*** The Hood (Classic) ***

Unknown

Pwuz_ wrote:

jralbino wrote:

Let's not downplay the difference between 15 and 18.

TP only costs 18 AP at 1 cover.
It's 17 at 2 covers, 16 at 3 covers (the lowest any final build could have,) & 15 at 4 covers.

Now can I go back to downplaying the difference between 15 & 15?

Eh, 15 in one hand, 1.25 dozens in the other.

Unknown

I don't think there is any reason to sell either of the characters. Sentry is still good. Too good even. Sacrifice isn't nerfed enough. Hood's strongest skill is still there, although you will almost never use his yellow anymore. The only time I would use it is to down the last character of the enemy team because I won't end my turn and give the freshly shook board to the AI. Ever.

Remove the end turn clause from 5 yellow!

Unknown

jralbino wrote:

das boot wrote:

Hood Yellow went from: only playable with 5 covers to completely unplayable.

I don't understand this "completely unplayable" sentiment. Don't get me wrong, I prefer that it had remained the same, and I would classify it as a nerf, but "completely unplayable" is an overstatement. I know it's a slippery slope to compare powers, but if I told you that GSBWs pistol was going to be buffed to clear an additional six tiles and do over 5,000 damage, but it would end turn, most would be pretty happy. Also, I know it's more expensive, but we're talking about a bigger one hit nuke with more tiles cleared than Xforce green, on a SUPPORT character. Finally, let's not downplay the difference between 15 and 18. There IS a difference. I was around for the old nerf castrations. This isn't even close to that. I think the old TP is better, but let's not go overboard.

Any change in an ability that makes it end the turn makes the ability marginally playable. It was one ability that was terrible unless you had all 5 covers in it. Now, even with all 5 colors, the ability is still going to be terrible. As other people have said, you're going to be spending 15 AP (which is the same as the current level 4) to shake up the board for your opponent. You are dealing more damage, but you're not earning AP, and the turn is still going to end. For 15 AP, that is awful.

Unknown

I don't have anything to say on the Sentry balance. Mine is fully covered but under leveled and I have only ever bombed in The Gauntlet so I don't really have an opinion.

The Hood on the other hand has been one of my staple characters since the beginning of the year and used regularly. I'm sad to see the AP generating aspect go but I'm also excited at the new prospect that the next time I need to clear suspected trap tiles I can do it with impunity. I'm thrilled for the damage increase and seriously confused about forcing it to end the turn; as others have already pointed out that leaves your Glass Cannon sitting up front to take whatever damage comes next and also leaves the brand new board for the enemy to use unless you get lucky enough to create a match-5 after the shot goes off.

I also want to state that I am never happy with the "increased" selling price of the characters after one of these changes occur. I would rather have the Iso be pulled out of the character and dropped back in my pool and they are back at base level. Giving me the opportunity to shift it somewhere else for a character that I think will be of better use. And I do understand that a lot of people have a characters that they've abused to get a bunch of rewards and this would just give them more but then some of us haven't abused the system and still get stuck.

Unknown

In my playstyle, hood got a minor upgrade. I have Hood at 5Y but rarely ever used it...so the loss of the ap gain isn't a big hit. It gives Hood more dimension now, being able to do enough damage to potentially down a character on TOP of draining AP. Ending the turn blows though, since hood is already seriously handicapped with low health. In order to get full benefit from 5Y, we'll need to level him higher, which no longer keeps Hood hidden behind tanks.

Dayv

ark123 wrote:

Btw it's always funny to me to see people picking abilities out of a hat and comparing them disregarding colors and ability kits completely. Nobody even considers what would happen if Dino's purple skill was Aggressive Recon.

... what?

Dayv

ZeiramMR wrote:

I do feel that Hood's yellow was over-nerfed, but I believe their rationale for the "ends turn" has more to do with it being a yellow power than it being "weaker" than other strong powers being mentioned. Look at the three other good Yellow active powers on Rare characters:

Thor - Max Level: Deals 2486 damage and Converts 9 tiles to green for 12 AP.
Black Panther - Max Level: 3x Strength 175 Strike tiles, 260 with Team-Up AP for 9 AP.
Sentry - Will become Max Level: Takes 1724 for 571 strike tile for 8 AP.

Those seem much more on a comparable level to Hood's power to me. Are there any other notable Yellow active powers at that rarity level worth mentioning? Only other one I could consider was Magneto but that's hard to gauge since it is a defensive power. Maybe in 4-star land, but I haven't seen enough of those in use to compare even if I did think those were a fair comparison.

