Story Difficulty Scaling - New Test: Meet Rocket & Groot
Comments
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I liked almost everything about this change, with the exception of how brutal placement rewards are going to be.
The progression was easy enough to obtain, which I think is a good thing to reward replay.
The levels of the enemies never got crazy, though I must admit that IronLady and boosted RHulk made a huge difference to how easy those nodes were.
The level 15 node was way too trivial for my roster, even after max replays. To prevent cheesing the trivial nodes for 20 points apiece, those need to either continue to scale up endlessly or trivial nodes need to lock after all rewards are obtained.
I have to say, of all of the tests, this one has been the most fun to play. I spent about three hours straight playing the clears and the reclears. I played around with my roster more than normal, and I had a ton of fun using IronLady with 2Storm. There's nothing like a 30 AP lightning strike on a board full of charged tiles.
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Now that my bracket is completed, I really liked this test.
I usually finish 30-60th in vet brackets, so the main question I had going in was, how many people will actually do 4x marathon clears and 20-point grinds? Will that become the new normal for "everyone"? Because I wanted no part of that.
Thankfully, it wasn't a problem. I was in the same s2v bracket as several people here, played whenever I felt like it (I typically wouldn't finish my first four clears until 8-10 hours in), never grinded any 20-point nodes, and still finished t50 every day and 30th overall. It seemed about 20-25 people were doing optimal grinds, and everyone else played at their own pace. So maintaining my usual placement while having more flexibility schedule-wise gets a big thumbs up from me.
I also liked the scaling. I'm happy to have "easy" nodes back, so I can test out new character combos or just shut my brain off for a few matches each day. I thought the essential/hard nodes started at reasonable levels, and while they got tougher by the 6th or 7th clear, I didn't find that unreasonable. I've been dealing with the 5* scaling problem for nine months, so this change can't happen fast enough for me.
I love where they put max progression for this event, and could only hope that would become the norm going forward. I hit 64k for the event, so 30k was trivial. (And, leaves a huge ceiling to move placement rewards to progression rewards if they wanted.)
Ultimately, I think this system would result in tougher grinding for the top 2-3% of the playerbase, but would be a solid improvement for the other 97%. I don't have a solution for that top group, because as long as there are placement rewards, I think they're going to grind nodes into dust no matter where you move the goalposts. So in lieu of ditching placement rewards altogether (which I think most people here agree is the proper solution), I'd be happy to see this system replace the current one sooner than later.0 -
Sluggo wrote:Now that my bracket is completed, I really liked this test.
I usually finish 30-60th in vet brackets, so the main question I had going in was, how many people will actually do 4x marathon clears and 20-point grinds? Will that become the new normal for "everyone"? Because I wanted no part of that.
Thankfully, it wasn't a problem. I was in the same s2v bracket as several people here, played whenever I felt like it (I typically wouldn't finish my first four clears until 8-10 hours in), never grinded any 20-point nodes, and still finished t50 every day and 30th overall. It seemed about 20-25 people were doing optimal grinds, and everyone else played at their own pace. So maintaining my usual placement while having more flexibility schedule-wise gets a big thumbs up from me.
I also liked the scaling. I'm happy to have "easy" nodes back, so I can test out new character combos or just shut my brain off for a few matches each day. I thought the essential/hard nodes started at reasonable levels, and while they got tougher by the 6th or 7th clear, I didn't find that unreasonable. I've been dealing with the 5* scaling problem for nine months, so this change can't happen fast enough for me.
Ultimately, I think this system would result in tougher grinding for the top 2-3% of the playerbase, but would be a solid improvement for the other 97%. I don't have a solution for that top group, because as long as there are placement rewards, I think they're going to grind nodes into dust no matter where you move the goalposts. So in lieu of ditching placement rewards altogether (which I think most people here agree is the proper solution), I'd be happy to see this system replace the current one sooner than later.
