SnowcaTT wrote: A discussion I had with team-mates and I've seen on the boards: "Should I jump into Iso-8 late, for the 4* cover?" "Well, it's a double ISO event. And you'd miss out on CP." "Maybe I should run the whole event for placement?" "Well, it's a week-long event of 8-hour refreshes" That's about as long as the discussion needs to be for many players. But let's look into what is unsaid there."Should I jump into Iso-8 late, for the 4* cover?"-Rewards are not worth the effort being put into them -There are 33 4*'s, it's not exciting to have a new one. -With few chances to get specific 4*'s, it is still tempting to try for it. -And with those 33 4*'s, you'll primarily have to depend on RNG to get that characters' covers -And with those 33 (and growing) 4*'s, RNG is less and less likely to get you that cover"Well, it's a double ISO event. And you'd miss out on CP."-ISO is so -incredibly- scarce, it isn't worth using it on resources other than leveling your characters. -ISO use has been -vastly- out-paced by character releases (since it is all 4*+ releases, and they cost so much to level) -CP is also given out rather stingily, and the PVE CP nodes are one of the few chances to get it on a daily basis. -But CP is an absolute necessity, since 5*'s are quickly making the 4*'s irrelevant in PVP. -And you pretty much have to PVP to guarantee specific 4*'s covers. -But of course, you must depend on RNG to get you those 5*'s. That CP will often end up being worth 1000 ISO..."Maybe I should run the whole event for placement?" -Can I top out over the whales to be in the T2 (or even T10)? -Because it certainly won't be worth the HP trying to get the character at 0.1% chances. -Wow I wish these event rewards were all on progressions already. -And do I have the "right" characters for this event? Or are they covered and under-leveled like most of my roster? -What will my scaling be for this event, off the charts again?"Well, it's a week-long event of 8-hour refreshes"-You'll have to play every node at least three (specific) times a day x7 days x~9 nodes: 189 nodes to play. -But those 189 are just the start, how good you do will depend on the ~45 total more nodes you grinded at the end. -And then you'll have to get lucky for placement, have to depend on luck of the draw for your bracket since it is a new release. -Oh, but enjoy your +Critical boosts x500 this week! I mean....there are other problems with the games, but this PVE really, REALLY highlights the many of the biggest ones right now. ISO divvied out vs. the "value" of the rewards vs. the time/effort put in to get those rewards - how much longer will the playerbase determine the rewards are worth the effort? How much longer will D3 keep the players stuck in ISO-limbo, making these rewards even less enticing?
slidecage wrote: SnowcaTT wrote: A discussion I had with team-mates and I've seen on the boards: "Should I jump into Iso-8 late, for the 4* cover?" "Well, it's a double ISO event. And you'd miss out on CP." "Maybe I should run the whole event for placement?" "Well, it's a week-long event of 8-hour refreshes" That's about as long as the discussion needs to be for many players. But let's look into what is unsaid there."Should I jump into Iso-8 late, for the 4* cover?"-Rewards are not worth the effort being put into them -There are 33 4*'s, it's not exciting to have a new one. -With few chances to get specific 4*'s, it is still tempting to try for it. -And with those 33 4*'s, you'll primarily have to depend on RNG to get that characters' covers -And with those 33 (and growing) 4*'s, RNG is less and less likely to get you that cover"Well, it's a double ISO event. And you'd miss out on CP."-ISO is so -incredibly- scarce, it isn't worth using it on resources other than leveling your characters. -ISO use has been -vastly- out-paced by character releases (since it is all 4*+ releases, and they cost so much to level) -CP is also given out rather stingily, and the PVE CP nodes are one of the few chances to get it on a daily basis. -But CP is an absolute necessity, since 5*'s are quickly making the 4*'s irrelevant in PVP. -And you pretty much have to PVP to guarantee specific 4*'s covers. -But of course, you must depend on RNG to get you those 5*'s. That CP will often end up being worth 1000 ISO..."Maybe I should run the whole event for placement?" -Can I top out over the whales to be in the T2 (or even T10)? -Because it certainly won't be worth the HP trying to get the character at 0.1% chances. -Wow I wish these event rewards were all on progressions already. -And do I have the "right" characters for this event? Or are they covered and under-leveled like most of my roster? -What will my scaling be for this event, off the charts again?"Well, it's a week-long event of 8-hour refreshes"-You'll have to play every node at least three (specific) times a day x7 days x~9 nodes: 189 nodes to play. -But those 189 are just the start, how good you do will depend on the ~45 total more nodes you grinded at the end. -And then you'll have to get lucky for placement, have to depend on luck of the draw for your bracket since it is a new release. -Oh, but enjoy your +Critical boosts x500 this week! I mean....there are other problems with the games, but this PVE really, REALLY highlights the many of the biggest ones right now. ISO divvied out vs. the "value" of the rewards vs. the time/effort put in to get those rewards - how much longer will the playerbase determine the rewards