TKC wrote: LakeStone wrote: - Knight of the White Orchid is now a 4/4, down from 6/6 Knight of the White Orchid was too strong, as playing it early made you win most of your fights due to dealing 6 damage with First Strike. Down to 4/4 it should be much more manageable and creatures with 5 Toughness will be able to damage it. It still is a beast when Reinforced![/size] I note when taking Gideon's level 2 power into account, this change has made a rare (KotWO) objectively inferior in every way to an uncommon (Consul's Lieutenant).
LakeStone wrote: - Knight of the White Orchid is now a 4/4, down from 6/6 Knight of the White Orchid was too strong, as playing it early made you win most of your fights due to dealing 6 damage with First Strike. Down to 4/4 it should be much more manageable and creatures with 5 Toughness will be able to damage it. It still is a beast when Reinforced![/size]
Dskysmine wrote: I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color.
paralistalon wrote: Like, since when can a single bounce spell return 8 thopter tokens to your hand?
TKC wrote: Dskysmine wrote: I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color. It does, but 3 power isn't really hard to come by. Although I will say that the turn it takes to apply vigilance has bitten me in the **** more than once. The Consul doesn't need a nerf and "who rares wins" just turns people off. Yes, there's always going to be some of that, but making every good card a rare is just annoying. My point was rather that KotWO needs a cost decrease. Remember, Consul enters play as a 4/3. Red can easily burn it, black has a 3 mana common that destroys it, green's all about the creatures and blue...well, used to be able to bounce it, but most likely can't anymore. That's not a problem with Consul, though, but a problem with the implementation of the bounce nerf.
pandabear wrote: I also wanted to point out that knight of the orchid was good because of his first strike, not because of his 6/6. By not addressing that with the nerf now you end up having a 4/4 for 16 which is pretty hideous for rare. He needs to be 12-14 mana or he is almost entirely worse than consuls lieutenant. Who is a 5/4 for 12 with first strike. Hmm... You still don't realize why your current creature meta is lacking. Let me break it down. First strike + defender/berserker instantly wins games because you cannot decide to attack in waves, nor can u decide not to block. You have yugiohs combat system in magic body, and that doesn't bode well. Combat damage does not regenerate, making wall creatures utterly pointless and also way too expensive. You put too much mana cost on the defender keyword. In truth pretty much zero defenders are worth using, purely because they are defenders. The ones worth using are worth because they have reach and are appropriately costed. Because a cards usefulness depends entirely on their efficiency for damage/cost. You can see why toughness is pointless and you only want things that will do the most damage over the most rounds. That means you want only the most efficient creatures, or first strike. Hp pools are wayyyy too big and skew how magic works. If u have like 80 hp games take a lot longer. In Magic a 2/2 first turn drop immediately puts a 10 round timer on your head. A 6/6 that isn't removed is immediately a game ender. But since hp pools are so vast, control is far more important and the best planeswalkers are the ones with extended board control, which are jace and Gideon. This is why they are dominant. So this game is very different than mtg, and you should take care while doing card translations because we're playing an entirely different game here.
pandabear wrote: First strike + defender/berserker instantly wins games because you cannot decide to attack in waves, nor can u decide not to block. You have yugiohs combat system in magic body, and that doesn't bode well.
pandabear wrote: Combat damage does not regenerate, making wall creatures utterly pointless and also way too expensive. You put too much mana cost on the defender keyword. In truth pretty much zero defenders are worth using, purely because they are defenders. The ones worth using are worth because they have reach and are appropriately costed.
Dskysmine wrote: hafersvideo wrote: If you wanted an actual challenge they would have to improve the AI. Even with good stuff the AI mistakes make it easy to win. And, lucky for you it's even easier to trounce white decks while the AI waits for 16 mana to play a 4/4 and then another 9 pw mana to pump it 1 and you can just sit back and laugh while you burn it all down with Chandra's cheap burn spells and endless burn ability. I understand that for some, the goal is to login to forums and dickwave whenever possible. It is the internet after all. I had just hoped my honest response to the news would be met with less presumptions and arrogance despite any disagreement. I disagree that continual nerfing is a good strategy, particularly with the PWs. You want to bump KotWO down to an Uncommon (it's no better than Irosa in a W deck now), that's fine. I wish I had pulled the rare that the "non-niche" players play, but nothing really lost. But me not wanting to level up Gideon now, on purpose, is a problem. The curve is too steep for what the ability does and it's better to have the cheaper options. This was already a problem with a couple other PWs, and now you've added another. I've never played another PQ game, and maybe that's the way you want it, but it makes no sense to me. Cards should be balanced before release and error on the side of caution that would require buffs, not nerfs. Not even MtG official releases cards on the side of requiring buffs... Cards that are not good just don't see play... That's pretty much how it goes. I disagree entirely that they are supposed to be that careful. I just wish they could be more responsive to actual bugs in the game. I also agree that blue and white were just too overpowered but I don't understand why the bounce effect will stop working if the hand is full. Is it so hard to implement a discard if more than x at end of turn? It will make blue bounce only decent against Aggro decks and useless against any other. Bouncing of tokens should still serve as destruction, not sure how it will be in this new release. Also now that angel Tomb is gone I am at a loss on what strategy to go to win the speed objectives which are the only ones I am missing.
hafersvideo wrote: If you wanted an actual challenge they would have to improve the AI. Even with good stuff the AI mistakes make it easy to win. And, lucky for you it's even easier to trounce white decks while the AI waits for 16 mana to play a 4/4 and then another 9 pw mana to pump it 1 and you can just sit back and laugh while you burn it all down with Chandra's cheap burn spells and endless burn ability. I understand that for some, the goal is to login to forums and dickwave whenever possible. It is the internet after all. I had just hoped my honest response to the news would be met with less presumptions and arrogance despite any disagreement. I disagree that continual nerfing is a good strategy, particularly with the PWs. You want to bump KotWO down to an Uncommon (it's no better than Irosa in a W deck now), that's fine. I wish I had pulled the rare that the "non-niche" players play, but nothing really lost. But me not wanting to level up Gideon now, on purpose, is a problem. The curve is too steep for what the ability does and it's better to have the cheaper options. This was already a problem with a couple other PWs, and now you've added another. I've never played another PQ game, and maybe that's the way you want it, but it makes no sense to me. Cards should be balanced before release and error on the side of caution that would require buffs, not nerfs.
madwren wrote: What Black common? If you mean Reave Soul, that's 3 power, not toughness. Am I missing another card?
