Story Difficulty Scaling - New Test: Meet Rocket & Groot

Tryke

Quick question: Are there any changes to WAVE nodes rewards beyond the first clear? Having to repeatedly clear those for nothing but points is not fun.

Sluggo

I'm cautiously optimistic about these changes.

First off, I'm a huge fan of dumping the 8-hour refresh timers. Being able to play whenever I want instead of being locked into 8-hour cycles was the best thing about these tests, so I'm glad that's continuing.

Feeling compelled to do 6 clears a day felt like extra work for the same rewards, so lowering the number to 4 clears feels better ... theoretically. I wonder how many more people will feel compelled to do all 4 clears right at the start of each sub, and if that in turn causes more people to try and keep pace, but I think that's something you can't know for sure until you test it.

Going back to some trivial nodes is also a plus. Every node doesn't have to be a health-draining challenge. This is ultimately a match-3 game, so you'd like to have at least a few casual-friendly fights each day.

If nothing else, these changes suggest the devs are listening and trying, so that's a plus. Bring it on!

Devinsdsm

I second Sluggo. 4 clears for the rewards is at least do-able for those able to play an hour or less a day. I'm assuming the progression rewards will be scaled accordingly (4 clears each battle = full progression)?

sinnerjfl

Sluggo wrote:

I'm cautiously optimistic about these changes.

First off, I'm a huge fan of dumping the 8-hour refresh timers. Being able to play whenever I want instead of being locked into 8-hour cycles was the best thing about these tests, so I'm glad that's continuing.

Feeling compelled to do 6 clears a day felt like extra work for the same rewards, so lowering the number to 4 clears feels better ... theoretically. I wonder how many more people will feel compelled to do all 4 clears right at the start of each sub, and if that in turn causes more people to try and keep pace, but I think that's something you can't know for sure until you test it.

Going back to some trivial nodes is also a plus. Every node doesn't have to be a health-draining challenge. This is ultimately a match-3 game, so you'd like to have at least a few casual-friendly fights each day.

If nothing else, these changes suggest the devs are listening and trying, so that's a plus. Bring it on!

You know what's gonna happen, people playing this game will do about anything for new releases. Expect having to grind the 4 nodes opening at the sub, grinding at the end and then 4 more times at the start of the other sub. Does that sound fun to you?

That is excatly what was happening when the rewards were like TA Hulk for top10 and some other trash tier char...

That is the major flaw in their system and that still is not a solution. Hate the 8h timer all you want but it's actually a positive. You can already play whenever you want, you might not care about placement but some of us do. If you just want progression, you can totally reach it by playing whenever you want with the 8h timer. The only reason you think you can't is because you see the points value going down and guess what, it totally doesnt matter at all.

Top progression can already be reached right now without having to wait for the 8h timer. Play whenever the hell you want, you will still reach it eventually. The system has a huge leeway between top prog and optimal clears. Often time you can go above top progression by like 50,000 points...

WHY DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THIS PEOPLE ????? Nope, let's just ruin it for everybody to make people who don't understand the current system happy.

sinnerjfl

wymtime wrote:

The issue I still see is going from 1 sub to the next. You will need 90min to 2hrs to grind the nodes down 4 times at the end then grind 4 times at the start of the event so another 90 min to 2 hrs. This is setting up the game to be 4 hrs straight of PVE.

Why can't you runs the scaling test with with the normal 8 hr timers that we currently have? The scaling is getting better but having a set number of clears before the timer goes is making the system fundamentally flawed that causes significant PVE time commitment and puts more players at risk of burn out compared to the current system

because hurr durr, numbers are too complicated for people and they can't seem to understand its a net negative to remove the 8h timer.

Sluggo

So you're saying I can be completely indifferent to the 8 hour timers and still finish top 50 in every event? I'm not required to do a token clear at the start of a sub to maintain any placement, that I can just start clearing 12 hours in and I can still outpace the 100 people in any bracket sticking to the timers?

