PVE Scaling Testing - Enemy Of The State (03/17/16)

GrumpySmurf1002

JVReal wrote:

Because I am also going for progression when it isn't out of reach. I also want my play time to provide me the most points possible every time that I do play. Why would I want less points for playing the same match? Because I don't want top 10? I have goals that are easier to reach when my nodes aren't devalued by a timer. With limited play time, each time I play I want max points. It's pretty simple.

You can get the progression with a play when you want mentality in the old system. I do it frequently.

You can even get it by just doing the final grind every sub (the 2 hour block).

In doing both of those, I stumble into top 20 a bunch. Bracket shopping helps.

pheregas

It may just be me, but I enjoy the timers. It's a good way to say, "Hey, you should really go do something else for 6-8 hours."

JVReal

Apparently I'm wrong for enjoying the event. I'm supposed to vehemently oppose it and disregard the fun that I experienced because of peer pressure.

Forget that I thought the scaling was perfect for my roster, forget that i actually felt better playing, forget that it was the funnest PVE I've participated in for a long time. Forget that, because according to forum experts, it's not logical for me to feel this way.

I defer to the forum to establish all my future opinions. I'll get back to you guys about what to have for lunch in about an hour... I like my sandwich I packed, but maybe that shouldn't be about my personal preference either. Perhaps I could be just as satisfied with "a single celled protein combined with synthetic aminos, vitamins, and minerals. Everything the body needs".

over_clocked

Just adding my meager voice. Didn't read the thread.

The event was horrible compared to the system we have now (8 hr refreshes and all).
The only highlight was going away from the timer and allowing players to hit the nodes when they want to. Still imperfect, still too competitive and with too much focus on timing and grinding close to sub end times.
Scaling was awful, trivial nodes should be trivial, not challenging the player to wipe despite a decent team (have a champed OML and a plethora of championed 4*s).
Raising the progression was bad. Not related to the test, but do something with wave nodes so that they always have rewards, please. They take more time than a non-wave node and should reward the player for the time spent, and points themselves are *not* reward enough and are *not* enticing enough, especially with the ridiculously high progression ceiling! In PvP, players at least get a minimum of 70 ISO from hitting a node that brings them no points.

Edit: I am likely biased but I do mosly like the current system. I think that if there's no way to forgo the timing issue completely, the timers should at least be increased to 12 hours as they used to be, 48 hour subs should have more than 7 rewards on nodes (but that's a nitpick). And yes, fix wave nodes, for the love of pasta and cheese.

El Satanno

I got a bug shortly after the event opened and I was locked out from playing the game at all for about a week. I did play a couple of the "easy" nodes before that, and I played the last day and a half a reasonable amount. I'm a PvP player, and I only play PvE competitively by accident; that is, when my sweeps for node rewards and the final progression end up placing me in a high position. I never play to actually win. Gave up on that long ago.

On the plus side, no timers after a single clear is good...kinda. It feels like a win, but if the final progression is going to rise by the same amount I'd rather just have the old 8-hour timers. I would really like it if 6 clears (or whatever number they choose before the timer starts) would eventually add up to the max progression. Because you know what? Competing in PvE pretty much sucks!

On the downside, the scaling. Ugh. I'm actually kinda close to calling myself a 5* player so I get that the scaling is not really geared to my level of play. And that is actually okay by me. My roster can handle the challenge, no problem. That's not the problem. There are several I have though. Have a list!

1. Clearing nodes takes way too long. In the time it would took me to clear even the easiest node once, I could have cleared the same node between five and seven times in the standard scale.
2. The rewards are the same, regardless of challenge. This is just plain obnoxious for the time investment. If every single node is going to take me upwards of 5 minutes to clear just once, I'm going to approach all PvE the same way I did the last day of this one: Once each, grind until the CoPs come in, and be done with it.
3. This is the biggest one, and a tearjerker: My 6 year-old son loves Marvel superheroes, and loves MPQ. (Remind me, and I'll post a video of him doing the animations of all the characters for you guys. Seriously, he does this.) Every morning before daycare and at night before bed, he asks me "Can I fight some mooks for you?" And I have always obliged him by letting him have fun grinding out those easy nodes with all his favorite characters. Not so much this time. "Sorry man, but no more mooks. You'd get your **** kicked." This test made him so sad. Please don't make him sad forever by making this scaling stick. Honestly, this was the absolute worst.

