PVE Scaling Testing - Enemy Of The State (03/17/16)

Gwythian

Here's the main problem with PvE for me:

1.) 6 hits and wait for 24 hours, hit and grind is HORRIBLE. 11+ times a node? You've gotta be kidding me. The rewards are abysmal. Why on earth would I grind that hard for 100 ISO? 100 ISO is a drop in the bucket. I mean on a 9 node sub, if you play optimally you're looking at 100+ rounds. Except you have to do 80% of it upfront, as soon as possible. It's insane, the health packs don't support it, and most importantly... It drives me not to want to play because it's just NOT fun.

2.) Rewards - I touched on this in the first part... The rewards are almost not worth the risk, and definitely so in EotS. The only reason you do the grind is for the overall rewards or the progression rewards, but when the work becomes obscene, you don't even want to do that. The rewards should be comparatively matched with the difficulty of the node. Three hits into a node, Wolverine starts hitting me for 4.5k. I've only got so many characters who can take that hit once, and it's guaranteed to happen every time with the way this sub is designed. So you want me to go into a fight, knowing I'm going to get wrecked, and pay health packs for a **** reward of 100 or 70 ISO.

3.) Scaling - Good gravy. Wolverine's scaling is out of control. Admantium Slash is annoying to deal with even if he wasn't getting "free" red AP. But when he is, it's just a cluster. And then you're scaling him up to levels past my own in 3 rounds. It's absolutely insane, not balanced, and again.. NOT FUN.

Solutions:

1.) Make the grind have the most points up front and diminishing returns as you play it more with regen. The players who can last longer, win more, win. Even if it's only 20 points at 0, they win, but make it easier to hit progression. Right now it's just masochistic.

2.) Rewards should be proportional to the difficulty. Right now the scaling is such that it seems that the devs consider the match up versus an ideal opponent. I get that the end game of a business is to make money. Truly I do. But there should be an element of sustainability. It bothers me a lot that my opponent out levels me and gets free AP. It doesn't make the winning fun, it makes the winning suck. I get wasted, I have to use valuable Health Packs just to play again. Even if I play well, intelligently, and do what I'm supposed to do, I take a lot of damage. That's no fun.

3.) Scaling - I appreciate the change to take covers into account, but it needs to account for covers AT A CERTAIN LEVEL. Health matters a lot. If the Health is too low to absorb a 4.5k hit, or barely survive it, then that's not fun. The scaling isn't correct. It's saying "Oh if you're fully covered, then you should be able to take this. If you're not leveled it's your fault." WRONG. D3... It's your fault. If I have a character not maxed out, it's because I don't have the ISO. I'm not soft capping, but I have to move my whole roster up at one time so I maintain depth and sustainability. If the game starts to punish that, then you start having to dump into a few characters, which then creates a scaling problem. Are you taking into account the WHOLE roster? Just the top three? Why are you basing scaling and ability to win a match based off of three well covered/leveled characters when those three are guaranteed NOT to be sustainable? It's a lose lose. Unless you make ISO much more easily available, this methodology of scaling is wrong. It should be: Level * % of covers * % of max health of the champion that sets opponent level, health, and damage. Not only that, but it should take into account at least the top 20 characters, not just the top three. Also, does the formula account for boosts skewing my roster to making a bunch of hardly covered 4*s have massive levels even though they are insanely weak at 1-3 covers?

Basically I think the matchmatching is still far far away from being appropriate for midrange rosters. Top Roster will destroy things before it matters, weak rosters don't take much damage. But then in the middle, you get rated on three characters who are relatively built out, and then ignores the X amount of 3*s much less covered or leveled.

JustiBear

On a positive note...if just going for progression rewards I love the removal of timers since the only slice so I can grinds the last few hours starts at midnight for me which is not good especially when trying for a new release character meaning I would either need to stay up late to get a clear in or lose out on the first 7 hours and try to get one in before work.