Thor's yellow is so much better than even current Hood's -- let alone the new and awful version.

Dayv

CrookedKnight wrote:

Three things about this change make it particularly bad for Hood:

1) As a pure damage ability, Twin Pistols deals 380.4 damage per AP. The other damage-dealing power that ends the turn is Supernova, which clocks in at 1377 damage per AP, spread over the whole enemy team. That is a level of power that justifies the lack of a follow-up move. 5700-ish to one target is not.

Ddamage/AP with this skill gets even worse if you factor in the missed AP from ending the turn... Sure, you get any cascade AP, but in my experience, Supernova is also a better cascaders than Twin Pistols.

Dayv

NorthernPolarity wrote:

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

jralbino wrote:

As a side note, with the general consensus that this is to preempt a Thorina exploit, what should we expect with other tile destroying AP generators, specifically the Storms and MnMags?

Storms generates off green, so there's no immediate need to worry about infinite green generation.
MnMags has a random placement of the tile, so it will limit the ability to spam it, but there will stlil be some potential there. He's also a 2*, so you're not going to see FourThor-MnMags combos much aside from PvE.

Random tile destruction is too inconsistent to really be an issue with charged tiles.

Maybe they should have added a bit of damage and made TP randomly placed?

Pwuz_

KevinMark wrote:

I don't think there is any reason to sell either of the characters. Sentry is still good. Too good even. Sacrifice isn't nerfed enough. Hood's strongest skill is still there, although you will almost never use his yellow anymore. The only time I would use it is to down the last character of the enemy team because I won't end my turn and give the freshly shook board to the AI. Ever.

Remove the end turn clause from 5 yellow!

Choose your own Adventure MPQ:

You are playing and as the match drags on, you find yourself with 15 Yellow AP. Looking at the board, you have exactly one possible move, a match 3 on an off color (lets say purple.) Looking further, it's clear that this match 3 will give no cascades for you & will line up a straight match 5 for the AI next turn.

Would you choose to make the match 3 knowingly putting yourself in a position to be hit by a match 5 + any powers that the AI may activate (turn to page 36)
OR
would you use the New Twin Pistols? (turn to page 75)

Unknown

Pwuz_ wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

I don't think there is any reason to sell either of the characters. Sentry is still good. Too good even. Sacrifice isn't nerfed enough. Hood's strongest skill is still there, although you will almost never use his yellow anymore. The only time I would use it is to down the last character of the enemy team because I won't end my turn and give the freshly shook board to the AI. Ever.

Remove the end turn clause from 5 yellow!

Choose your own Adventure MPQ:

You are playing and as the match drags on, you find yourself with 15 Yellow AP. Looking at the board, you have exactly one possible move, a match 3 on an off color (lets say purple.) Looking further, it's clear that this match 3 will give no cascades for you & will line up a straight match 5 for the AI next turn.

Would you choose to make the match 3 knowingly putting yourself in a position to be hit by a match 5 + any powers that the AI may activate (turn to page 36)
OR
would you use the New Twin Pistols? (turn to page 75)

Ok, that makes two instances I would use that ability then. What's your point? Don't defend me the "ends turn" clause. It doesn't change the fact that the the nerfed ability sucks tinykitty balls.

Pwuz_

KevinMark wrote:

Pwuz_ wrote:

Choose your own Adventure MPQ:

You are playing and as the match drags on, you find yourself with 15 Yellow AP. Looking at the board, you have exactly one possible move, a match 3 on an off color (lets say purple.) Looking further, it's clear that this match 3 will give no cascades for you & will line up a straight match 5 for the AI next turn.

Would you choose to make the match 3 knowingly putting yourself in a position to be hit by a match 5 + any powers that the AI may activate (turn to page 36)
OR
would you use the New Twin Pistols? (turn to page 75)

Ok, that makes two instances I would use that ability then. What's your point? Don't defend me the "ends turn" clause.

Based on the original design of the ability; it's likely that the developers had intended the move to End the Turn, otherwise why did it End the Turn at all levels except for 5?

I think (and I'm purely speculating here) that during the early days of MPQ when "Lower AP cost by 1" was the go to upgrade for most abilities, removing the Turn Ending restriction on Level 5 felt like a sweet cherry on top for those who decided to build that way. Since it became more apparent with player use that 5 Yellow was of significant change than that on Intimidation, and forced most builds (pre-Sentry) to the 5/5/3. Post-Sentry, 5/5/3 still remained the preferred build except by those players who opted for Sentry Bombing (as Sentry is currently the ONLY character that spits out enough countdown tiles at once to justify the boost from 3 to 5.)

