Muffin Discussion

mohio

I'm sure I'm not going to be the first to say it but the 5* "meta" (for lack of a better term) is not at all diverse. Due to accessibility, if you are one of the lucky few who can sport a high level 5* chances are you are using OML, PHX, and Surfer. Of course there will be people who decided to whale latest tokens at some point and have a usable GG and BSSM, or who whale everything and can use any of the 5*, or who whaled civil war tokens and have a maxed IM46. My point is, if you're rocking OML/PHX, chances are your opponents are mostly also using OML/PHX. Frankly, this just gets boring after a while. Fighting the same mirror match over and over up to a certain score point does not sound at all fun to me. At least with "baking" you get to break that up once you get to a certain point and the game takes a bit of a turn as you're fighting different teams and your goal is slightly different. So, if they change things around so that we are still supposed to hit 1300 for the best rewards yet we are limited in our opponents to those in our same "class" or whatever, then I'm likely going to be looking for new games to play, cause it's just not my idea of fun.

Fightmastermpq

dsds wrote:

jobob wrote:

dsds wrote:

.Edit: It's not really healthy for a game to have such a huge disparity of points between a new player and a veteran. Really a 2000-4000 point difference between the top player and the lowest ranked player? Even if you put out cupcakes, the top players take back the points. It really only helps the top 50, but not really the bottom 200.

You mean it doesn't really help the top, but really only helps the bottom?

The bottom people can't get to the cupcakes. So how does it help them? It only helps the guys who are at the 4* or 5* level because they are the ones who can eat it. They don't get attacked as often as the lower end players so they have a much better chance at seeing a cupcake and eating it. They keep most of those points because no one in 2* land will take their points.

The trickle down effect quickly stops at most at rank 100 probably.

My cakes have been hit by 2* rosters before that just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

Also, you don't have to eat the cake to benefit from it - hence the "trickle down".....Consider a 4* player eating a cake and then getting beaten by a 3->4 transitioner who gets beat by a 3* player who gets beat by a 2->3 transitioner etc. All those players end up with more points than they otherwise would have.

It's why scores are higher in other slices - not just at the top end, but for everyone. The higher those top end scores the higher everyone's float point becomes. If you haven't tried some of the other slices I would encourage you to move to S1/S4 and see how much easier it is to hit progression than S2 for example.

donnel

The fact that cooperative play exists in pvp (throwing out easier teams on defense during shield hops) has all along been masking major issues with the PVP system. In it's basic form with no team play, it seems like the developers want no one under 4* to ever reach max progression. They want you to use a bunch of shields and hope and pray that no one hits you during your 10 min hops where you have no idea of the points you'll receive per match, thereby wasting time and money while very possibly getting nowhere. If you play in a slice where no cooperation occurs, >95% of people will not reach progression; people will just float around and try for 1K and leave it at that. Why design events for everyone to play where the progression-based goal is virtually unobtainable unless you're a multiyear veteran or big spender? Players "optimized" PVP because the design is deeply flawed and has not been touched for an incredibly long amount of time. I'll give them credit for exploring a lot of different options for PVE and ending up with a system that has more rewards for less time investment. Instead of fixing "exploits", I hope they try to address bigger issues in PVP with a more comprehensive overhaul.

jobob

dsds wrote:

The bottom people can't get to the cupcakes. So how does it help them? It only helps the guys who are at the 4* or 5* level because they are the ones who can eat it. They don't get attacked as often as the lower end players so they have a much better chance at seeing a cupcake and eating it. They keep most of those points because no one in 2* land will take their points.

The trickle down effect quickly stops at most at rank 100 probably.

The people at the 4/5* level don't need the cupcakes. Even if what you say we're true (which it isn't, I've seen lots of 2/3* teams feast on cakes), the trickle-down effect helps the bottom players the most. When you raise the water level, everyone floats higher. Low end players may get attacked just as often, but it will be at a higher point total than if no one were baking. Even if you aren't eating CCs, someone else with a similar roster will. That means they will either be A) worth more points to you when you hit them, or be a more enticing target than you, allowing you to get a higher score before becoming "worth it."

Look, cakes may mean that the top score is 5,000 instead of 2,500... But who cares? After 1300, it's all a tinykitty measuring contest anyway.

fmftint

MarvelMan wrote:

dsds wrote:

The trickle down effect quickly stops at most at rank 100 probably.

I guarantee that is not true. While queuing cupcakes (over 900 pts, rank 70ish) Ive been hit by players who were just starting and had less than 200 pts. I will give you that those players had good rosters (equivalent to mine), but its not a rank thing. And ccing does trickle down from 5* to 4* to 3*, etc as Ive seen muffins eaten by 2* and 3* players.

