PVE Scaling Feedback & New Test : Prodigal Sun
Comments
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dr tinykittylove wrote:I was hopping around extremely casual public alliances for fun during the off season. Didn't see much chat in those, apart from some week old comments expressing confusion over the lack of a countdown after hitting nodes, and wondering why everything was suddenly so hard.
I don't think the really casual players have figured out they were supposed to lose yet...
You're not going to see much complaining about everything being super hard this time around; I can't remember ever seeing an event where the toughest fight starts 180 levels lower than my A team.0 -
CrookedKnight wrote:dr tinykittylove wrote:I was hopping around extremely casual public alliances for fun during the off season. Didn't see much chat in those, apart from some week old comments expressing confusion over the lack of a countdown after hitting nodes, and wondering why everything was suddenly so hard.
I don't think the really casual players have figured out they were supposed to lose yet...
You're not going to see much complaining about everything being super hard this time around; I can't remember ever seeing an event where the toughest fight starts 180 levels lower than my A team.
That's good to hear... still feeling very unmotivated after all the testing. The new Howard event was cute, but I couldn't bring myself to play past progression. Especially on nodes that only had crit boosts and 70 iso rewards left.
Wondering what is the minimum number of clears per sub to hit full progression for prodigal sun...0 -
Bowgentle wrote:
Lol.CrookedKnight wrote:The rewards that were removed to make it a total of four were 100, 100 and 70 ISO. They have the once-standard set of 250 ISO, 500 ISO, critical boosts, and CP.
Wonder if they claim that it was a "mistake" again.
What kind of twisted mind does it take to remove rewards and leave the critical boosts in there - after we've been griping about those for months?
My guess is it was intentionally put in to make sure some people could actually get the CP before people unlucky enough to not get it in the first two or three attempts had their node scale itself into an unfinishable level.
If so, as part of the population who doesn't have time in his life to nor want to do seven clears of the hardest nodes, I do appreciate that it was a problem they're considering.
That said, I absolutely empathize with the argument on the others side. While grinding for CP is a problem, this solution is about the most unimaginative and lazy ways to solve it. Don't remove thousands of ISO from the event for people who want that. Just give the CP first. Simple solution everyone wins. Oh, but I suppose that goes against the core design philosophy. "You're supposed to lose!"
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so, is there a new strategy for farming? no regard to placement, only getting to green checks.
instead of doing 'clears' as time allows (playing each node once). it might be better to mine a node to the timer, and move to another node. I mean open them all up at once, but then mine them out hardest to easiest. play until you're low on health packs or run out of time. let things recharge. mine more later. recharge. rinse/repeat. this way you could start with a lesser team, but might need to increase your team composition by the end. you could use different combos at each sitting. otherwise by the end, you may need your A team for the entire run? not sure but i'll probably tinker with that.
I usually reliable finish t50 in each sub but that might be more difficult here because I have no desire to attempt optimal with this setup. the scaling looks ok from what others have posted. was worried about hb and rulk boosted but at least they work well together. need the iso, so i'll play it. as a farmer who focusses on the larger iso bundles and cp, I welcome the 4 stack in the cp nodes - hate when they take a 7th play to get the 500iso or cp.
any word on rubberbanding?0 -
Hello all,
The devs wanted to let everyone know about an unintended issue which should be fixed later today:-
"In the Prodigal Sun event, 2 nodes per chapter only had 4 rewards instead of 7. This has been fixed in Chapters 2 through 7 and will be part of today's daily Patch."
Apologies for the inconvenience. Thank you!0 -
"David wrote:Moore"]Hello all,
The devs wanted to let everyone know about an unintended issue which should be fixed later today:-
"In the Prodigal Sun event, 2 nodes per chapter only had 4 rewards instead of 7. This has been fixed in Chapters 2 through 7 and will be part of today's daily Patch."
Apologies for the inconvenience. Thank you!
The one good part of this test was a mistake. Of course!0 -
"David wrote:Moore"]Hello all,
The devs wanted to let everyone know about an unintended issue which should be fixed later today:-
"In the Prodigal Sun event, 2 nodes per chapter only had 4 rewards instead of 7. This has been fixed in Chapters 2 through 7 and will be part of today's daily Patch."
Apologies for the inconvenience. Thank you!
LOL
couldn't let that extra CP be too easy to get... or in too few clears...0 -
The feedback and "response" from the devs reminds me of a scene from Arrested Development:
Tobias: "You know, Mother Lucille, there’s a psychological concept known as denial that I believe you’re evincing. It’s when a thought is so hateful that the mind literally rejects it."