On the negative side....Feels like I've put way more effort in to this event than others and just feeling burnt and discouraged. It feels very grindy and less fun to me. I never have a problem getting CP progression reward but this time around I'm currently sitting 97th overall in my grouping and only about 40% of way to the CP reward. Considering how many points I need in the next 2 days I'm now convinced it's not even worth it and will just call it a day after getting the CP from the nodes. My 5 stars with a couple covers are just killing me for the starting levels of many nodes. I cant sink ISO to level my 5* right now because they are still not great with only a couple covers and I need that ISO badly for my 4* which I actually use. Scaling for wolverine and gorgon are ridiculous and wrecking me very quickly this round even after 1-2 clears. I've never had a problem getting top 100 for a new release but if this was for a new character I'm certain I wouldn't even bother as between work and family I just don't have the time to grind any more than I did before and this definitely feels way more of a grind to me which is not fun

Clintj

Its absolutely horrible. If it stays this way than i quit. I used to be able to get all of the rewards now the battles are way too hard.

Unknown

I found out that new PvE system makes me spend more time playing it and, as result, leaves me no time and no health packs to play Versus Events, which i usually also do.

actarus76

i'm a pve top10 player and i'll finish this pve at #1 but this time it is possible only because i'm ill so i have several hours to play on mpq.

d3 wrote that i that way there isn't a time to play and everybody could play when they want but they don't consider that if players want to get best rewards they have to play double time than before: on old pve i play at start of subevent (30 minutes), after 8 hours (30 minutes) x2 and then i grind the last 2 hours, so i played 3h 30 minutes; now i need 3 hours (or more) to unlock nodes and then 3 hours to grind because it is very difficult. 6 hours each days are too much, it's like a work and not a game.
furthermore how is it possibile that the 3rd in my bracket has only characters at lvl 70???

few iso, few rewards, high difficulties, so much time... in this phrase i say the summary of this pve: i don't think i'll play another pve with these rules

ps: one of our best player leave the game during the tet and he will restart to play only if modifications won't be confirmed really thanks

Nick441234

I feel sorry for anyone who actually gets the 25cp reward, and then draws a terrible cover.

I've got no chance of reaching it, and I usually always get the reward before the end. The scaling eats too many health packs to make 155,000 points even close to being achievable for me.

Alfje17

Ready to give in, it's just no fun.
With only a few 1 cover 4* heroes, I start off fights at lvl 100 and my mainly 2* teams just can't deal the damage that's needed.
Last time I played EOTS, I didn't even have a single 2* maxed up and I managed to get the 3* cover. Now after 4 days of playing, I haven't even reached the 2* cover. Every fight takes me 10 to 20 minutes and I just don't have the time to play every node (let alone multiple times). The meagre points and ISO just aren't worth spending my time on this PVE.
Looks like I'll just be playing some Deadpool for the next few days: the waves of Ultrons/Symbiotes are really annoying too, but at least you can get all rewards for playing less than an hour a day.

Polares

This is why I always get pissed at devs, you want to do a test to see if something works? Great, this is what tests are for, but then raising the progression rewards for this event you are doing the test? Why, who had this genius idea? Why do always want to make life for their players harder?!?!?! If you don't know how things are going to go don't touch anything else!

I think I am going to get the progression, I am just 18k away, so I guess between today and tomorrow I will get there, but the amount of work needed has been like twice the last time, and with much harder nodes.

Definitely NOT FUN

Ps: Instead of 10 CPs for top50 they should be giving 25 extra CPs to anyone that played this event for more than two days (like top200)

y2fitzy

This latest sub is the first one that hasn't felt terrible to me. Scaling seems 'alright', particularly on the essential nodes which have relatively been a breeze (at my mediocre level)

snlf25

These are my final thoughts on the test, copied and pasted from another thread.



Re: Likeliehood of EoS progression reward

Postby snlf25 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:14 pm
No way in hell. I slogged through to get tokens for the vault, I pulled 17 times and never got the Iceman green I desperately wanted. Even though every sub but Hell's Kitchen I came in top 100 I just now got the 43k or whatever OBW. Gave up on Hell's Kitchen and I'm still in top 200 for placement.