All you have to do is look at any off season event and see what happens when the top end isn't climbing as high.
Point inflation helps the entire slice

Vhailorx

It seems pretty clear that high scores at the top of the slice mean higher scores throughout the slice. Just look at the effort necessary to reach any given score during an offseason event as opposed to hitting the same score in-season in the same slice. worlds of difference.

Players tend not to attack down in points (because the retals are brutal), so when the top tier of players have higher scores, the second tier has more 'room' to climb up without seeing as many attacks. And that effect is universal. Even you didn't eat a muffin yourself, the teams you hit probably had more points (and thus you get more points) because somewhere along the way one of them ate a muffin, or ate someone who ate a muffin, etc.

jobob

Here's part of the problem: PVP is a misnomer. There is no player vs player combat. You are playing against the AI every single time.

...Amd if the devs didn't expect any cooperation, then why have alliance rankings in PVP? I never assumed it was an every man for himself thing.

jobob

fmftint wrote:

MarvelMan wrote:

dsds wrote:

The trickle down effect quickly stops at most at rank 100 probably.

I guarantee that is not true. While queuing cupcakes (over 900 pts, rank 70ish) Ive been hit by players who were just starting and had less than 200 pts. I will give you that those players had good rosters (equivalent to mine), but its not a rank thing. And ccing does trickle down from 5* to 4* to 3*, etc as Ive seen muffins eaten by 2* and 3* players.

All you have to do is look at any off season event and see what happens when the top end isn't climbing as high.
Point inflation helps the entire slice

Exactly. Eliminating cakes will not hurt whales... They will get to 1300 regardless. The people who notice it the most will be the people who top out at 1300 or less in the current system. When the point injection from CCs goes away, they will find themselves a couple reward tiers lower, whether they ever ate cakes or not.

jobob

fight4thedream wrote:

Having discussed the matter with Hi-Fi, we have decided to allow this thread to remain open because we understand the issue of cupcakes, muffins, brownies, steaks and such are an important element of game play for many players. However, we ask that you remember to keep discussion constructive and respectful. Any flaming and/or trolling posts will be dealt with harshly and risks having this thread locked. Please keep the discussion civil and on topic. Thank you.

Thanks f4td... Appreciate the restraint. Will try to show similar restraint in the discussion.

mpqr7

I rarely find ccs anyway, so having or not having them makes little difference to me. I don't have the interest in coordinating with anyone. I want to do my run when I want to do it. I try to avoid a few former teammates, and that's about it.

It does get frustrating that as I level up my 5*s, soon I'm just facing even stronger teams, which lead to 5-minute battles that require 3 healthpacks each, and then soon I'm losing hundreds of points as I finish each battle to teams with even higher championed 5*s.

It's actually gotten harder and harder to hit 1300 as I've leveled my 5*s up further, which seems backwards to me. I think it was easiest when my OML was around lv 390.

I'm hopeful that these clearance levels improve things a bit.

Meander

mpqr7 wrote:

I rarely find ccs anyway, so having or not having them makes little difference to me. I don't have the interest in coordinating with anyone. I want to do my run when I want to do it. I try to avoid a few former teammates, and that's about it.

It does get frustrating that as I level up my 5*s, soon I'm just facing even stronger teams, which lead to 5-minute battles that require 3 healthpacks each, and then soon I'm losing hundreds of points as I finish each battle to teams with even higher championed 5*s.

It's actually gotten harder and harder to hit 1300 as I've leveled my 5*s up further, which seems backwards to me. I think it was easiest when my OML was around lv 390.

I'm hopeful that these clearance levels improve things a bit.

This is a huge problem, and leads to what I would think are unintended consequences. The devs are clearly against soft capping, as we've seen with the PVE changes, yet here I am soft capping my 5/5/2 phoenix to 390, because of testimony like this. It's clearly a flawed system if limiting your character leveling is a benefit.

Hendross

Meander wrote:

mpqr7 wrote:

I rarely find ccs anyway, so having or not having them makes little difference to me. I don't have the interest in coordinating with anyone. I want to do my run when I want to do it. I try to avoid a few former teammates, and that's about it.

It does get frustrating that as I level up my 5*s, soon I'm just facing even stronger teams, which lead to 5-minute battles that require 3 healthpacks each, and then soon I'm losing hundreds of points as I finish each battle to teams with even higher championed 5*s.

It's actually gotten harder and harder to hit 1300 as I've leveled my 5*s up further, which seems backwards to me. I think it was easiest when my OML was around lv 390.

I'm hopeful that these clearance levels improve things a bit.

This is a huge problem, and leads to what I would think are unintended consequences. The devs are clearly against soft capping, as we've seen with the PVE changes, yet here I am soft capping my 5/5/2 phoenix to 390, because of testimony like this. It's clearly a flawed system if limiting your character leveling is a benefit.

+1

I also have multiple 5's soft-capped. This is a bigger problem than any dessert item. The game gets harder* the better you get, makes zero sense.