I propose a simple solution: No more placement. All progression. All nodes start easy peasy and scale up; first three cap at something low, next three something high, essentials something in between. Everything like it usually goes now, just without anyone having to sacrifice their lives and sanity to get a decent reward out of it.

Vhailorx

JVReal wrote:

Apparently I'm wrong for enjoying the event. I'm supposed to vehemently oppose it and disregard the fun that I experienced because of peer pressure.

Forget that I thought the scaling was perfect for my roster, forget that i actually felt better playing, forget that it was the funnest PVE I've participated in for a long time. Forget that, because according to forum experts, it's not logical for me to feel this way.

I defer to the forum to establish all my future opinions. I'll get back to you guys about what to have for lunch in about an hour...

You are of course able to feel however you want. I am (and others are) just pointing out that there appears to be a slight incongruity between your stated goals and your opinion of the new format.

Assume your goal is X (it sounds like X for you is max progression and top 100 placement, and that's definitely what it is for me).

If all you care about is X, the new system is worse in every possible way EXCEPT the subjective feeling of leaving points on the board when playing sub-optimally.

It is 100% possible to like the new system. But it doesn't make sense to like the new system BECAUSE it makes X easier. That's just not true. The new system makes X harder. It just offers a psychological cookie in the form of removing the 8 hour refresh.

JVReal

Vhailorx wrote:

JVReal wrote:

Apparently I'm wrong for enjoying the event. I'm supposed to vehemently oppose it and disregard the fun that I experienced because of peer pressure.

Forget that I thought the scaling was perfect for my roster, forget that i actually felt better playing, forget that it was the funnest PVE I've participated in for a long time. Forget that, because according to forum experts, it's not logical for me to feel this way.

I defer to the forum to establish all my future opinions. I'll get back to you guys about what to have for lunch in about an hour...

You are of course able to feel however you want. I am (and others are) just pointing out that there appears to be a slight incongruity between your stated goals and your opinion of the new format.

Assume your goal is X (it sounds like X for you is max progression and top 100 placement, and that's definitely what it is for me).

If all you care about is X, the new system is worse in every possible way EXCEPT the subjective feeling of leaving points on the board when playing sub-optimally.

It is 100% possible to like the new system. But it doesn't make sense to like the new system BECAUSE it makes X easier. That's just not true. The new system makes X harder. It just offers a psychological cookie in the form of removing the 8 hour refresh.

The entire concept of entertainment is psychological. Your desire to try and discount my assessment repeatedly is psychological. To believe that it is anything other than psychological is foolhardy.

Why do people grind top 10? Is it because its logical? No. Is it for a monetary benefit? No. Are there better things to do with ones time? Yes.

Its the psychological fullfilment we crave to satisfy. If the game makes me happier without a clock or time pressure, then it has done its job.

smkspy

I liked the removal of the timer, but I didnt like getting the same puny rewards for increasingly harder levels nor the dramatic rise in points to reach progression.

Dashing Pumba

Elesid wrote:

It's my time to respond))
First of all I'd like to thank the game designers for trying to make gameplay more interesting.

Below are my thoughts and ideas regarding the new pve approach
Strengths
1) I loved the idea of no time dependance - this is definitely a step in right direction
2) Challenge - the idea is great, make pve more of a challenge in terms of game than challenge in real life (you have to sleep less to meet 8hr marks etc.)

Weaknesses
1) Definitely, too hard to play for those who don't have killer combinations with buffed characters. It wasn't a problem for me, but many people suffered and couldn't participate almost at all. Even for proper rosters it was a challenge - you can see that a few people got the 25 cp reward. I barely got it myself.
2) Count downs at the end (after 6 hits) destroy the idea of no time dependence when you try to get to top10. Generally speaking now guys with phoenix oml teams seem to be in a great advantage (before such teams it was possible to get to the tops and buff your progression even at low levels)
3) ISO remuneration is considerably low. During the lightning rounds it's very unlikely someone will pay much effort to pve since it's hard and you get almost nothing especially for nods which were easy before

