Muffin Discussion

OneLastGambit

madok wrote:

OneLastGambit wrote:

My second fix is to remove the invisibility portion of the shield mechanic. Everyone is available all of the time to everyone.

The only problem with this is people could abuse it to attack folks when they drop shields to hop. Say Player A makes someone with lots of friends mad. All those players queue up Player A and wait until they drop their shields to do a hop and all attack at the same time.

People do that anyway now. One of my alliance members got hit 9 times by the same guy yesterday and there's always stories of teams of people hitting someone that has stepped on someone toes.

Wouldn't it be nicer if after someone does that to you there were tons of targets to aim for instead of skipping for the next half an hour to find someone worth more than 25 points?

No system is going to be perfect and people will always abuse some aspect of it but I do believe what I've suggested is definitely better. Also what are people gonna do? Keep checking their phone every hour to see if you've unshielded ? If they've got that much free time to burn on a mobile game and they are sad enough enough to want to then they're welcome to my points, I have better things to do with my time than worry about fueding with someone on a mobile game.

tizian2015

To calm things down (hopefully) a bit:

In another thread I wrote I call cupcakes cheating. Maybe too harshly, but its abusing a broken system (from a different perspective "optimize" this system). What I didnt wrote: I fully understand, why people use this mechanic, of course. It may look like I wanted to insult someone, but I tried just to describe, what it is, without personal accusation.

But many of you admit in several posts, the pvp-system IS broken and with normal play, its nearly impossible to get the highest progression-rewards. The problem I see is: If many people found a way, to work with the broken system, the devs will see no reason (because they see the data with many outhanded progression rewards) to change/fix this broken system. And the many people, who get the progression rewards, from them will be no big protestwave against this broken system. That is the only problem I have with this.

With cupcaking (well, not the only reason, but one) the current system will not get fixed, because there is no protest (from important players) and the data says, "they play and get their rewards, its working".

As I said, to calm things down, and to explain my posts in the other thread.

Fightmastermpq

tizian2015 wrote:

with normal play, its nearly impossible to get the highest progression-rewards.

Please define "normal play."

tizian2015

Fightmastermpq wrote:

tizian2015 wrote:

with normal play, its nearly impossible to get the highest progression-rewards.

Please define "normal play."

I used the words of cupcakedefenders, so please ask them, what this means.

mohio

My assumption was "normal play" is defeating A teams and then shield hopping, also defeating A teams. I'm not really sure it's worthwhile to talk about because we don't really know what PvP will look like after clearance levels, or after a supposed "fix" to cupcaking. I was going to make some big post about how the top scores would be lowered because of no cupcakes, which has a detrimental effect on everyone. Those 4* rosters that are still in the top 2% of all players will be forced to shield hop starting around 1000 and won't be able to gain much more than 100 points per hop because they can't risk more than 2 fights. I thought about it some more though, and I really don't see how they can get rid of this phenomenon completely. Maybe cupcakes won't work, but people will move on to using brownies, or steaks or whatever. The huge 5* teams will push points early in an event and then drop 4* teams for all their friends to beat. So, things will more or less be the same, but you'll just have slightly longer hops beating tougher teams, since those are the only ones you can actually queue.

broll

simonsez wrote:

dsds wrote:

What's the point when eating a 75pt muffin with a 2* roster when clearly you know you will lose it in a matter of minutes through attacks.

If that's your logic, how do you justify attacking ANYONE?

He has a point. Unless you're 4*+ or a whale that can afford to shield constantly PvP is unwinnable.

To your point, that's why I rarely do PvP. It's neither fun nor winnable at my level.

GrumpySmurf1002

broll wrote:

He has a point. Unless you're 4*+ or a whale that can afford to shield constantly PvP is unwinnable

This was true well before cupcakes existed. 'Winning' a PvP has near always been around who spends the most efficiently.

There's maybe 5 players in the game that could win a PvP bracket without shielding, and they didn't get there without spending either.