*With the same rewards

Jarvind

fight4thedream wrote:

Having discussed the matter with Hi-Fi, we have decided to allow this thread to remain open because we understand the issue of cupcakes, muffins, brownies, steaks and such are an important element of game play for many players. However, we ask that you remember to keep discussion constructive and respectful. Any flaming and/or trolling posts will be dealt with harshly and risks having this thread locked. Please keep the discussion civil and on topic. Thank you.

Additional euphemisms to consider for "baking a cupcake:"

Frying an egg
Buttering a lobster
Marinating a porkchop
COOKIN' UP SOME CRYSTAL
Waiting for the souffle to rise
Kneading some dough
JESSE WE NEED TO COOK
Brewing a coffee
Shucking the corn
Boiling a noodle
I AM THE ONE WHO KNOCKS
Preparing an artisinal slow-roasted duck **** with heirloom leek puree and a port wine reduction
This got away from me somehow

TxMoose

might be beneficial to define some of these terms. I play at a higher level, but certainly not the highest and I don't even know what the cut-offs are for the different terms. Can someone break down:

cupcake
muffin
brownie
steak

thanks.

GrumpySmurf1002

TxMoose wrote:

might be beneficial to define some of these terms. I play at a higher level, but certainly not the highest and I don't even know what the cut-offs are for the different terms. Can someone break down:

cupcake
muffin
brownie
steak

thanks.

I've found it varies a bit from slice to slice, but roughly cc = 1*, muffin = 2*, brownie = 3*, steak = 4*.

dsds

MarvelMan wrote:

dsds wrote:

The trickle down effect quickly stops at most at rank 100 probably.

I guarantee that is not true. While queuing cupcakes (over 900 pts, rank 70ish) Ive been hit by players who were just starting and had less than 200 pts. I will give you that those players had good rosters (equivalent to mine), but its not a rank thing. And ccing does trickle down from 5* to 4* to 3*, etc as Ive seen muffins eaten by 2* and 3* players.

Ok let me reword this. It is for higher roster players who can easily hit rank 100. It doesn't matter if someone can eat a muffin. It is the fact that they won't be able to keep those points for very long. Only the ones who have 4* or 5* rosters who can keep the points until the end. Near event ends, those 2* and 3* rosters get slaughtered. Even my higher 3* and earlier 4* roster gets slaughtered.

What's the point when eating a 75pt muffin with a 2* roster when clearly you know you will lose it in a matter of minutes through attacks. I consider the 1000 pt progression reward as a benefit to whoever gets it. A 2* roster or even a 3* one will very very rarely hit 1000pts even if they eat a few number of cupcakes. Muffins does nothing to help them increase in rank or to achieve the 1000 pt progression goal. Rare exceptions being people who use shields, but usually it requires more shields than what you guys say here. You can probably be unshielded for one or two fights max whereas a 4* or 5* roster and can stay unshielded a lot longer.

simonsez

dsds wrote:

What's the point when eating a 75pt muffin with a 2* roster when clearly you know you will lose it in a matter of minutes through attacks.

If that's your logic, how do you justify attacking ANYONE?

dsds

simonsez wrote:

dsds wrote:

What's the point when eating a 75pt muffin with a 2* roster when clearly you know you will lose it in a matter of minutes through attacks.

If that's your logic, how do you justify attacking ANYONE?

Exactly, there is no point for a 2* roster to attack anyone once they go over 300pts. It's just not worth the effort except for the ISO which is significant for a 2* roster. This has been said by the developers that you can only achieve a certain reward based on your level. Muffins/cupcakes do not help them. It makes no difference for the bottom feeders. They only help 4* and 5* roster who can easily make it to 1000pts if they tried in the first place.

MarvelMan

TxMoose wrote:

might be beneficial to define some of these terms. I play at a higher level, but certainly not the highest and I don't even know what the cut-offs are for the different terms. Can someone break down:

cupcake
muffin
brownie
steak

thanks.

Im there with you. Ive jumped into some Line rooms and watched the "conversation" flow. Its like mixing Welsh with Arabic, some Asian characters and a touch of Cyrillic to taste.....wait, that sounds like a recipe.

MarvelMan

dsds wrote:

simonsez wrote:

dsds wrote:

What's the point when eating a 75pt muffin with a 2* roster when clearly you know you will lose it in a matter of minutes through attacks.

If that's your logic, how do you justify attacking ANYONE?

Exactly, there is no point for a 2* roster to attack anyone once they go over 300pts. It's just not worth the effort except for the ISO which is significant for a 2* roster. This has been said by the developers that you can only achieve a certain reward based on your level. Muffins/cupcakes do not help them. It makes no difference for the bottom feeders. They only help 4* and 5* roster who can easily make it to 1000pts if they tried in the first place.

Wow.....pessimistic much?

Have you considered sticking to PVE/DDQ? At least initially it allows a greater sense of advancement and a better reward flow.