I think that the goal in character design is to ensure there is NO ONE ULTIMATE BUILD for any particular character. You should be torn as to how to build each and every character in the game. There should be a good argument towards ANY build.

Now, I honestly think there may be better ways to achieve this in Hood's case (why not buff Intimidation so it works like Anti-Gravity Device & deals EXTRA damage when no friendly countdown tiles are present?)

NorthernPolarity

Pwuz_ wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

Pwuz_ wrote:

Choose your own Adventure MPQ:

You are playing and as the match drags on, you find yourself with 15 Yellow AP. Looking at the board, you have exactly one possible move, a match 3 on an off color (lets say purple.) Looking further, it's clear that this match 3 will give no cascades for you & will line up a straight match 5 for the AI next turn.

Would you choose to make the match 3 knowingly putting yourself in a position to be hit by a match 5 + any powers that the AI may activate (turn to page 36)
OR
would you use the New Twin Pistols? (turn to page 75)

Ok, that makes two instances I would use that ability then. What's your point? Don't defend me the "ends turn" clause.

Based on the original design of the ability; it's likely that the developers had intended the move to End the Turn, otherwise why did it End the Turn at all levels except for 5?

I think (and I'm purely speculating here) that during the early days of MPQ when "Lower AP cost by 1" was the go to upgrade for most abilities, removing the Turn Ending restriction on Level 5 felt like a sweet cherry on top for those who decided to build that way. Since it became more apparent with player use that 5 Yellow was of significant change than that on Intimidation, and forced most builds (pre-Sentry) to the 5/5/3. Post-Sentry, 5/5/3 still remained the preferred build except by those players who opted for Sentry Bombing (as Sentry is currently the ONLY character that spits out enough countdown tiles at once to justify the boost from 3 to 5.)

I think that the goal in character design is to ensure there is NO ONE ULTIMATE BUILD for any particular character. You should be torn as to how to build each and every character in the game. There should be a good argument towards ANY build.

Now, I honestly think there may be better ways to achieve this in Hood's case (why not buff Intimidation so it works like Anti-Gravity Device & deals EXTRA damage when no friendly countdown tiles are present?)

I really hope that this isnt why they nerfed pistols, because the "5/5/3 is better in all non sentry bombign circumstances" is exactly the same and isnt gonna change e"with the pistols nerf.

Pwuz_

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I really hope that this isnt why they nerfed pistols, because the "5/5/3 is better in all non sentry bombign circumstances" is exactly the same and isnt gonna change e"with the pistols nerf.

Well, the other thing that would make Intimidation more useful without changing it is releasing more abilities that drop 6 or more countdown tiles.
I've always liked this idea for a Loki:

ErikPeter wrote:

LOKI

Spreading Paranoia 7 Green AP
Loki's lies provoke friend and foe alike, escalating the situation. Creates a 3-turn Paranoia countdown tile which, when activated, changes up to two random basic tiles into Paranoia countdown tiles if there are fewer than 6 on the board.
Level 2: Create two tiles. Maximum 8 tiles.
Level 5: Create 3 tiles. Maximum 10 tiles.
Level 4: Countdown tiles create one additional Paranoia countdown tile. Maximum 12 Paranoia tiles.
Level 5: Decreases countdown to 2.

Unknown

Pwuz_ wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

Pwuz_ wrote:

Choose your own Adventure MPQ:

You are playing and as the match drags on, you find yourself with 15 Yellow AP. Looking at the board, you have exactly one possible move, a match 3 on an off color (lets say purple.) Looking further, it's clear that this match 3 will give no cascades for you & will line up a straight match 5 for the AI next turn.

Would you choose to make the match 3 knowingly putting yourself in a position to be hit by a match 5 + any powers that the AI may activate (turn to page 36)
OR
would you use the New Twin Pistols? (turn to page 75)

Ok, that makes two instances I would use that ability then. What's your point? Don't defend me the "ends turn" clause.

Based on the original design of the ability; it's likely that the developers had intended the move to End the Turn, otherwise why did it End the Turn at all levels except for 5?