Ideas
1) Reduce the dependency from roster level in pve: I think it would be a good idea to split people into brackets based on their roster. Probably reconsider the bracket size and rewards (rewards change aligned with bracket size reduction).
2) Make pve be a game challenge, not a challenge of steel ****: remove everything essential from the rewards for top places, which is new 4* characters and introduce them through galactus/altron/gauntlet etc.
3) Improve time efforts/iso benefit balance via either increase of nod rewards or introduction of ally progression rewards. This would also reduce merc activity and stabilize ally personnel

These are my basic thoughts, hope you find it useful. Many thanks again for all your work and the game development performed so far. Though I still hate you for only one green goblin cover and no other 5* for two months:D

Agreed with you. New system have more positive points than negative.

Merrick

Now that the test is over & I've started Venom Bomb, I have to come back and say how much I prefer the original pve. (Even though Venom Bomb is the worst event ever).

The time requirement of the new system is just too much. If the initial hits were limited to 3 (the same as we would play under the original system, at 8 hour intervals), and the easy nodes were brought back (lock them after 7 hits if you don't want people grinding them); I would actually prefer the new system. If these changes are not made, the rewards should be increased to offset the increased difficulty, both the rewards on individual nodes, and overall progression rewards.

abmoraz

(apologies first. I'm not reading all 36 pages in this thread. I don't have that kind of time to waste )

Well, now that this test is over, here's my feedback above and beyond the meager questions in the form they had us fill out:

The good:
1. I really liked "6 attempts and then a 24hr cooldown" over the previous 8hr cooldown.
2. The scaling of repeat nodes increasing based on how many times you played it rather than time elapsed in the event.

The bad:
1. The initial scaling. ****? Trivial nodes were beating my "A" team fairly regularly [I have every maxxed, every championed and maxxed (except Bag-man who is championed at level 99), every Championed, every (3 championed, 4 more at 13 covers, and 7 more at 10+ covers), and 4 out of 5 (1, 1, 3, and 4 covers all at level 255)]. The trivial nodes should be "Trivial" and be worth less (both in rewards and points). Normal nodes should be normal, and the hard nodes should be hard. (Each should still increase in level with each victory. I think something between 5% and 10% per win would be ideal.)
2. The progression rewards. Seriously? This is the first event in MONTHS that I've not been able to get the final CP (formerly LT) reward. Normally I get it the day before the end of the event.
3. Because of the scaling débâcle, it took MORE time, not less to try and clear the nodes. I played this event more than previous ones and got less out of it.
4. Placement rewards (they are always a bad idea in PVE. Not unique to this event, but it bears repeating)
5. The choice of the event. The wave nodes were laughable (not in a good way) and the fact that it was a 7day event meant that my PvP suffered because I was constantly out health packs and my roster was decimated. I didn't get a chance to play the Magneto PvP to test its changes because I couldn't get any reasonable teams to play. I'm hoping on getting an hour to play it this evening.

My suggestions:
The ideas the Devs tried were good ones, I just think the implementation was poor.

1. I think the ideal way to determine scaling is not on level nor on covers, but both. The "scaling level" of your character would be determined by taking the number of covers you have for it and dividing it by the maximum number of covers (13 for most characters, 10 for a few select chars) and multiplying that number by the maximum level for that character. Add that to your character's actual level and divide by 2 (average them). Then average all the scaling levels across the entire roster
For example:
Let's say I have tiny roster with 5 characters (for calculations purposes):
- a level 150 Ice Man with 7 covers. His max level is 270 and the maximum covers is 13. His "scaling level" would be (((7/13) * 270) + 150)/2 = 148
- a fully covered Invisible Woman at level 70 (cause I think she is worthless to use or I don't have the ISO) her "scaling level" would be (((13/13) * 270) + 70)/2 = 170
- a fully championed level 266 Iron fist, his "scaling level" would be: (((13/13) * 166) + 266) / 2 = 216
- a single cover in a level 255 OML, he would be counted as: (((1/13) * 450) + 255) / 2 = 145
- a fully covered level 40 hawkeye: (((10/10) * 40) + 40) / 2 = 40
Then my scaling level would be: (148 + 170 + 216 + 145 + 40) / 5 = 143

This method has several advantages and addresses a lot of player complaints. It makes championing a character worth more as champion levels affect scaling less (i.e.: it makes championing the character worth more). It also doesn't screw over people for rostering a lone character before they have a decent roster. It also doesn't screw over people who have done like the Devs have asked and made a "large diverse roster", but are so ISO starved they can't level them all.