Yep, of course that the top 50 wouldn't inflict upon themselves the tedium of grinding a 20 point node just to get one more additional QS. Besides, if they are top 50, chances are that they are not even playing optimally so if they really wanted QS, playing optimally would be a better proposition than grinding a 20 point node. On the other hand, the people going for the top 10 and the 4* covers did have to grind those nodes to dust. For example, I'm in slice 5 and I have had to grind 20 points to remain top 10. I don't want to grind any more 20s but I have no way of knowing if other people are doing it. If they are and I don't do it, by the time I do the last end of sub's grind, it will be too late to fix it and I'll be out of the top 10. I simply cannot risk it.0 -
I liked the points dropping after 4 clears instead of 6 and progression seemed really reasonable at 30k points. The difficulty in the first half of each sub was perfect but on the back half it still got too difficult too quickly for my roster level so that needs dialed back. One glaring problem- once I got my 25 CP I did not play even one more match. I was top 200 so there were no prizes left worth playing for. The only prizes in PvE that mean anything to me are top 10 placement and then of course the 25 CP. It is way beyond time for more and better rewards. I got into The Simulator after I finished and cleared a ton more iso and got 50 hp, much better rewards than if I had continued slogging through PvE.0
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Pros:
- scaling feels much more in line with the old system, with the low level nodes being a low stress start to each event and the highest level ones being challenging but not frustrating.
- At slightly under two full sub clears (7/7 for every node, no extra grinding) attaining the final progression reward was FAR less stressful than I think it's ever been
- level increase capping out after 4 clears per node works better than I think anyone expected
Cons:
- Ultimately, the system is still placement driven, and thus attaining any of the 4* rewards requires an absurd amount of grinding and scheduling ones week around a mobile game even more than with the old system. PvE should be exactly that; player versus environment. Not competitive player vs environment. Until this changes, any new iteration of the PvE system is going to be a source of frustration for probably the majority of players.
Overall it's a solid improvement over the old system and the two previous tries at this new model, but being tied to the core idea of PvE that everyone is competing for ultimately means that aside from easier 25 CP per event, this is still going to be very frustrating.0 -
Pylgrim wrote:Sluggo wrote:Now that my bracket is completed, I really liked this test.
I usually finish 30-60th in vet brackets, so the main question I had going in was, how many people will actually do 4x marathon clears and 20-point grinds? Will that become the new normal for "everyone"? Because I wanted no part of that.
Thankfully, it wasn't a problem. I was in the same s2v bracket as several people here, played whenever I felt like it (I typically wouldn't finish my first four clears until 8-10 hours in), never grinded any 20-point nodes, and still finished t50 every day and 30th overall. It seemed about 20-25 people were doing optimal grinds, and everyone else played at their own pace. So maintaining my usual placement while having more flexibility schedule-wise gets a big thumbs up from me.
I also liked the scaling. I'm happy to have "easy" nodes back, so I can test out new character combos or just shut my brain off for a few matches each day. I thought the essential/hard nodes started at reasonable levels, and while they got tougher by the 6th or 7th clear, I didn't find that unreasonable. I've been dealing with the 5* scaling problem for nine months, so this change can't happen fast enough for me.
Ultimately, I think this system would result in tougher grinding for the top 2-3% of the playerbase, but would be a solid improvement for the other 97%. I don't have a solution for that top group, because as long as there are placement rewards, I think they're going to grind nodes into dust no matter where you move the goalposts. So in lieu of ditching placement rewards altogether (which I think most people here agree is the proper solution), I'd be happy to see this system replace the current one sooner than later.
Yep, of course that the top 50 wouldn't inflict upon themselves the tedium of grinding a 20 point node just to get one more additional QS. Besides, if they are top 50, chances are that they are not even playing optimally so if they really wanted QS, playing optimally would be a better proposition than grinding a 20 point node. On the other hand, the people going for the top 10 and the 4* covers did have to grind those nodes to dust. For example, I'm in slice 5 and I have had to grind 20 points to remain top 10. I don't want to grind any more 20s but I have no way of knowing if other people are doing it. If they are and I don't do it, by the time I do the last end of sub's grind, it will be too late to fix it and I'll be out of the top 10. I simply cannot risk it.