are worth the effort? How much longer will D3 keep the players stuck in ISO-limbo, making these rewards even less enticing? -Wow I wish these event rewards were all on progressions already. I have no idea why people keep going WE WANT PROGRESSION PVE.... Do you know how much you have to grind to get the 4 star covers in a normal PVE.. People think O if we go progression i will be able to get the cover in 3 of each node... If they did do progression they would demand at least 5 or 6 Clears in each node for 1 cover and probally up to 8 to 9 clears in each nod for all 3 covers... So even if they went pure progression your going to be forced to grind... I love the people who think if they went progression that doing 2 or 3 clears is going to get you 3 4 star covers LOL 8 clears all 4 star covers 7 clears 2 4 stars 6 clears 4 star 5 clears 3 3 stars 4 clears 2 3 stars 3 clears 25 cp 2 clears 1 3 star aboout how a progression pve would run
Bowgentle wrote: slidecage wrote: SnowcaTT wrote: A discussion I had with team-mates and I've seen on the boards: "Should I jump into Iso-8 late, for the 4* cover?" "Well, it's a double ISO event. And you'd miss out on CP." "Maybe I should run the whole event for placement?" "Well, it's a week-long event of 8-hour refreshes" That's about as long as the discussion needs to be for many players. But let's look into what is unsaid there."Should I jump into Iso-8 late, for the 4* cover?"-Rewards are not worth the effort being put into them -There are 33 4*'s, it's not exciting to have a new one. -With few chances to get specific 4*'s, it is still tempting to try for it. -And with those 33 4*'s, you'll primarily have to depend on RNG to get that characters' covers -And with those 33 (and growing) 4*'s, RNG is less and less likely to get you that cover"Well, it's a double ISO event. And you'd miss out on CP."-ISO is so -incredibly- scarce, it isn't worth using it on resources other than leveling your characters. -ISO use has been -vastly- out-paced by character releases (since it is all 4*+ releases, and they cost so much to level) -CP is also given out rather stingily, and the PVE CP nodes are one of the few chances to get it on a daily basis. -But CP is an absolute necessity, since 5*'s are quickly making the 4*'s irrelevant in PVP. -And you pretty much have to PVP to guarantee specific 4*'s covers. -But of course, you must depend on RNG to get you those 5*'s. That CP will often end up being worth 1000 ISO..."Maybe I should run the whole event for placement?" -Can I top out over the whales to be in the T2 (or even T10)? -Because it certainly won't be worth the HP trying to get the character at 0.1% chances. -Wow I wish these event rewards were all on progressions already. -And do I have the "right" characters for this event? Or are they covered and under-leveled like most of my roster? -What will my scaling be for this event, off the charts again?"Well, it's a week-long event of 8-hour refreshes"-You'll have to play every node at least three (specific) times a day x7 days x~9 nodes: 189 nodes to play. -But those 189 are just the start, how good you do will depend on the ~45 total more nodes you grinded at the end. -And then you'll have to get lucky for placement, have to depend on luck of the draw for your bracket since it is a new release. -Oh, but enjoy your +Critical boosts x500 this week! I mean....there are other problems with the games, but this PVE really, REALLY highlights the many of the biggest ones right now. ISO divvied out vs. the "value" of the rewards vs. the time/effort put in to get those rewards - how much longer will the playerbase determine the rewards are worth the effort? How much longer will D3 keep the players stuck in ISO-limbo, making these rewards even less enticing? -Wow I wish these event rewards were all on progressions already. I have no idea why people keep going WE WANT PROGRESSION PVE.... Do you know how much you have to grind to get the 4 star covers in a normal PVE.. People think O if we go progression i will be able to get the cover in 3 of each node... If they did do progression they would demand at least 5 or 6 Clears in each node for 1 cover and probally up to 8 to 9 clears in each nod for all 3 covers... So even if they went pure progression your going to be forced to grind... I love the people who think if they went progression that doing 2 or 3 clears is going to get you 3 4 star covers LOL 8 clears all 4 star covers 7 clears 2 4 stars 6 clears 4 star 5 clears 3 3 stars 4 clears 2 3 stars 3 clears 25 cp 2 clears 1 3 star aboout how a progression pve would run And? People going for t10 for 3 covers are already doing 9+ clears. 8 clears for guaranteed 3 covers? yes, please.
slidecage wrote: Bowgentle wrote: i take top 10 with 6 clears... just saying people thinking progressino is going to be eaiser a nd think they will get the covers by doing just a few clears are going to be mistaking big time
Bowgentle wrote: i take top 10 with 6 clears... just saying people thinking progressino is going to be eaiser a nd think they will get the covers by doing just a few clears are going to be mistaking big time
Coppertouret wrote: slidecage wrote: Bowgentle wrote: i take top 10 with 6 clears... just saying people thinking progressino is going to be eaiser a nd think they will get the covers by doing just a few clears are going to be mistaking big time At least the clears probably wouldn't be held to such strict schedules for timing on each clear.