2. Keep the "first 6 runs get you full points, then a 24hr refresh-until-max-counter starts" format
3. Bring back the "trivial, normal, hard" based on the "scaling level" I described above. Trivial would start between "20%-40%" of the "scaling level", easy starts between "55%-75%, normal would start between "90%-110%", Hard would start between "130%-150%" and impossible between "170%-190%".
4. Keep the "base level of the node increases each time you beat it rather than on the time left in the event". Every time you beat a node, it goes up 10 level (or 10%, or whatever factor fits best).
5. Revert the progression rewards levels back to "if you beat each node in each event 3 times at full points, you can get to the final reward"...
6. ... UNLESS you finally ditch the placement rewards all together, then make the current "top reward" at the "beat each node 3 times" and put the top 100 of what is currently the placement awards above that, with the current #1 placement award requiring something like 10 runs through every node (it should be practically unreachable for all but the most dedicated of PvE players). Intersperse the rewards for below rank 100 among the current progression awards.

Clamps2

So I actually thought this test was a step in the right direction. I don't know why so many posts assume it's an absolute choice of new or old. It's a test, so they should be able to change both the scaling values and progression points while keeping the same format. I think that would address a lot of the complaints.

Anyway, as a 3* player with no particularly usable 4*s, my scaling never reached excessive difficulty levels until maybe the 5-7th clear except for a few nodes. It was just excessively grindy because every node was practically just the same battle at the same high level as the previous one. And I'm not sure EOTS is the best gauge of scaling anyway, because it's essentially just a lot of goon nodes. Sure caltrops is possibly the most aggravating ability in the game, and Teisatsu attack tiles started to hit damage levels I hadn't seen before, but goons are generally predictable and manageable. So I didn't mind it here, but fear what would happen to the scaling in something like The Hunt or Prodigal Sun.

I think the scaling can be improved fairly simply:
- Start the scaling where it used to be. Have a few trivial nodes so that we can actually use lower-leveled or under-covered chars.
- Scale the nodes much steeper so they reach the levels in the test after ~7 clears. Sure they might be jumping 40 levels per clear for some rosters, but it's far better than starting overscaled.
- Don't cap the scaling. Basically get rid of the option for optimal grinds.

Regarding progression:
- Requiring ~5-6 clears per sub instead of ~3 is obviously worse. I'd like to think that it's because it's based on previous runs of EOTS where rubberbanding was active. It used to have a huge effect in this event, so taking it out is going to skew everything. But due to lack of feedback (ever), it's really hard to judge whether the devs are pulling progression numbers out of thin air, or know *exactly* what they're doing.

Options regarding the apparent uncontrollable urge for people to do optimal grinds:
- Lower the activation of the reset timer to 4-5 nodes.
- If they really must use a reset timer, set it to something excessive like 100 days so it really doesn't matter when you play.
- (As per scaling above) If they don't cap the scaling, players will get scaled out by difficulty before time is a factor.
- More heavily weighted progression rewards.

Regarding wave nodes:
- So. Much. Tedium. It's like turning 9 nodes/sub into more like 20. And they further limit roster choice if you want a legitimate chance to beat them.
- Just reiterating other opinions that they either need to be capped or have more rewards.

Finally, getting rid of the 8 hour timer:
- The best part of the whole test.
- It shouldn't matter *when* you play, just how many nodes you manage to beat. It's Marvel Puzzle Quest, not Marvel “how best can I schedule my life to be free every 8 hours for the next week” Quest.
- I want to encourage the idea in the original post about “completing challenging-but-fun missions rather than playing missions quickly, at set times during the day”. They just got part of the equation wrong when they also set max progression to require at least 2 times the effort than before.

Vhailorx

Jvreal:

A couple of responses:

(1) I definitely don't want to make anything personal, so please do not think that i am suggesting that you are stupid or foolish. We just have a polite disagreement!