With all due respect, I think that's bonkers, and find it disappointing you're being so insulting while saying it. You want there to be constructive conversation here? Don't start "hurr durr"ing people for having the nerve to express an opinion different than your own. That's what a bully does.

Ducky

Sluggo wrote:

So you're saying I can be completely indifferent to the 8 hour timers and still finish top 50 in every event? I'm not required to do a token clear at the start of a sub to maintain any placement, that I can just start clearing 12 hours in and I can still outpace the 100 people in any bracket sticking to the timers?

With all due respect, I think that's bonkers, and find it disappointing you're being so insulting while saying it. You want there to be constructive conversation here? Don't start "hurr durr"ing people for having the nerve to express an opinion different than your own. That's what a bully does.

During the last test event I hit every node 7 times and didn't do an end grind. You know what place that got me? Top 300.

The simple fact is that if there is an optimal way to play an event then that is what you will have to do for decent placement, especially for new releases. Hit the nodes whenever you want during a new release with the test format and I bet you still don't make t100 in the new test structure.

You want better placement? Play optimally. It's as simple as that.

wymtime

Sluggo wrote:

So you're saying I can be completely indifferent to the 8 hour timers and still finish top 50 in every event? I'm not required to do a token clear at the start of a sub to maintain any placement, that I can just start clearing 12 hours in and I can still outpace the 100 people in any bracket sticking to the timers?

With all due respect, I think that's bonkers, and find it disappointing you're being so insulting while saying it. You want there to be constructive conversation here? Don't start "hurr durr"ing people for having the nerve to express an opinion different than your own. That's what a bully does.

In current PVE you don't need to do clears on the exact timer to place or hit progressions. Heart of darkness I started the event 2hrs in, did a 2nd clear 2hrs later will do one in the morn9ng and one at lunch and will be top 50 for the sub. That's 4 clears. In the new system if you want to place top 50 you will need to do 4 clears at the start of the event, because if you wait 12 hours andc50 people have already made 4 clears you cannot pass them because a tie goes to the person who got their first.

The 8 hr timer is good for people who are driven for placement and are achieving it already. If you go with the system in place it will take 2 hrs for 4 clears. In order to place you will need to hit 4 clears at the start of the sub and 4 clears at the end of the sub. That means 8 clears in a row to try and place. With the 8 hour timer you do 1 clear as close to 8 hours as possible give or take an hour, and then 4-5 clears at the end of the sub. It is the same number of clears but you don't have to do them in a one 4 hr block.

That is the way you score max points in the new system to place top 10 in the new system. My question is if this is a quality of life change why is making us play for 4 hours straight better then once every 8 hours?

Sluggo

I can't speak for everyone's bracket, but in my bracket with the TA Hulk rewards, I did 6 clears a day whenever I felt like it and finished top 50. It seemed clear most people in that particular bracket said "screw this, I'm not grindiing out 6 clears to start each sub", and only the most hardcore going for T10 went that route.

Is it possible my bracket was the exception and not the rule? Maybe? I don't know. But I do know I like not being locked into playing at specific times each day. I agree you don't have to hit the timers exactly on the nose to place well, but I'd completely disagree that you can be completely indifferent to them to place well, certainly not to the extent you can under the test system.

I'll say this: if doing 4-6 clears at the start of a sub is only necessary if you're going for T10, I say, let those people knock themselves out. But if that's required for top 100, then it's too much. It hasn't been the case in any of my test brackets so far, but apparently it has been for others. I say, let them continue to test and see how it plays out.

Ducky

Sluggo wrote:

I can't speak for everyone's bracket, but in my bracket with the TA Hulk rewards, I did 6 clears a day whenever I felt like it and finished top 50. It seemed clear most people in that particular bracket said "screw this, I'm not grindiing out 6 clears to start each sub", and only the most hardcore going for T10 went that route.

Is it possible my bracket was the exception and not the rule? Maybe? I don't know. But I do know I like not being locked into playing at specific times each day. I agree you don't have to hit the timers exactly on the nose to place well, but I'd completely disagree that you can be completely indifferent to them to place well, certainly not to the extent you can under the test system.