Top 10 will always entail putting in more effort than the other 99% of the bracket. While there is some difference in competition between brackets it just makes sense that the top 1% puts in more time and effort. In my vet bracket top 10 means at least 2.2x times max progression (still going in slice 5). Top 50 is looking like roughly 1.8x top progression. The difference is significant, particularly considering that some of that comes from farming points 20 at a pop. If the reward matters enough to you to make those extra clears happen then clearly you wanted the reward enough to justify the effort. If not the top ten place will not evaporate, it will simply go to someone else. Unless every single player who plays the game quit the same day there will always be some who decide to put in the extra time to make top 10. Or top 50/100/200 etc. Simply because the bar moves as to how that is decided doesn't mean that someone won't get those placement rewards.
For me the effort is not worth the reward. I'll be ending tonight somewhere in the top 100 without one of the essentials. I tried grinding the 20 point node but it was so boring I quickly gave up trying to do that. Anyone who had the patience to make that happen deserves the extra covers.0 -
Hi guys.
Just want to give my feedback regarding the new PVE System. My boss has told me to keep things short and to the point. Here goes.-
I don't like the 24 hour timer after 4 rounds -
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in previous normal pve's i could join late to a shard, grind the heck out of it and easily place t10-25. this system will not benefit those players so
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I think its time to revisit the rewards system. With a shift to a 4* meta the rate the current game rewards are very disengaging and not changing will drive lots of long term folk away as it becomes a poor customer experience being rewarded a couple tiers lower than the best characters.
I wanted to provide more feedback but then felt, you don't really read the opinions on the forums because its such a vocal minority. Or is it?
Did I mention I think its time to shift away from competitive PVE?0 -
Played this game for the first time in months. I probably was placed in an easy bracket, that said, here are my thoughts.
I loved the 4 clear and forget for the day. Many have complained it didn't give enough to do, but I liked being able to do other things and not be tied down to pve all day long.
If 24 hours is too long, 12 hours will still be tolerable for me (I really dig emphasis on casual play for PvE).
I think 4 clears to completion is the best thing ever. I hated clearing 6 times per node and it took me hours to grind down everything. Under this format, I could finish everything, clear it 4 times in an hour. It was marvelous. An actual gaming session that felt like a gaming session and not a part time job. I have no idea what these nutjobs are thinking wanting 5 or 6 clears to stay. 4 is excellent. Keep it there please. Playing a mobile game shouldn't take longer to complete than most sessions in console games would. If anyone wants to sit staring at their phone for 5-6 hours straight tediously attacking the same node for 20 points a hit, let them. Making the full clear take fewer hits does not change that. They would've done the same if it were 6 clears.
I suppose the ranking system will always be an issue no matter what. I can't really comment on it since I was placed in an easy bracket and I easily placed first in the event only investing about an hour's worth of effort every day. I don't expect this to be the case in the veteran's bracket, but I think I can still be satisfied being able to do progression rewards and whatever full clears would afford me. I felt pretty happy overall with these changes and I hope most of these make it through long term. If not, I'll probably quit again and find something else to do that isn't so time consuming.0 -
I finished 4th with 84k points (and top 1 alliance).
I like:
- fixed nodes scalling (beating a node doesn't increase scalling of other nodes)
- beating a node 8 times is enough to get all points from it (up to 20 points grinding)
- scalling was set well for me - it wasn't really easy, I needed to think about teams and use health packs, but it also wasn't to hard
- return of easy nodes - i can try different heroes from my 101 characters roster (missing only 5* captain)
I don't like:
- optimal play (on 24 hour sub) is: beat all nodes 4 times, have 20+ hours free, beat all node 4 times and imediately beat new nodes 4 times. This reduces optimal play to just one long playing session. I would like to play whenever I have free time and with the same overall time investment have the chance for the same rewards.
I hate:
- 20 points minimum of nodes. I was in, as I know, the most competitive bracket where top 1 was 98k points and 84k points were needed for top5. Its not fun to repeat the same node for hours just to have a chance to get top 5 reward (I needed blue cyclops cover to finish him)
For me, the best format would be progression based only. I'm not so optimistic to think that D3 would give you all rewards at the current progression levels. But something like the following would be nice:
- beat all nodes 9 times - enough points to get as progression all rewards that now are given to 1st place / top 2 (old char / new release)
- beat all nodes 8+ times - enough points to get as progression all rewards that now are given to top 5 / top 10
- beat all nodes 7+ times - enough points to get as progression all rewards that now are given to top 10 / top 20
and similarly for other rankings.