(2) there is definitely a psychological/enjoymemt element to playing the game at all. But i suspect that everyone who grinds out top 10 does so because they want to digital goods they will receive as rewards. Personally, I play the game in general because I enjoy it, and i play the specific amount of pve/PvP that i play because I want to achieve specifics reward goals.

(3) this new pve significantly increased the amount of time I need to play to achieve my relatively modest goals.

(4) with the increased scaling in the new system, I will not only have to play significant more matches, they will all noticeably harder in order to achieve the same goals.

(5) you seem to have the same pve goals as myself (top prog reward, top 100 finish)

(6) given those facts. I am trying to understand why our two reactions to the new system are so different. We seem to want the same things, and the new system makes those things noticeably harder to achieve. Yet you like the new system and I hare it.

Clamps2

Vhailorx wrote:

(6) given those facts. I am trying to understand why our two reactions to the new system are so different. We seem to want the same things, and the new system makes those things noticeably harder to achieve. Yet you like the new system and I hare it.

Not JVReal, but from my perspective it's because you're assuming that the new system can't be altered in any way. I think the new system adds a lot of good changes:
- No 8 hour timer (Some of us have jobs or other life commitments where this is not possible. Or say, the need to sleep.)
- No rubberbanding (for fairness)
- Limiting opponents to 13 power levels.

If they were to lower the both the scaling and the points required for max progression, doesn't this solve your complaints while effectively keeping the new system?

Vhailorx

Clamps2 wrote:

Vhailorx wrote:

(6) given those facts. I am trying to understand why our two reactions to the new system are so different. We seem to want the same things, and the new system makes those things noticeably harder to achieve. Yet you like the new system and I hare it.

Not JVReal, but from my perspective it's because you're assuming that the new system can't be altered in any way. I think the new system adds a lot of good changes:
- No 8 hour timer (Some of us have jobs or other life commitments where this is not possible. Or say, the need to sleep.)
- No rubberbanding (for fairness)
- Limiting opponents to 13 power levels.

If they were to lower the both the scaling and the points required for max progression, doesn't this solve your complaints while effectively keeping the new system?

That would certainly be an improvement. But no, the bottom line that for me, the new system just means more time playing for the same outcome.

In the new system I can play each node 3 times a day optimally or 4 time in my own schedule and get everything I want from pve.

In the new system, I must play each node 5+ times to get the same effect.

You (and jvreal) keep bringing up the 8 hour timer. It's true that the 8 hour schedule is irritating (as was the 2.5 hour time before it and as is the entire idea of replenishing points in a pve format), but you never really address the fact that unless you wanted top 20 placement or better. The timer was basically meaningless. It was entirely possible to achieve all progression rewards and top 50 placement while paying absolutely no attention to the timer at all AND STILL PLAYING LESS than is required under the new system.

I think demiurge didn't like how many cp were going out the door under the old system. So they significantly raised the difficulty of reaching the max prog reward while throwing players a superficial (and distracting) bone by getting rid of the 8-hour timer.

I hope I am wrong, but from my perspective the "play when you want" aspects of the new change was just window dressing on the actual change, which is more grinding for everyone.

Clamps2

Vhailorx wrote:

That would certainly be an improvement. But no, the bottom line that for me, the new system just means more time playing for the same outcome.

So let's say that they set the max progression amount to be the same in the old system and the new system. How does the new system hurt you now? (Assuming scaling problems are solved)

Vhailorx wrote:

You (and jvreal) keep bringing up the 8 hour timer. It's true that the 8 hour schedule is irritating (as was the 2.5 hour time before it and as is the entire idea of replenishing points in a pve format), but you never really address the fact that unless you wanted top 20 placement or better. The timer was basically meaningless. It was entirely possible to achieve all progression rewards and top 50 placement while paying absolutely no attention to the timer at all AND STILL PLAYING LESS than is required under the new system.

Assuming the same max progression amounts in each system, I can do 3 clears in a row in the new system and reach it. If I do all my clears at once in the current system, diminishing returns mean that it's going to take 20% more effort. If my goal is to play as little as possible to reach max progression, the new system is clearly better.