Lucille: "You are a worse psychiatrist than you are a son-in-law, and you will never get work as an actor because you have no talent."
*brief pause*
Tobias: "Well, if she’s not going to say anything, I certainly can’t help her."0 -
Ha! Was literally coming on to day that I liked the hardest nodes guaranteeing CP in 4 clears, then see that this will be taken away tomorrow. That sucks, but I will say that the scaling is better this time around. After 4 clears of the last node, enemies are 146. My boosted are 210. Very manageable. If they had left the 4 rewards on the CP nodes, I would be more satisfied. If the progression was lowered so that 3 clears would do it, I am on board. As it is, a bit left to be desired.0
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ive got buffed hb and rulk at 355 and 340, one other champed 4 and my best 5 is 270 7 covers.
initial node was lvl 94 vs 190 and 177 in tests 1 and 2 respectively. essentials were 148 158 and 167 down about 20 levels from previous tests. so at least in terms of initial scaling that part appears under control.
after one pass all nodes still read trivial and dont appear too onerous. under the old system the node difficulty (for non trivials) would have gone up as well based on smashing through anyway.
the only real test is how many full clears per sub will hit progressions and how will placement settle out given mr f and falcon as rewards.0 -
"David wrote:Moore"]Hello all,
The devs wanted to let everyone know about an unintended issue which should be fixed later today:-
"In the Prodigal Sun event, 2 nodes per chapter only had 4 rewards instead of 7. This has been fixed in Chapters 2 through 7 and will be part of today's daily Patch."
Apologies for the inconvenience. Thank you!
Something I picked up from this message.
We either get "Daily patches" or they call their sporadic patches a "daily patch" even when we don't have "daily" patches.
I am not sure how this is different from their updates besides with respect to software versioning numbers. Normally, patching will upgrade a software's maintenance version number, and updates upgrade their minor version number, although some places do it differently. Most software forms this pattern of Major.Minor.Maintenance.Build. In theory a patch fixes bugs, and updates give new features. 
So the hidden message we get from this is they have the infrastructure in place to fix bugs quickly, assuming they pay the overtime to get it done.
On another note, I think all of these recent PVE changes are designed solely and specifically so that the newest players have a higher chance of placing higher and getting more characters rammed down their throats, in hopes they buy more roster slots. Otherwise these changes mean more grinding for "everybody" and does not benefit the casual or veteran player.
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Have you ever noticed that when you load up the game around or sometime after 5 PM Eastern, you'll see the title screen with a "Loading 0%" message that gradually (or quickly) goes up to 100%? That's the daily patch. It's only useful for relatively minor data pushes, like updating character art or changes to the token pool, but apparently node rewards fall under that umbrella.0
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Well i make few matches and ... "easy" missions begin to more than double the old missions, combat against starter enemies with 4.000/5,000 hp instead 3,000MAX enemies becomes boring, a lot boring and is not funny; for that i do not waste chars and go to the pvp getting only the CP and save some points for 300-400 heroic token on PVE.
I do not understand the determination to change something that very few have complained and with each new test is left worse.0 -
I am tired of having to do 5+ clears per sub to reach top progression. Quit moving the goalposts.0
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SnowcaTT wrote:All right, time to test! Champed HB, nearly max Rhulk, and a 300 5* (so three 300+).
Loaner node 2: didn't see what levels I was using or against - but the loaner team almost wiped.
Node 1: "trivial" - 155 Sniper, 156 Lieutenant, 156 soldier. A bit high, but sometimes they are to unlock subs.
Sub Node 1 trivial: 87/87/88 goons. (+9 after clear, 96/97/97)
Sub Node 2 trivial: 101/101/102 (+10 after first clear, +11 after 2nd clear)
Sub Node 3 trivial: 117/117/117 (+12 after a clear)
Sub Node 4 trivial: 117/117/117 (+12 after a clear. First non-goon, had to deal with Sentry first - muscle tommy gun means -2000 for entire team here first time through.)
Sub Node 5 trivial: 135/135/136 (+14 after a clear)
Sub Node 6 trivial: 156/156/157 Pun (+16 after a clear)
Sub Node 7 trivial: 180/180/181 Pun (+18/19 after a clear, this is the CP node)
Essential 1 trivial (Ares): 139/139/140 (+14 after a clear)
Essential 2 trivial (ock): 147/148/148 (+15 after a clear)
Essential 3 trivial (Rhulk): 156/156/157 (+16 after a clear)
Out of curiosity, what teams were you using for your clears? My max boosted character is ~level 200 and my trivial nodes started at ~level 45-50 (each successive node went up 10-11 levels). I was using a team of Level 90 2/1/0 X-23, Level 94 1/2/1 Thoress and Level 85 booster 1* Storm. After each trivial node, they only scaled up half as much as you described.