Number one guy in my bracket, his best toon is a level 98 champion 2* Captain Marvel. Test is a failure and did nothing to convince me there was ever any benefit to winning my 5*s or putting iso into my roster. The problem wasn't time, it was the sheer brutal difficulty from the 4th clear forward. I honestly had easier times with Galactus and Ultron than I did with 2* Wolverine and that is just ****.

BlackSheep101

Everything was made too hard. The early nodes take too long and take off too much health for too few points and too small rewards. The later nodes are a struggle each time. I've managed to do at least one full clear of each sub. Only grinding for CP or the essential nodes, which have more modest scaling for more points.

BigBZ32

I didn't think this new PvE was as bad as others, but I think I still prefer the old way. I guess my PvE play style is hit progression while farming ISO and HP. I still usually rank pretty decently.

Normal PvE, I usually rank top 5-15. To get here, I basically do full clears (7 hits) each node per sub. Even in a new character release I tend to stick to this strategy with a bit more grinding and I still place top 10 and hit progression easily before the last sub. In this EOtS, I find myself only hitting each node 5-6 times, with the exception of the first sub where I hit each node 7-8 times. I'm ranking in the top 15 and will hit progression.

I'm finding that after 5-6 clears scaling becomes an issue although I can still clear, I don't want to use too many because I like to save for PvP. It also feels too much of a chore to go on. That's why I prefer the old way, I'm willing to hit the nodes more. Also, the ability to play whenever instead of an 8 hour schedule has been problematic for me personally. I like the schedule and I think I haven't been paying attention to my time constraints as much and could be a reason for not hitting nodes more.

Considering I'm performing about the same as always, I just find the old way of things more relaxing. I felt this would be more relaxing, but it hasn't. Like I said, it feels more like a chore at a certain point. I don't have anything in mind right now to suggest what could make it better for me, but I just wanted to share my experience.

TimGunn

lot has been said on this, but i kind of like it. Definitely like being able to play whenever I want. My thoughts:

1. top progression reward is too hard, requires too much grinding. Should be set at 3x clears per day
2. bring back the easy first three fights! The measly points you get from these do not justify their hardness.
3. cool it with the ridiculous scaling at the top nodes. I mean, give me a break!

4. there needs to be some easy way to tell how many times you have fought a battle. No way to tell on wave fights. You can sort of tell on regular fights by counting how many rewards you've received, but it should be easier to quickly tell

whoami

nick_chicane wrote:

I feel sorry for anyone who actually gets the 25cp reward, and then draws a terrible cover.

I've got no chance of reaching it, and I usually always get the reward before the end. The scaling eats too many health packs to make 155,000 points even close to being achievable for me.

Oooh Oooh oooh, that's me, that's me!!! Opened 4 LT today, from CPs earned in EotS after just reaching the progression. Wolvie green, don't need. Mr F blue, need but who cares. Chulk green, ditto. And an iceman blue (4th cover).

I am pretending that the iceman cover came from EotS. Otherwise I might just start weeping uncontrollably.

jtmagee

Scaling for beginning nodes should be a little lower. Decent idea within the format, but even trying to get as many done as quickly as possible, health packs need to be adjusted. Not everyone has a full roster to contend in PVE in this format. Just needs small adjustments but I like the theory. Should not be applied to any Heroics due to lack of roster availability.

JeffCascadian

My two cents worth:

For the most part, I've enjoyed the new format. I have three complaints, not all of which have to do with the changes.

1) I miss the super-simple early nodes. Not that I want a cake walk but because I like a chance to use my lower level characters. If I'm facing some opponents in their 30s, I'm glad to play characters of similar level (usually level 40).

2) The event rewards are just too darn expensive. I've done okay recently earning the event points for the big prize at the end but there's just too much this time. Even if all I did was "Enemy of the State"--no DDQ, no PVP--I'd have to devote more than normal play time to earn the 25 .