And if my goal is to be more competitive than that, then diminishing returns basically don't allow anything other than an 8 hour schedule.

Vhailorx wrote:

I think demiurge didn't like how many cp were going out the door under the old system. So they significantly raised the difficulty of reaching the max prog reward while throwing players a superficial (and distracting) bone by getting rid of the 8-hour timer.

Wouldn't they just increase the max progression under the current system? They keep it changing anyway, I remember reading somewhere in this thread that max progression has been different for the past 3 EOTS. It's hardly set in stone, and this would be a *much* simpler solution.

Vhailorx

Clamps:

The node point values change from one run to the next, and the max prog values change from run to run. But the ratio of point node values to max prog rewards b
Has been fairly consistent: 3x optimal clears in each sub = max prog.

The new system has something 4-5 clears if each node for max prog (as per ebolamonkey's post above). That is the change as implemented in this test and as reviewed by me. Its bad. And I am not willing to hand wave it away by assuming that demiurge will implement a significant, player-friendly shift in the scoring (their track record for that sort of thing is pretty bad).

As for diminishing point values in the old system: yes playing sub optimally was less efficient. But even the worst case scenario for the old system require 4 hits on each node for max prog. Even the worst case scenario under the old system was better than the new system (with respect to top prog rewards).

This is not a defense of the old system. I dislike the old system rather a lot. But that doesn't change the fact that the old system was (shockingly) much friendlier to players than the new system as tested.

And yes, just raising the the max prog level would be a simpler way to reduce the cps awarded each event. But it would also be obvious. Doing it this way produces the same net effect, but a significant portion of the player base doesn't care because they are happy to see the timer 'go away' (although since finishing points still exist, the new system just changed than optimal play schedule rather than actually letting players okay whenever they want).

JVReal

My favorite things were:

Scaling increases were a fixed increase after beating a node. Beating one node did not scale the next node, it only increased the node you just beat by a predictable amount. The starting nodes did have a slightly lower scaling than the ending nodes, but not enough to be defining them as Trivial. I do miss the trivial nodes, the relief of beating an easier node after wiping to a ridiculously scaled node.

I liked the fact that the enemies were limited to 13 covers. If they only implement one thing... let this be it.

I liked that there was no timer. I could play for maximum points before the 'cool down' kicks in. I did not play this one as much as a normal event because of the fact that I wanted to test it as playing it only when I actually had time, instead of making time. I believe I scored better than I would have if I played at the exact times on the old system. It may not have given me the Top progression then either because of diminishing returns. I believe 60K of my points came from the last day of continuous play which would not have happened if I played the exact time under the old rules. This did impact my progression and did impact my placement.

I want to place as high as I can, and get as far as I can in progression, playing when I can. To do that most efficiently would mean not losing points with a diminishing system. Whether they continue to set the progression bar higher or not will have an impact, as others have stated correctly, on whether I hit max progression or not based on my available play time.

My goal is not to play as little as possible. My goal is to get as much out of the game as possible in the small amount of time I have available to play it (and not get in trouble with the family).

I will still play the game whether they make the changes or not. I just may play more or less, and my level of fun while playing may vary. I do appreciate everyone expressing their thoughts on this. I like people pointing out both the positives and negatives of this variety of changes all thrown in at once.

I don't see this test as a pass/fail. There are too many different variables for that.

Clamps2

Vhailorx wrote:

Clamps:

The node point values change from one run to the next, and the max prog values change from run to run. But the ratio of point node values to max prog rewards b
Has been fairly consistent: 3x optimal clears in each sub = max prog.

The new system has something 4-5 clears if each node for max prog (as per ebolamonkey's post above). That is the change as implemented in this test and as reviewed by me. Its bad. And I am not willing to hand wave it away by assuming that demiurge will implement a significant, player-friendly shift in the scoring (their track record for that sort of thing is pretty bad).

As for diminishing point values in the old system: yes playing sub optimally was less efficient. But even the worst case scenario for the old system require 4 hits on each node for max prog. Even the worst case scenario under the old system was better than the new system (with respect to top prog rewards).

This is not a defense of the old system. I dislike the old system rather a lot. But that doesn't change the fact that the old system was (shockingly) much friendlier to players than the new system as tested.

