just to make matches longer, it was also to increase attrition, both from incidental match damage because of the longer turns and chances for the opponent being able to actually get abilities off, but also to eat up medpacks with cascades.