I'll say this: if doing 4-6 clears at the start of a sub is only necessary if you're going for T10, I say, let those people knock themselves out. But if that's required for top 100, then it's too much. It hasn't been the case in any of my test brackets so far, but apparently it has been for others. I say, let them continue to test and see how it plays out.

Again, when rewards matter (new releases), you won't be sniffing t100 with a playstyle like that.

sinnerjfl

Sluggo wrote:

So you're saying I can be completely indifferent to the 8 hour timers and still finish top 50 in every event? I'm not required to do a token clear at the start of a sub to maintain any placement, that I can just start clearing 12 hours in and I can still outpace the 100 people in any bracket sticking to the timers?

With all due respect, I think that's bonkers, and find it disappointing you're being so insulting while saying it. You want there to be constructive conversation here? Don't start "hurr durr"ing people for having the nerve to express an opinion different than your own. That's what a bully does.

That wasn't aimed at you, sorry if you took it that way. We have tried to explain this to people every time and it's just getting frustating at this point.

Removing the 8h timer is BAD, it will not help you for progression or placement.

It's bad for everyone but people are clearly not thinking straight and believing this is a huge improvement. It's not, it simply appears to be better while in fact it is way worse to remove the 8h timer.

For placement:
Current system: 1 clear every 8 hours, grind at the end of sub. 1 clear of next sub and etc. This is roughly 7 clears total per sub

New system: 4 clears at the start IN A ROW (this is important), grind down 24h later. 4 more clears at the start of next sub. Yes now it will be about 7 clears per sub as well with that test but if you want placement, you will have to do those 4 clears IMMEDIATELY at the start of the sub if you want to place well.

So, to recap, instead of the roughly 90-120 minutes of grind down right now, it would be 4 freaking hours in a row if you want placement. This is not an improvement.

For progression
Current system: Same thing, 1 clear every 8 hour + grind down. That gives you the optimal amount of points. If you don't care about placement, don't bother doing this. You do not have to do this. This overshots the top progression by a ton of points as I mentionned.

The nodes only lose something like 20% value per clear if you don't wait, you can do you your clears whenever you pretty much want and you'll still reach top prog.

New system: Nodes won't lose value until the 4th clear, then they take 24h to replenish to 100%. What exactly do you gain with this?

sinnerjfl

Sluggo wrote:

I can't speak for everyone's bracket, but in my bracket with the TA Hulk rewards, I did 6 clears a day whenever I felt like it and finished top 50. It seemed clear most people in that particular bracket said "screw this, I'm not grindiing out 6 clears to start each sub", and only the most hardcore going for T10 went that route.

Is it possible my bracket was the exception and not the rule? Maybe? I don't know. But I do know I like not being locked into playing at specific times each day. I agree you don't have to hit the timers exactly on the nose to place well, but I'd completely disagree that you can be completely indifferent to them to place well, certainly not to the extent you can under the test system.

I'll say this: if doing 4-6 clears at the start of a sub is only necessary if you're going for T10, I say, let those people knock themselves out. But if that's required for top 100, then it's too much. It hasn't been the case in any of my test brackets so far, but apparently it has been for others. I say, let them continue to test and see how it plays out.

You clearly aren't in the brackets me and several other veterans are placed in (the better you do, you are placed in brackets with people who are doing good as well, you end up with a lot of competitive people). It's already not easy going for placement with the 8h timer, I cannot imagine the nightmare it would be under these test systems.

Maybe you don't get it right now, but when you start getting put in competitive brackets, it's actually time consuming at the moment going for placement. So far all the tests they have run I have placed terribly because I refuse to do like 15 clears or playing for 6 hours straight.

This change won't affect most people but it will certainly have an impact for those of us going for placement.

Sluggo

sinnerjfl wrote:

Maybe you don't get it right now, but when you start getting put in competitive brackets, it's actually time consuming at the moment going for placement. So far all the tests they have run I have placed terribly because I refuse to do like 15 clears or playing for 6 hours straight.