MarvelMan

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

broll wrote:

He has a point. Unless you're 4*+ or a whale that can afford to shield constantly PvP is unwinnable

This was true well before cupcakes existed. 'Winning' a PvP has near always been around who spends the most efficiently.

There's maybe 5 players in the game that could win a PvP bracket without shielding, and they didn't get there without spending either.

Ill add that PVP isnt about winning. Its about punching above your weight class, either for progression or placement. Your choice, but not both.

Fightmastermpq

mohio wrote:

My assumption was "normal play" is defeating A teams and then shield hopping, also defeating A teams. I'm not really sure it's worthwhile to talk about because we don't really know what PvP will look like after clearance levels, or after a supposed "fix" to cupcaking. I was going to make some big post about how the top scores would be lowered because of no cupcakes, which has a detrimental effect on everyone. Those 4* rosters that are still in the top 2% of all players will be forced to shield hop starting around 1000 and won't be able to gain much more than 100 points per hop because they can't risk more than 2 fights. I thought about it some more though, and I really don't see how they can get rid of this phenomenon completely. Maybe cupcakes won't work, but people will move on to using brownies, or steaks or whatever. The huge 5* teams will push points early in an event and then drop 4* teams for all their friends to beat. So, things will more or less be the same, but you'll just have slightly longer hops beating tougher teams, since those are the only ones you can actually queue.

I guess my point is that cupcakes are "normal play" because they are a byproduct of all the current game mechanics:

- Points/Progression/Competition: Progression rewards, player ranks, and alliance ranks make high scores desirable, so people want to score high.
- ELO mechanic/shields: Because you lose more points to losses from people that are much lower than you, the higher you climb the more incentive you have to protect those points....with shields.
- Coordination/truces: Since the desire to score high is universal, and points can be injected into the slice through shields, higher scores can be had if players agree to band together in groups and only attack group members when shielded to boost scores.
- Speed/shield hopping: Since you can't be friendly with everyone and there are competitive players out there fighting for top placement rank (see first bullet) it becomes crucial to minimize the amount of time you remain unshielded with a high score, and minimize the amount of points non-friendly players can take from you and so you shield hop.
- Cupcakes: Since speed is so important the best way to maximize your shield hops is to be able to fight several teams very quickly. Since you are coordinating with a group you can all bake cupcakes for each other to all get larger hops and boost all scores.

There is nothing abnormal or exploitive about it, it's just the optimization of the current mechanics.

The other thing worth mentioning is that it seems like a lot of newer players think that cupcakes are a tool used solely for weaker players to reach undeserving rewards. If you stop and think about the mechanics as I have outlined them that isn't really the case. 5* players don't need cupcakes to hit progression rewards, but they still use them to boost scores because speed is so crucial in hopping at all tiers of play.

Calnexin

tizian2015 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

tizian2015 wrote:

with normal play, its nearly impossible to get the highest progression-rewards.

Please define "normal play."

I used the words of cupcakedefenders, so please ask them, what this means.

I used that term.

"Normal play", as I was using it, means you're only using the resources available to you in the game. Ie, not coordinating over Line or other chat programs and only coordinating with your alliance via the in-game capacity to do so (meaning you can't simultaneously chat and play, at least not on iOS).

Unless you know which slice and when a cupcake is baking, your chances of finding it are small. Absent high-value targets you lose more points than you gain past a certain threshold. For me that's around 600. I tend to see 25-30 point teams and get hit for 40-50 while I'm attacking. Obviously, mileage varies widely by slice, timezone, and bracket. I'm approaching two years of daily play and even if I had access to cupcakes, I see no potential to reach 1k, much less 1300.

Ruinate

My biggest concern is the disappearance of the social aspect of the game. Planning bake trains with my good buds is the most fun part of the game for me. I don't know what the devs could do to wipe out baking without making everyone lazy. I hate offseason because no one wants to do a damn thing except float around and clog queues.