I think (and I'm purely speculating here) that during the early days of MPQ when "Lower AP cost by 1" was the go to upgrade for most abilities, removing the Turn Ending restriction on Level 5 felt like a sweet cherry on top for those who decided to build that way. Since it became more apparent with player use that 5 Yellow was of significant change than that on Intimidation, and forced most builds (pre-Sentry) to the 5/5/3. Post-Sentry, 5/5/3 still remained the preferred build except by those players who opted for Sentry Bombing (as Sentry is currently the ONLY character that spits out enough countdown tiles at once to justify the boost from 3 to 5.)

I think that the goal in character design is to ensure there is NO ONE ULTIMATE BUILD for any particular character. You should be torn as to how to build each and every character in the game. There should be a good argument towards ANY build.

Now, I honestly think there may be better ways to achieve this in Hood's case (why not buff Intimidation so it works like Anti-Gravity Device & deals EXTRA damage when no friendly countdown tiles are present?)

So, while they were trying to nerf Sentry they actually helped him via nerfing Twin Pistols and gravitating people towards a 3/5/5 Hood build? Is that what you are trying to say? I think you are biased because you won't need to worry about if 5/5/3 Hood is still better with Sentry after the nerf. Because if you're pairing him with Sentry, there is no reason to go 5/5/3 anymore. You're going to use Sacrifice and not Twin Pistols.

Pwuz_

KevinMark wrote:

if you're pairing him with Sentry, there is no reason to go 5/5/3 anymore. You're going to use Sacrifice and not Twin Pistols.

If you're pairing him with Sentry, of course you're going 3/5/5. Sentry is the ONLY character that Hood can make use of Intimidation at 5. The changes to TP don't change that. Who is currently running 5/5/3 Hood with Sentry? And even then who is using TP over Sacrifice.

My point is that after this change (ignoring pairing him with Sentry), it does make for a more interesting debate over the value of 5 Yellow vs 5 Black.

We all agree that Ending the turn does make TP a more risky option. But if you're not using Intimidate with Sentry, the extra damage at 5 Yellow still has a lot more value than 5 Black does.

Spoit

Nah, 5 can also be used with IM40 @ 1 or 2Y feeding LC, so 2 teams!

Pwuz_

Spoit wrote:

Nah, 5 can also be used with IM40 @ 1 or 2Y feeding LC, so 2 teams!

LC rarely gets out more than 2 countdown tiles (and by then the opposing team is stun locked and the game is over).
IM40 generates only 3 countdown tiles.

Level 3 Black still affects ALL of those tiles. Sure you could be running LC with IM40 (since LC's Yellow is useless and IM40 gives you a use for that yellow), but I'm seriously doubting many people are going to use LC, IM40, Hood together since that is a pretty handicapped team in terms of rainbow.

Unknown

Pwuz_ wrote:

KevinMark wrote:

if you're pairing him with Sentry, there is no reason to go 5/5/3 anymore. You're going to use Sacrifice and not Twin Pistols.

If you're pairing him with Sentry, of course you're going 3/5/5. Sentry is the ONLY character that Hood can make use of Intimidation at 5. The changes to TP don't change that. Who is currently running 5/5/3 Hood with Sentry?

Everyone who isn't using Hood exclusively with Sentry.

Pwuz_ wrote:

And even then who is using TP over Sacrifice.

Yes, no one would ever use TP over Sacrifice.

Pwuz_ wrote:

My point is that after this change (ignoring pairing him with Sentry), it does make for a more interesting debate over the value of 5 Yellow vs 5 Black.

We all agree that Ending the turn does make TP a more risky option. But if you're not using Intimidate with Sentry, the extra damage at 5 Yellow still has a lot more value than 5 Black does.

I disagree with you there. To me, a player who doesn't have a decent Sentry, Hood's black was always meh. His yellow was decent but usually not used because it was expensive and there were usually cheaper and better skills to use in that color. Now the situation is you have a one meh, and a bad skill instead of a decent one. For me there is no debate between 5 yellow vs 5 black because it is not a discussion worth my time anymore.

Spoit

Pwuz_ wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Nah, 5 can also be used with IM40 @ 1 or 2Y feeding LC, so 2 teams!

LC rarely gets out more than 2 countdown tiles (and by then the opposing team is stun locked and the game is over).
IM40 generates only 3 countdown tiles.

Level 3 Black still affects ALL of those tiles. Sure you could be running LC with IM40 (since LC's Yellow is useless and IM40 gives you a use for that yellow), but I'm seriously doubting many people are going to use LC, IM40, Hood together since that is a pretty handicapped team in terms of rainbow.

3 is 3 tiles, so if you have a LC tile out with your recharge and use it, you'll likely get 2 stuns for your recharge cast