Dskysmine wrote: TKC wrote: LakeStone wrote: - Knight of the White Orchid is now a 4/4, down from 6/6 Knight of the White Orchid was too strong, as playing it early made you win most of your fights due to dealing 6 damage with First Strike. Down to 4/4 it should be much more manageable and creatures with 5 Toughness will be able to damage it. It still is a beast when Reinforced![/size] I note when taking Gideon's level 2 power into account, this change has made a rare (KotWO) objectively inferior in every way to an uncommon (Consul's Lieutenant). I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color.
Silentmbb wrote: paralistalon wrote: Like, since when can a single bounce spell return 8 thopter tokens to your hand? Echoing Truth. Yes, they don't go to you hand, but whatever.
hafersvideo wrote: Dskysmine wrote: hafersvideo wrote: If you wanted an actual challenge they would have to improve the AI. Even with good stuff the AI mistakes make it easy to win. And, lucky for you it's even easier to trounce white decks while the AI waits for 16 mana to play a 4/4 and then another 9 pw mana to pump it 1 and you can just sit back and laugh while you burn it all down with Chandra's cheap burn spells and endless burn ability. I understand that for some, the goal is to login to forums and dickwave whenever possible. It is the internet after all. I had just hoped my honest response to the news would be met with less presumptions and arrogance despite any disagreement. I disagree that continual nerfing is a good strategy, particularly with the PWs. You want to bump KotWO down to an Uncommon (it's no better than Irosa in a W deck now), that's fine. I wish I had pulled the rare that the "non-niche" players play, but nothing really lost. But me not wanting to level up Gideon now, on purpose, is a problem. The curve is too steep for what the ability does and it's better to have the cheaper options. This was already a problem with a couple other PWs, and now you've added another. I've never played another PQ game, and maybe that's the way you want it, but it makes no sense to me. Cards should be balanced before release and error on the side of caution that would require buffs, not nerfs. Not even MtG official releases cards on the side of requiring buffs... Cards that are not good just don't see play... That's pretty much how it goes. I disagree entirely that they are supposed to be that careful. I just wish they could be more responsive to actual bugs in the game. I also agree that blue and white were just too overpowered but I don't understand why the bounce effect will stop working if the hand is full. Is it so hard to implement a discard if more than x at end of turn? It will make blue bounce only decent against Aggro decks and useless against any other. Bouncing of tokens should still serve as destruction, not sure how it will be in this new release. Also now that angel Tomb is gone I am at a loss on what strategy to go to win the speed objectives which are the only ones I am missing. Just because this game uses MtG source material, you think that's a good comparison? Wizards has the resources, people, and experience to test the **** out of each new release of cards. To say they don't release cards erring on the side of requiring buffs is mind-numingly false and riddled with logical fallacies. Not only is this game mechanically different, but it's digital which is very different from releasing a paper based game, which I believe MtG still is. I was going to go into dissecting that, but after reading your comment, I have to ask do you really think that Wizards do not painstakingly and methodically develop and adjust cards each and every set to make absolutely sure that not a single card is too powerful (or too broken as the mtg kids say) in any format they care about? They absolutely make sure cards aren't in need of a nerf, because the only nerf bat they have in their arsenal is a ban hammer. Do you see them banning this many cards after a set release? Or, umm, any? Makes you think (I hope). Now, if you actually consider how this is a digital only game, with developers, fewer play testers and more demanding timelines considering the coding and what not, it is perfectly reasonable to expect adjustments regularly. Since it is a digital game, with other games that are similar, and those games have periodic adjustments, I can't help but look at those other games with their successes and failures, as well as my experience playing them, and think yes, I would much rather see sets of cards released that will need buffs instead of nerfs. Why ravage the current meta with a release of new cards that are way too powerful? It makes way more sense to release a set that doesn't warp the current meta, even if some of them need a buff to be more useful. Nobody's perfect, especially a few developers tasked with putting all this together. That's what you seem to be missing. So it's either more likely that nerfs or buffs will be needed, and erring on the side of caution (buffs) is less disruptive and frustrating. Hopefully they'll get a better handle on everything and fewer adjustments will be necessary too.
hafersvideo wrote: Dskysmine wrote: TKC wrote: LakeStone wrote: - Knight of the White Orchid is now a 4/4, down from 6/6 Knight of the White Orchid was too strong, as playing it early made you win most of your fights due to dealing 6 damage with First Strike. Down to 4/4 it should be much more manageable and creatures with 5 Toughness will be able to damage it. It still is a beast when Reinforced![/size] I note when taking Gideon's level 2 power into account, this change has made a rare (KotWO) objectively inferior in every way to an uncommon (Consul's Lieutenant). I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color. Having Defender actually makes KotWO inferior to Consul and Iroas because those two will get a turn to get buffed before they attack, whereas anything that's >3/4 on the other side destroys KotWO before it even gets to attack. Plus your no non rares with more than 3 attack rule is arbitrary and makes no sense. No wonder you don't agree with everyone else's feedback.