3) The event itself is too long. I know that this isn't related to the changes but, just so you know, I prefer PVEs that are 3-4 days. A week just drags.

madsalad

Well, nearing the end of EotS, time to throw my two cents in.

1. Scaling
The scaling was way too steep. It started high and went way over the top, even on the first sub. The scaling needs to come down. Not a ton, but enough so you don't feel like you have hit the wall after the 3rd hit on a node.

2. Structure
6 clears before points go down and then grind down to 20pts was a poor choice. Given that there are placement rewards (see: Rewards below) people are competing against other players. That means people will inevitably try for the optimal grind, which has been mentioned multiple times over the previous 33 pages so I won't get into that. This "Story" mode (or PVE) really should be about progression, not placement. My suggestion is just keep making nodes infinitely more difficult with no timer. Eventually, you will hit a wall. Players will start figuring out at what point they are hitting a wall when they start coming out of nodes with less and less health. You can also increase the points per node for each increase in difficulty.

3. Rewards
HOLY GOD THIS WAS NOT WORTH IT. You increased the scaling but not the rewards structure. I felt that the effort I was putting in on every node and every replay of a node was definitely not worth the effort. If you were to go with my above suggestion of making difficulty per node scale into infinity, you could also make a mini rewards progression per node where as the difficulty increases, so do the rewards. Also, get rid of placement rewards, make the Story mode more about placement rewards, add more, varied rewards along the progression path.

At this point, the only things this new scaling and structure did was make me realize how much I missed the previous PVE structure.

Good effort but the scaling and structure should have been introduced with increased rewards. I think some of this would have been easier to swallow if I was making about 3x the amount of iso/rewards I am currently making under the regular structure.

Keep up the work. Take all of this feedback and make something better.

DCUDCU

This PVE really opened up for me once Wolverine was allowed back. The scaling maybe a bit too high in general. I just really like survival nodes, and once I got OML back I rolled in Subs 6/7 with my 2/2/2 OML, 4* JG and Scarlett Witch ( Or JG/SW for required character nodes).

By rolled I think I got 95k+ in Subs 6/7 with 17 hours to go in Sub 7.

Alkyoneus

If the Devs are still reading this thread, I would like to try to add to the points listed throughout this thread. I do try to see the good and the bad in all things, but this event was really painful to play. I have a very deep roster that includes 4 championed 4*, a dozen championed 3*, and covers on all 5* characters. I've been playing a long time and I'm very familiar with how EoTS is supposed to play out. That being said, having 6 Normal-Hard fights, 3 survival nodes, and minimal ability to use a variety of teams, this event felt more like work than a game.

On 4 of 7 subs, I hit every node the 7 times to get the counter started, did some minimal grinding here and there for ISO, and am currently ranked 6th overall in my bracket. I don't need XFW covers, but that's where I ended up; I'll stop at progression and let someone else have those covers they worked so hard for 7 days to get.

I BARELY hit progression. I didn't hit it until the final survival nodes opened up for 2-3K points each. Pulled a wonderful GR green out of it, at least to get him to 13/13. This did not seem worth the effort at all. Too little rewards and too long grinding everything. I don't enjoy playing this game for hours on end anymore. I can't imagine how awful this type of event would be for a 4* character release; the message the players have gotten as a whole has always been "we care more about making money and our bottom line than players having fun." This works as long as Super-Whales like KDN exist. Once that goes away, the game dies pretty quickly. I really like this game, I enjoy playing it and it's been a good time, but events like these don't make the players happy.

There have been lots of good ideas put forth in this thread; please take the time to read them and implement some of them instead of keeping this format. Thanks for reading!

TheWerebison

Overall, I enjoyed the event. It does need a tiny bit of reduction to the scaling, or perhaps the starting levels. The progression reward was also rather high, I didn't even come CLOSE until the last sub, and I gotta tell you, I was a tad scared. Even then, I barely made it. But still, it was really, really nice to play until I ran out of health packs rather than doing every node and then waiting 8 hours, hoping I don't have something else going on that will keep me from optimal play.