Even with pve, champ rewards, and ddq, I still lose about 1000-2000 hero points every event and that's after hitting 1300 progression. I spend a lot on shields because it's fun to do so with my pals. If this were to go away, I'd naturally stop spending. I would hit 1300 and walk away and that would only last so long until I get bored of it and quit entirely. I truly fear every event becoming an offseason event.

I really hope the devs have a solid plan in place and they don't just yank baking away without doing much else. I don't have high hopes for clearance levels because for 5* players, it already exists. It's called 5* MMR and it's not a good thing.

jobob

dsds wrote:

Ok let me reword this. It is for higher roster players who can easily hit rank 100. It doesn't matter if someone can eat a muffin. It is the fact that they won't be able to keep those points for very long. Only the ones who have 4* or 5* rosters who can keep the points until the end. Near event ends, those 2* and 3* rosters get slaughtered. Even my higher 3* and earlier 4* roster gets slaughtered.

I don't think you are understanding the way points are generated and accumulated within a PVP. You WILL get hit, but you will float at a higher level.

For example... let's say that there are 5 2* teams stuck at 400 points, and 5 3* teams at 600. The 2*'s can't take out higher ranked teams, and if they climb much higher than 400, the 3* teams will knock them back down (but the 4*s will knock them down).

Then let's say the 4/5* teams start throwing out CC's. One of the 3*'s climbs up to 1200. The other 3*'s attack him, and raise there own points and drop his until it's not worth hitting him anymore, and they all equal out at about 750.

Now one of the 2* teams decides he also wants to eat cake. He climbs from 400 to 700, but can't go higher because the 3* teams start hitting him. The 2* teams come along and see a team they can beat worth a decent point total, so they hit him and drop him from 700 to 550, while raising their points.

There is a definite trickle-down effect that helps EVERYONE, but ESPECIALLY the lower tier rosters.

Without CCs, everyones score will not only be lower, but closer together. So that 2* team at 400 that a 4* or 5* team would never look at suddenly becomes a viable target if they can be Qd.

The Bob The

Wellp, looks like we might as well lock this one up.

MarvelMan

The Bob The wrote:

Wellp, looks like we might as well lock this one up.

Do you mean the game or the thread?


If you think the high end players arent the ones supporting the game, youre foolish. Take away something they consider fun and they will spend less, play less and eventually move on. Not all will, but some. And once that trickle starts, it *could* be the slipperly slope that kills the game. Taking away something big, without adding *ANYTHING* is a HORRIBLE decision. Not to mention the lack of transparency associated with it (nothing in the Hot Fix thread), lack of planning, everything seems poorly done. Again.

The Bob The

The thread. CC meta looks to now be entirely different to what's discussed here.

Fightmastermpq

The Bob The wrote:

The thread. CC meta looks to now be entirely different to what's discussed here.

It's not. They changed the mechanics of how defensive teams are set. Give it a couple of events and the players will figure out how to optimize again.

fmftint

Officially, nothing changed IN THE MIDDLE of the event...

Astralgazer

I think the new pancake has begun the reign. People coming out of shield using their B-team. I've seen people with strong 4* rosters presenting strong 3* teams in my Q. So, I think this is what they use now as pancake. Still weak enough for their alliance mates, who also have 4* rosters, but strong enough to deter random attack while they are shield hopping. They can always retal with their 4* team later on.

This is just a wild guess. Welcome to the pancake era.

MarvelMan

Astralgazer wrote:

I think the new pancake has begun the reign. People coming out of shield using their B-team. I've seen people with strong 4* rosters presenting strong 3* teams in my Q. So, I think this is what they use now as pancake. Still weak enough for their alliance mates, who also have 4* rosters, but strong enough to deter random attack while they are shield hopping. They can always retal with their 4* team later on.

This is just a wild guess. Welcome to the pancake era.

Thats what happens when you attempt to fix a symptom without touching (or acknowledging) the problem.

The Bob The

I like "flapjack," myself, but I supposed this would give the Lumberjacks alliances unfair advantage.