FWIW, I typically play in S4v, have hit max progression and top 30-60 in almost every event since LTs were introduced, and haven't seen anything resembling a noob/beginner bracket in 9 months. I feel I've got a pretty good idea what competitive brackets look like, but also do what I can to find friendlier brackets without sacrificing max progression.

dr tinykittylove

I am tinykitty, and I DO NOT APPROVE THIS TINYKITTY.

TheOncomingStorm

In all seriousness, I give mpq credit. It took a lot of tries, but they've finally figured out what they should have done from the beginning of the first test of these pve scaling.

My only wish is that they had started there and we're now making improvements on this new pve scaling system. We probably have another 2-3 tests until they realize what players have been saying for months. The only question is if they'll continue to improve pve until we finally reach that point.

*fingers crossed*

TheOncomingStorm

Leadggb wrote:

These all sound like great changes to the new system.

However, it is still advantageous to NOT level up your roster for PVE. You face easier opponents, and get the same rewards. You also get put into a weaker bracket, giving you greater rewards for less effort. Fundamentally, I would think players shouldn't be punished for progressing through the game.

As your opponents scale up, making each match more difficult, the rewards for beating them should also increase.

Competitive PVE is PVP, and the current rewards system is leftover from the 3* meta. The rewards system needs a complete revamp. (IMO to 100% progression based, but also with an alliance progression like in boss events.)

Is there any plan to address these issues?

Players have pointed to these for a long time. I don't think Demiurge_Anthony will address these because they're not Germaine to the new pve format or test, but I'm interested in seeing if he does.

Quebbster

I Think there's potential in the new system, and moving to four plays Before starting the recharge is a step in the right direction IMO. I'm looking forward to trying this out.

WEBGAS

Sluggo wrote:

I'm cautiously optimistic about these changes.

First off, I'm a huge fan of dumping the 8-hour refresh timers. Being able to play whenever I want instead of being locked into 8-hour cycles was the best thing about these tests, so I'm glad that's continuing.

Feeling compelled to do 6 clears a day felt like extra work for the same rewards, so lowering the number to 4 clears feels better ... theoretically. I wonder how many more people will feel compelled to do all 4 clears right at the start of each sub, and if that in turn causes more people to try and keep pace, but I think that's something you can't know for sure until you test it.

Going back to some trivial nodes is also a plus. Every node doesn't have to be a health-draining challenge. This is ultimately a match-3 game, so you'd like to have at least a few casual-friendly fights each day.

If nothing else, these changes suggest the devs are listening and trying, so that's a plus. Bring it on!

One last change could be the final improvement : ADD PROGRESSION REWARDS ONLY! over the score for 25cp put 3 others limit scores each one worth a cover + 1 cover for progression alliance reward
just like in Civil War, Ultron & Galactus events....This is what the majority of us is asking for

Polares

Quebbster wrote:

I Think there's potential in the new system, and moving to four plays Before starting the recharge is a step in the right direction IMO. I'm looking forward to trying this out.

Yeah I agree with this.

I still think they way to go would be to remove placement and put more prices in the progression rewards BUT at least going from 6 to 4 is a big improvement. Now make the number of clears needed to go from full point to 20 just 4 and that will leave a system quite similar to the previous one but without the watch.

Difficulty needs to grow a bit for 94s and 166s teams, with this new format they have the easiest time of all players, last time it got easier for 4s and 5s teams but it got even easier for those teams. The game NEEDS to get easier as you get stronger teams, not the other way around.

Daiches

Still gung ho about the whole play-in-a-faint-block-straight system, huh?

4 clears is at least better than 7, but it's still bad. Why can't we just keep the 8h system that works perfectly for everyone? The t10 players only have one grind to do and the progression players can still hit their 4 out of 7 hits whenever they want to get the CP.

Will the point decrease be going back to 1 or stop at 20 like previous tests? I need to know if I will be forced play the easy nodes nonstop 24/7 to get the best results

Also can you clarify the "decreasing points over 24h" part? That seems to be the opposite of the points regenerating over 24h like previous test or even the standard situation? Does it mean that who ever smashes the nodes the most the fastest wins?