Nodes could have 9 repeats for full points and than be locked (or start with less possible repeats and every 6 or 8 hours one is added to a maximum 9).
Basically, for the same effort we would get the same rewards but time constraint and luck on competitive/noncompetitive bracket would be eliminated. As well, time slices would not be needed.
For alliances there are two possibilities
- looking at results of previous events set a progression accordingly (points enough for top 2 placement in current format should be enough to the same rewards as progression in suggested format, etc.) and similarly as in boss events lock players to a alliance where they start the event
- let it be competitive but in case of a tie give all the better rewards. E.g. 5 teams have all members beaten all nodes 9 times - they are ranked 1-5th and all get top 1 reward. And a team right after them is ranked 6th and gets appropriate rewards for 6th place.0 -
I just started playing the game again on my tablet, so I was placed in an easy bracket. I may have a different opinion on this if I would of been in a tougher bracket. I used to play this game two years ago on Steam, however I didn't try this test event on my Steam account, which has a way better roster than my tablet account.
In the easy bracket, I liked it. I could hit the game hard, if I wanted to, or I could play here and there throughout the day and still rank relatively high, since no rubber-banding. I also like how playing the beginning missions didn't make the later missions harder, so I could jump around or use my weaker characters on early missions while my main team healed.
However, I agree with the whole 20 point minimum complaint everyone else had with this event. Even in my easy bracket, there were two players with awesome rosters who just ran away with 1st and 2nd place every time. My sob story about it is hidden below, if you are bored enough to read it.I was #1, overall, in the event when there was 2 hours left. I had a pretty comfortable lead of about 1k points, and this is without grinding 20 point battles. On this new account, my roster isn't good enough to grind the 20 point battles quick enough to make it worth it. Even the easiest 20 point mission would of still took me about 3-5 minutes to complete and would of hurt my team to where I would of had to use medpacks after every 3 or 4 times. Unless, of course, I got really lucky with a lot of critical matches and matching all countdown titles before they denoted. Which, needless to say, doesn't happen often.I say that if you make this new scaling permanent then please either make missions drop to 1 (or even 0) points after so long. Either that or group players of similar rosters, and character levels, with one another in the brackets to where everyone will have to take the same amount of effort to grind +20 battles. Other than that, I loved this new scaling and wouldn't mind if it became the new norm for PvE events.
So, anyways, there I was... Sitting #1, feeling all proud of myself. When in the last hour I notice I was #3. OK fine. I check the boards expecting to see #1 and 2 a few hundred points ahead of me. NOPE! #1 3k points ahead of me and #2 was 2k points. I look at both of these player's rosters and they have awesome rosters with level 255 5* characters and highly leveled 3 and 2-star champion characters. "5-star characters!? What the hell is a champion character!?" I thought (again, I haven't played this game in nearly two years). So I guess these guys were just grinding these 20-point matches in seconds, with their powerful characters as my dreams of instantly having a tricolor powered Cyclopes vanished. Pretty disappointing.
I'll give you a second here to dry your eyes before continuing with the rest of my post.
However, I agree with what a lot of other people say; Competitive PvE is kind of silly. Just take it out and add more/beef up progression rewards.0 -
Harrrr the two changes that the devs made (4 hits to unlock timer and return of trivial nodes) were the exact two requests that I made in the last test! So I guess the devs are listening! To me at least.
I have issues, but not for those two points.
The change in timer meant I could spend a few hours straight to play the game in one go, and that means I actually am able to focus on work (or other games!) for the rest of the day. I definitely played less compared to the previous test as I needed to hit the nodes 8 times vs 11 for the previous run. The difficulty jump was also comfortable and acceptable.
Unfortunately I really wanted that Cyclops cover, and unfortunately there were no time slots (at this time) that gave me two hours before and two hours after to play comfortably. I picked slice 2, which ends at 12 am, and that means I start playing at 10 pm and finish the next subevent at around 1.30 am to unlock the nodes. Not healthy. On hindsight picking slice 1 that ends at 7 pm would be healthier, but I then needed to grind earlier because 5-7 is travel time. Choosing the right timeslot is a whole different ballgame though, so I think that's a separate issue to discuss. Regardless, I'm okay with the reduced amount of time needed to hit optimal points.