I'm guessing that this is because my roster is so much less developed than yours, but i wanted to point it out just in case they scaled nodes based on the "power level" of the team you used to clear (this is unlikely, I admit, but I thought I'd throw it out there just in case it mattered).
All in all, this is better than the previous test events where only the boosted A team (or Steve/IM40 against goons) had any hope of winning. I would still prefer if the 24 hour timer started after three clears instead of six. Even though I never play optimally, if there were fewer maximum points available, it would be harder to justify such a higher progression total...0 -
My thoughts so far.
It is a step in the right direction, but it losses focus on several aspects such as fun and time. The 'trivial' nodes are at more reasonable levels than the previous tests, but since they increase per clear there still isn't enough of a drop for those nodes, they become too high for our mid or low tier characters (at least for me) there is absolutely nothing wrong with them being as low level as they were under the older system. Another question is why do they have to scale at all? Does that add to the fun?
Next, why did the points needed for progression get moved higher? Does it make the game more fun by requiring players to play longer?
I also wonder why we need 7 clears? Why not four, and we could use better rewards...well except for that amazing critical boost....sarcasm.
On a side note, the system for competition needs work, how is it fair that I earn 10,000 plus points more than an alliance member and he places in the top ten and I place 238? Why does it need to be competitive in the first place when we have PVP? Could we consider progression rewards instead?
Positive- no timer for points (except for the 7th time on each node)
Negatives- Scale still needs work but it is getting better.
Playing the same node 7 times is too much.
Better rewards than what we get now (critical boost is almost a slap in the face for beating some nodes).
The scaling is still a little too high (it may not seem bad at first but after the goon nodes it adds too much difficulty).
That are my thoughts for now. I will explore it more and update later.0 -
I'm a 5* tier player with Surfer and Phoenix at 452 and OML at 435.
I also have all 3*'s championed and 19 4*'s championed.
PVE Test 1 on the 7th clear had a goon node that looked like this...
Level 473 goons including:
- Konran at 62,146 health
- Gorgan at 74.626 health
- Wolverine at 57,075 health
Total Health: 193,847
PvE Test 2 was very similar reducing the enemy levels by a measly 14.
PvE Test 3's toughest node "Crossfire" in sub one for it's 7th clear is as follows:
Level 422
- Thug at 33558 health and quick shot dealing 10487 damage.
- Punisher at 42787 health
- Hitman at 33558 health and Sniper Rifle dealing 20974 damage.
The comparisons here aren't entirely fair because these are mushy goons compared to the likes of Konran and Gorgan. In fact my level 404 muscle on the easier node already has 43817 health and creates strike tiles worth 2739 which completely melts my team in a bad enough board.
Observations
1) I'm REALLY happy to see goons are no longer scaled beyond regular enemies. Goons have become more threatening than actual superheroes and villains as their levels and health pools balloon. The scaling adjustment to them is welcome.
2) My 'easy' nodes are level 254 after the first clear. While this is genuinely easy it's still a grind that genuinely limits roster selection throughout PvE.
3) The entire sub is definitely more forgiving for my vet roster. Level 422 vs Level 473 is undeniably a big difference in health pools and will actually help make the event a more positive experience.
4) While things are easier I still don't 'feel' like my roster is giving me any kind of a competitive advantage. It's still way too early to make definitive claims here but once again the top 10 of my bracket is dominated by 3* tier rosters
9x *** rosters and 1x ** roster to be exact.
Not a single one of these players have a max covered 4 star.
Primary Issue - Lack of Rewards
Imagine logging into Diablo back in the day and getting a patch that doubles the health of all enemies, increases their damage but yields the same XP and drop rates.
Can you honestly believe that PLAYERS would respond well to this?
It's clear as day that increasing the time, difficulty and resources to complete something should result in increased rewards. Difficulty is part of the fun in MPQ but ONLY when the challenge feels rewarding.
When I say this I don't mean reward placement either. Making the event far more challenging for everyone just to reward the top 10, 20 or 50 players out of every 1000 won't cut it. We should feel like the added effort required to win a node is compensated through rewards for that node. The single best feedback out of these tests in my opinion has been the idea of reward scaling based on enemy levels (described in spoiler below).Simplified Example:
Level 40 node for 2* roster is worth 70 ISO. That same scaled node for my roster is going to be level 340 and should be worth 3 times more thus rewarding me with 210 ISO. When my node scales to level 440 it's now worth 280 ISO.