revskip wrote: Chief270 wrote: The main problems are STILL: Someone who has consistently played a PVE since day one of an event getting less than someone that played less than a day. People, including myself, play this system merely cause it exists. PVE needs to stop doing this. The fact that there are threads dedicated to WAITING TO PLAY until a fresh cycle makes this obvious. Are developers really saying that whoever is 1000th in a grouping can grind and grind and grind with little hope of a reward, while that 1001st gets a fresh bracket, and could possibly put minimal effort into it to secure the wanted cover(s). Go to progression primarily/only for the main rewards, and you will actually see people start playing your PVEs much earlier than they are today. The ISO dealt out are the same today in the 4 to 5 star era of the game as they were in the 2/3 and the 3/4 star eras. I started when the only 4*s were baglady and x-force wolvie. Why are the iso rewards the essentially the same today as they were back then? Except that isn't at all true. The person who joins late with perfect info (which requires some out of game coordination to even be possible) gets at best three 4* covers. The person who joins at the beginning of the event and grinds it might not get any of the 4* covers but will still come away with a bunch of ISO-8, some HP, some 2* and 3* covers, several event tokens and 25 CP. So at worst they will end up with two fewer 4* covers and a bunch of other loot. At best they end up with a 5* cover from the 25 CP, a 4* cover from the event tokens and all the other loot. Should ISO rewards be improved, absolutely. But the trade off between jumping into a bracket late with perfect info and grinding an event is significant.
Chief270 wrote: The main problems are STILL: Someone who has consistently played a PVE since day one of an event getting less than someone that played less than a day. People, including myself, play this system merely cause it exists. PVE needs to stop doing this. The fact that there are threads dedicated to WAITING TO PLAY until a fresh cycle makes this obvious. Are developers really saying that whoever is 1000th in a grouping can grind and grind and grind with little hope of a reward, while that 1001st gets a fresh bracket, and could possibly put minimal effort into it to secure the wanted cover(s). Go to progression primarily/only for the main rewards, and you will actually see people start playing your PVEs much earlier than they are today. The ISO dealt out are the same today in the 4 to 5 star era of the game as they were in the 2/3 and the 3/4 star eras. I started when the only 4*s were baglady and x-force wolvie. Why are the iso rewards the essentially the same today as they were back then?
Chief270 wrote: What if they flipped it, where all the covers were progression based rewards and the iso/hp/cp gains (that you feel is the balancing factor in this) was given out for placement instead? Would you still bracket snipe?
TxMoose wrote: Chief270 wrote: What if they flipped it, where all the covers were progression based rewards and the iso/hp/cp gains (that you feel is the balancing factor in this) was given out for placement instead? Would you still bracket snipe? the main reason I don't bracket snipe now is the cp/iso. if they flipped it, I'd happily trade some psylocke or quicksilver covers for several days of playing to still get my iso/cp. happily and readily.
The main items people want from a PVE are the placement rewards. That's why people (IE - you and me) are willing to forgo the progression rewards for a shot at getting everything from the placement without having to work nearly as hard as the thousands of other players that have been going since the word go.
TheOncomingStorm wrote: death ears.
TxMoose wrote: I think people are willing to forgo progression rewards because of the PITA competitive pve is, not because progression rewards don't have value to them. for them, the ROI on their time investment isn't there. for me, it is, because the only thing that improves my roster with any significance is iso and cp, not really covers.
TxMoose wrote: TxMoose wrote: I think people are willing to forgo progression rewards because of the PITA competitive pve is, not because progression rewards don't have value to them. for them, the ROI on their time investment isn't there. for me, it is, because the only thing that improves my roster with any significance is iso and cp, not really covers. this hamster is growing weary of pve. I think I disagree with my own post here. i'll be taking a break from optimal pve for a while and farm some casually. daughter has an activity last night and I don't get my grind completed. t20 is done. i'll be coasting in for t100 here.
SnowcaTT wrote: I forget, how long have you been in the game Tx? I went heavy PVE for 12-18 months...that seems about the burnout time for vets realizing they might as well stop grinding PVE's. For awhile there was reason to grind for the new characters - but reading Colog's thread on the "Irrelevant seven" (now nine) viewtopic.php?f=14&t=44686 - makes you realize folks are right - 4*'s are now all dependent on RNG for covers, and ISO isn't there even if you have them. No reason to try for the new ones anymore, considering even if/when you get the covers and even if/when you get the ISO you -still- won't be using them in this 5* world!
Redrobot30 wrote: But at least if we had progression we could grind/casually play at our own time. Being on a schedule sucks the life out of you. If you miss one optimal clear you are screwed for the event for the most part. Progression would allow for the time put into the game to dictate what rewards you get. The top 10 PvE players have always grinded like crazy people anyways so it isn't that big of a deal IMO. It would just give more players the chance to actually receive those top rewards. Not everyone will get them. Most people won't get them. But it will bring the proverbial carrot closer and would probably have more people make more time/financial investments.