I also would like to thank the devs for the return of trivial nodes. I am very, very, very happy that my 0/1/0 5* Cap and 2/0/0 5* IM have some use as I grinded the easy 3 nodes with minimal difficulty. I however have to admit that on day 4, I had a few hours to spare, and spent 7-10 pm in front of the TV while mindlessly grinding the trivial nodes for the 20 points. At that point I was at 15th place, and the mindless grind gave me around 3000 points and by 10 pm I was at 11th place. By finishing the rest of the nodes, I ended up 7th overall and won a lovely red cover for Cyclops (thank you!).
I'm in two minds over the 20 point node minimum grind. Without me grinding the nodes, I had serious doubt I could have jumped into the top 10 (at 7th place I was merely 2000 points ahead of 11th). Having nodes to grind gave me the opportunity to score a higher placing than I would have if I could not grind. On the other hand, under what reasonable expectation is there for people to spend hours on hitting the same trivial nodes over and over again just to score higher. I suppose if there were no grinds, than the top 10 would comprise of the 10 people who could hit the nodes optimally first, and there's no opportunity to change that until the next subevent.
In conclusion, if this is the system that the devs want to proceed, then apart from a few tweaks on the grind portion, I am mostly okay with it. I'd like to echo the many wishes for a non-competitive gameplay environment, but until the devs are ready for that transition, then this is a system I can tolerate.0 -
Finished last night.
Scaling was great, starting easy and only requiring health packs and bringing on the well-known combos after clearing the difficult nodes some times. For reference, my stronger characters were 255 Silver Surfer (1 red cover) and championed, boosted Blade, Psylocke and Hood (think the fifth strongest was non-boosted 175 Black Widow).
I can only play during a certain time of the day, so I can never play optimally. With this format, the difference between someone starting the counter during the first hour and then grinding during the last, and someone who does it all at once, is not that much. I could reach the progression with one sub left, and finished top 100 without reducing all nodes to 20.
About competitive play, well, you could move the covers to the progression, and replace them in the top player rewards with 500, 1500 and 5000 ISO-8, so players don't feel they "need" to chase the top of the table, but still get a little, useful bonus if they decide to do so.0 -
Only change needed is to lock trivial nodes when they are at 20 points or to make them continue to scale forever.
With some 6-9 cover five stars, that first node was "make four matches, win, and get 20 points."
Just make the first three nodes ALWAYS increment the level when beating them. Increment should be exponentially curved rather than flat.
Yes, you will get some grinding, which is healthy and necessary to reward replay and to prevent optimal timing play as the only way to win. However, you won't see the same nodes hit 200+ times.
Once the trivial nodes scale higher than the hard nodes, people will switch over to those nodes for grinding. However, no one has the health packs to grind the hard nodes forever, and the time it takes to win will be more than four quick matches.0 -
My roster is level 455 phoenix, 450 surfer, 435 OML, all 3* championed, over 20 4*s champion.
Bit of feedback on this test run:
- 6 of the the top 10 players in my bracket are 3* tier rosters
- 1 of the the top 10 is a 2* tier roster
- 2 of the top top 10 are 4* tier rosters
- 1 of the top top is has a single strong 5* (OML level 450)
Difficulty:
- Loved the return of trivial nodes.
- Most nodes feel 'good' in terms of challenge EXCEPT feeder nodes (goons feeding AP to characters). These nodes put my 5*'s to the test and led to party wipes/retreats in a situation where I had access to my best characters. In other PvE events that won't always be the case.
- Muscle goons feel broken. They simply have too much health for the threat they pose. When combined with other goons they can be managed but in a team with other characters taking turns and generating AP they are unfair with my scaling. These goons need less Health to reflect how deadly they are..make them like Iron Fist, not like Hulkbuster.
Comments:
- Letting players grind trivial nodes for 20 points is silly. There are plenty of solutions to consider which include reducing their value to 1 point or increasing those node levels to match the hard ones as of clear 8 onwards.
- The time to do a clear is definitely up from regular test PvE's and it really feels like there should better node rewards to compensate.