- I'm fairly certain that node point values don't change between runs. Max prog certainly does. I don't disagree that it's generally been somewhere around 3-4 clears for a while now.
- Also agreed. I probably averaged ~7 clears of the high value nodes in the test, and cleared max progression by a reasonable margin. I suspect that it would have taken 5-6 clears in this test while ignoring some of the lower value Wolvie+red feeder nodes that weren't worth anyone's time.
- Agree again. Sub-optimal hits should be able to hit progression in 4 clears. My point is that players are unable to compete for top rewards in the current system unless they adhere to optimal 8 hours clears.
- Once again I agree. This specific run of the test was incredibly grindy and I didn't particularly enjoy that aspect of it. If I wasn't on track for some decent rewards after the first 2 subs, I would have taken it much more casually.

However, despite this test's flaws, I still think the concept of the new system has better potential than the existing one. You seem to be hung up on the specifics of how the test was run. Seriously, when have any changes in this game ever been implemented ideally the first time? There were a lot of moving parts that were thrown into this test at once.

Bottom line is that it was a test. I would like to think that the good parts can be kept while ironing out the problems.

Ebolamonkey84

The debate going on in here reminds me of that episode of South Park where they have to choose between a giant **** and a turd sandwich.

As presented to us in this test, I prefer the old way of PVE. I finished 1st in my bracket with a little over 270k, and I hated it. On the other hand, I did not set an alarm for 6 AM today (my 2nd clear time), so will now be limited to t10 or so in Venom Bomb.

To me, there were three factors in this event that made me hate it: the new timer format, the new scaling, and the event itself (Enemy of the State).
Here are my main issues.

The increased progression
As noted in one of my previous posts, the old system typically required you to hit nodes 3 times on the 8 hour schedule, or 4 times whenever you felt like it. The new timer format requires you to hit every node 4-5 times due to the increased points available and the shift that made the grind worth half of the full clear points. Also, 3 of the nodes in the new system are significantly harder due to the new scaling, leading to increased time needed to play.

Solution: Reduce the number of full clears to 3, 4 at the most. This should put the max progression at roughly the same amount of effort as in the old system.

The new optimal strategy
This has been discussed in detail already. To play optimally, the old way required 3 clears spread out throughout the day, followed by 5-6 clears at the end of a sub. The new way requires 6 clears at the beginning, and 5 clears at the end. I did not play optimally. I tried to hit the big point nodes 6 times before going to bed, and would hit the others throughout the day. This still means I hit each node 10-11 times, which is more than I usually do. There are also only 7 (or 1) rewards per node, so that end grind just feels like a lot of hassle for little reward. I would almost prefer the old 20 ISO system when playing competitively, as I would almost always have the node rewards after grinding anyway.

Solution: See above. 3 full clears gets us down to 8 clears total for optimal play. Changing the node stack from 5 to 4 would also be nice.

The scaling
It was a bad idea to pair the new scaling with the new format. The new scaling is a disaster for a large portion of the player base, and it taints the new format by association. I was excited to get OML back, but then my initial scaling increased by ~50 levels to compensate. I play both PVE and PVP. PVP basically requires you to use your best characters to advance. When not playing for top 5, I was able to use other characters in PVE besides the ones I use in PVP. This was impossible with the new scaling. Konran red was doing ~14K damage, which would kill or cripple most of my roster. Gorgon had over 40k HP. Caltrops, Shuriken, and Turn to Smoke did enough damage to trigger XPool's passive.

Solution: Start the scaling much lower. If you are trying to prevent grinding, the step up between clears can increase to get the end scaling roughly the same. I should have more options for team selection for at least the first 2-3 clears.

Poor rewards for effort
I'm ok with getting 70 ISO/100 ISO when a match takes me roughly 1-2 minutes to beat. When that goes to 5-10 minutes, it starts to get insulting. That is still better than the wave nodes, which only reward you once, but are required to hit repeatedly if going for placement, since they hold the majority of the points.

Solution: Increase rewards. Do it based on scaling if you are concerned about flooding new players with ISO. Make the waves have more rewards. The main node during sub 1 was a wave node with 7 rewards, so it is obviously possible to do this.