This just fixes so many problems.
- It rewards players for leveling their roster.
- It targets increased ISO to the players who need it most for higher tier characters.
- It doesn't devalue the natural progression or lower tier players by giving them so much ISO that they skip tiers to quickly.
Summary
I still much prefer the old pve system to any of the ones being tested. They have their problems but in the end it's just more fun and more rewarding relative to the any of the tests.
If we are to accept the general format changes being presented in these tests then it's clear that the reward system has to be revamped to keep players from burning out or outright quitting the mode out of play.0 -
ZootSax wrote:Out of curiosity, what teams were you using for your clears? My max boosted character is ~level 200 and my trivial nodes started at ~level 45-50 (each successive node went up 10-11 levels). I was using a team of Level 90 2/1/0 X-23, Level 94 1/2/1 Thoress and Level 85 booster 1* Storm. After each trivial node, they only scaled up half as much as you described.
I'm guessing that this is because my roster is so much less developed than yours, but i wanted to point it out just in case they scaled nodes based on the "power level" of the team you used to clear (this is unlikely, I admit, but I thought I'd throw it out there just in case it mattered).
All in all, this is better than the previous test events where only the boosted A team (or Steve/IM40 against goons) had any hope of winning. I would still prefer if the 24 hour timer started after three clears instead of six. Even though I never play optimally, if there were fewer maximum points available, it would be harder to justify such a higher progression total...
Used Cage/Fist/Blade for most of them (all champed). Went to Charlies Angels later on, none boosted but the ladies champed.
As I understand it, the scaling looks at your top characters and sets the difficulty based on that. So it saw my Champed HB as highest character, my 260 RHulk as 2nd highest character (next week buddy, next week), and my 300 Phoenix as 3rd character - set difficulty assuming I could/would use three 300+ level characters. Could be the amount of scaling was based on vet bracket as well?
I know there has been claims that they don't use the boosted levels to set scaling, but also many players have given evidence that it absolutely must take those levels into account.0 -
I have a championed HB and a championed RHulk and the nodes you are seeing at least gives me hope that I can actually play PVE. So far on the past 2 tests I have been so scaled out of my roster I could only use 3-5 characters. The issue will be how will the nodes look after 6 clears and that might be scarySnowcaTT wrote:All right, time to test! Champed HB, nearly max Rhulk, and a 300 5* (so three 300+).
Loaner node 2: didn't see what levels I was using or against - but the loaner team almost wiped.
Node 1: "trivial" - 155 Sniper, 156 Lieutenant, 156 soldier. A bit high, but sometimes they are to unlock subs.
Sub Node 1 trivial: 87/87/88 goons. (+9 after clear, 96/97/97)
Sub Node 2 trivial: 101/101/102 (+10 after first clear, +11 after 2nd clear)
Sub Node 3 trivial: 117/117/117 (+12 after a clear)
Sub Node 4 trivial: 117/117/117 (+12 after a clear. First non-goon, had to deal with Sentry first - muscle tommy gun means -2000 for entire team here first time through.)
Sub Node 5 trivial: 135/135/136 (+14 after a clear)
Sub Node 6 trivial: 156/156/157 Pun (+16 after a clear)
Sub Node 7 trivial: 180/180/181 Pun (+18/19 after a clear, this is the CP node)
Essential 1 trivial (Ares): 139/139/140 (+14 after a clear)
Essential 2 trivial (ock): 147/148/148 (+15 after a clear)
Essential 3 trivial (Rhulk): 156/156/157 (+16 after a clear)
Didn't full clear - looks like that +number is going up after each clear?
Like: well, it stats at lower level. I guess I could throw my entire roster at the nodes and beat them instead of just the biggest characters. Even the hardest nodes are easier to start with - I could read the whole story if that was my plan.
Dislike: The scaling. I get it, this is what the devs have planned and want to do. I don't like it - it makes my PVE style of play (quick for ISO run only) impossible. You cannot run these quickly or easily, they take a lot more time. Why would I want to invest lots more time for the same rewards?!?
What I will do with this style of PVE: um....I guess start them occasionally if they have the guaranteed character in the progression (Like Sentry/Hulk)? Do the waves if all rewards are guaranteed after one clear? Maybe -maybe- continue to try to bracket snipe new releases, but only if I have to play a very short amount of time (1 hour or less?)
What I won't do with this style of PVE: pretty much play it. I used to lightly play PVE to get the ISO and to the 3* progression. This just takes to much time, I won't bother with it.0
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