- I put in my routine top 20 to top 30 effort for typical PvE's and finished rank 53 with 64396 points (over double the progression limit). This isn't a complaint but rather just illustrating how things have changed with the new format.
- Given the choice I still feel the old format is superior, but Test 4 shows we are nearing a point where the changes are tolerable. If fact scaling the node rewards for the added grind would potentially turn the tides in favour of the new system without any other modifications.0 -
-Rewards are sub par. Getting a vault token and pulling 2* characters 7 times sucks. Sub rewards need upgrading, they are weak. Top 2 gets x2 vault token, 2k ISO, 2CP and 100 HP...that should be top 50, not 1/2.
-My event winner did 20 point nodes minium 1500x, and from other sub leaders I've seen, that's rather low. Maybe there are people grinding out 20 point nodes for 12 hours a day, 3 straight days, but I'm more inclined to believe Doom bots are doing the leg work.
-30,000 gets you 25 CP, 70,000 gets you 9th place in the event. Obvious math says that's more than double what's needed for top reward, yet only good for 9th place in a mid level bracket. This is a two-fold complaint; why do rewards stop at all when there are infinite points available, and why promote a system that caters to people who have no self control? Point totals approaching 100k for a 3 day event in which 30k is needed for top reward is outrageous. Even the Doom bots are getting fatigued at that rate.0 -
I think it would work well if they eliminated the 20 point grind, change timer to 12 hours, and start decreasing points after 3 clears.0
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spatenfloot wrote:I think it would work well if they eliminated the 20 point grind, change timer to 12 hours, and start decreasing points after 3 clears.
It would work well if they eleminate every timer, make it progression only, no pvp-aspect anymore. And then no one will complaint about optimal play with timers to get in t100 or t50 or higher and no one has a reason to accuse the 20-point-grinder. And you need no luck with your bracket you joined, because there is none.0 -
tizian2015 wrote:spatenfloot wrote:I think it would work well if they eliminated the 20 point grind, change timer to 12 hours, and start decreasing points after 3 clears.
It would work well if they eleminate every timer, make it progression only, no pvp-aspect anymore. And then no one will complaint about optimal play with timers to get in t100 or t50 or higher and no one has a reason to accuse the 20-point-grinder. And you need no luck with your bracket you joined, because there is none.
Trust me, no matter what they implement people will complain. If they go to an all progression model people will complain because progression for the highest awards will be gated behind massive point totals to keep the drop rates the same as they are now. Imagine the uproar when people realize that in order to get the 4 star covers they have to hit every node 11 or 12 times or more. Which would be the case if they moved from the current competitive system to a progression only model, they have metrics that suggest that they don't want more than 1% of each bracket getting a single cover and 0.1% getting 3+ covers of the 4*s per event which is why only the top ten in a bracket of 1000 get those rewards now.
The devs truly can't win, best case scenario for them is to make the fewest possible people unhappy.0 -
revskip wrote:tizian2015 wrote:spatenfloot wrote:I think it would work well if they eliminated the 20 point grind, change timer to 12 hours, and start decreasing points after 3 clears.
It would work well if they eleminate every timer, make it progression only, no pvp-aspect anymore. And then no one will complaint about optimal play with timers to get in t100 or t50 or higher and no one has a reason to accuse the 20-point-grinder. And you need no luck with your bracket you joined, because there is none.
Trust me, no matter what they implement people will complain. If they go to an all progression model people will complain because progression for the highest awards will be gated behind massive point totals to keep the drop rates the same as they are now. Imagine the uproar when people realize that in order to get the 4 star covers they have to hit every node 11 or 12 times or more. Which would be the case if they moved from the current competitive system to a progression only model, they have metrics that suggest that they don't want more than 1% of each bracket getting a single cover and 0.1% getting 3+ covers of the 4*s per event which is why only the top ten in a bracket of 1000 get those rewards now.
The devs truly can't win, best case scenario for them is to make the fewest possible people unhappy.
Of course people will complain...we always do
But make pve progression only and ELIMINATE THE 20PTS......people wil get the top rewards playing at their own free time and according to their needs....you want the best rewards? You have to play more, but not depending on your luck with the bracket you joined or because you have been fool enough to grind 6hours the same trivial node over and over, farming the 20 points it gives you 0
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