Pre-Release (v1.3) Notes (1/29/16)

carlito666

The Dev Team should play a blue card deck in real life.
Nerfing all good cards... can't believe it -.-
Blue is all about control/frustrating enemies/bouncing..!

I hope they won't release one day Vizzerdrix as a mythic lol

Unknown

TKC wrote:

LakeStone wrote:

- Knight of the White Orchid is now a 4/4, down from 6/6
Knight of the White Orchid was too strong, as playing it early made you win most of your fights due to dealing 6 damage with First Strike. Down to 4/4 it should be much more manageable and creatures with 5 Toughness will be able to damage it. It still is a beast when Reinforced![/size]

I note when taking Gideon's level 2 power into account, this change has made a rare (KotWO) objectively inferior in every way to an uncommon (Consul's Lieutenant).

I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color.

TKC

Dskysmine wrote:

I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color.

It does, but 3 power isn't really hard to come by. Although I will say that the turn it takes to apply vigilance has bitten me in the **** more than once.

The Consul doesn't need a nerf and "who rares wins" just turns people off. Yes, there's always going to be some of that, but making every good card a rare is just annoying. My point was rather that KotWO needs a cost decrease.

Remember, Consul enters play as a 4/3. Red can easily burn it, black has a 3 mana common that destroys it, green's all about the creatures and blue...well, used to be able to bounce it, but most likely can't anymore. That's not a problem with Consul, though, but a problem with the implementation of the bounce nerf.

paralistalon

I have to give credit for these changes. I don't think this kills blue. Except for rare cases, you can still bounce the opponent's creature the turn they put them into play. And does this nerf really mean you won't be able to continue to get 1000 winning streaks against the **** AI? The AI will never hold back cards to block you, and since you ONLY play against the AI... Also, I think people have to stop making such direct comparisons to the source game. Magic PQ has a very different set of rules. Like, since when can a single bounce spell return 8 thopter tokens to your hand?

Silentmbb

paralistalon wrote:

Like, since when can a single bounce spell return 8 thopter tokens to your hand?

Echoing Truth. Yes, they don't go to you hand, but whatever.

madwren

TKC wrote:

Dskysmine wrote:

I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color.

It does, but 3 power isn't really hard to come by. Although I will say that the turn it takes to apply vigilance has bitten me in the **** more than once.

The Consul doesn't need a nerf and "who rares wins" just turns people off. Yes, there's always going to be some of that, but making every good card a rare is just annoying. My point was rather that KotWO needs a cost decrease.

Remember, Consul enters play as a 4/3. Red can easily burn it, black has a 3 mana common that destroys it, green's all about the creatures and blue...well, used to be able to bounce it, but most likely can't anymore. That's not a problem with Consul, though, but a problem with the implementation of the bounce nerf.

What Black common? If you mean Reave Soul, that's 3 power, not toughness. Am I missing another card?

Unknown

Oh no, Gideon is now objectively worse at level 8 than he is at level 1.

What is the point of having a mana cost increase to what should be a increase in power from leveling up?

While most people would agree that Gideon's 1 was too powerful, you should look at the effect rather than the cost.

6 mana for +1/+1 is worse than pretty much any usable buff spell or support though, and 9 mana is a joke.

Even more so than before leveling your pw is a bad idea. Please allow players to de level their planes walkers.

The nerf to bounce is absolutely not the right way to go about it. Blue is supposed to have control, not only be able to control when their opponent allows it. Instead you should have created a way to selectively discard instead of forcing blue to wait until they can bounce. Ugh.

In addition taking away blues one self bounce is a step in the wrong direction I think.

Also, the Angels tomb nerf is extremely disappointing to me. Not only does it literally make the speed objectives impossible, even with absolutely perfect cascades, it removes something for Johnny. Combos are a great thing in mtg and I really think u guys are way overthinking the balance. Instead work on ai or every match is still a joke.

theBeard

As a Jace player some of these changes definitely made me cringe, while I understand balancing is a necessary evil in games like these, I have to agree with several others here that the bounce mechanic was hit too hard. Hopefully this will be monitored on how it actually affects the game, and I'll probably start working on some of the other planeswalkers in the mean time. Other than that awesome game, and thank you for continuing to add new content!

Unknown

I also wanted to point out that knight of the orchid was good because of his first strike, not because of his 6/6.

By not addressing that with the nerf now you end up having a 4/4 for 16 which is pretty hideous for rare. He needs to be 12-14 mana or he is almost entirely worse than consuls lieutenant. Who is a 5/4 for 12 with first strike. Hmm...

You still don't realize why your current creature meta is lacking. Let me break it down.

First strike + defender/berserker instantly wins games because you cannot decide to attack in waves, nor can u decide not to block. You have yugiohs combat system in magic body, and that doesn't bode well.

Combat damage does not regenerate, making wall creatures utterly pointless and also way too expensive. You put too much mana cost on the defender keyword. In truth pretty much zero defenders are worth using, purely because they are defenders. The ones worth using are worth because they have reach and are appropriately costed.

Because a cards usefulness depends entirely on their efficiency for damage/cost. You can see why toughness is pointless and you only want things that will do the most damage over the most rounds. That means you want only the most efficient creatures, or first strike.

Hp pools are wayyyy too big and skew how magic works. If u have like 80 hp games take a lot longer. In Magic a 2/2 first turn drop immediately puts a 10 round timer on your head. A 6/6 that isn't removed is immediately a game ender. But since hp pools are so vast, control is far more important and the best planeswalkers are the ones with extended board control, which are jace and Gideon. This is why they are dominant.

So this game is very different than mtg, and you should take care while doing card translations because we're playing an entirely different game here.

Unknown

pandabear wrote:

I also wanted to point out that knight of the orchid was good because of his first strike, not because of his 6/6.

By not addressing that with the nerf now you end up having a 4/4 for 16 which is pretty hideous for rare. He needs to be 12-14 mana or he is almost entirely worse than consuls lieutenant. Who is a 5/4 for 12 with first strike. Hmm...

You still don't realize why your current creature meta is lacking. Let me break it down.

First strike + defender/berserker instantly wins games because you cannot decide to attack in waves, nor can u decide not to block. You have yugiohs combat system in magic body, and that doesn't bode well.

Combat damage does not regenerate, making wall creatures utterly pointless and also way too expensive. You put too much mana cost on the defender keyword. In truth pretty much zero defenders are worth using, purely because they are defenders. The ones worth using are worth because they have reach and are appropriately costed.

Because a cards usefulness depends entirely on their efficiency for damage/cost. You can see why toughness is pointless and you only want things that will do the most damage over the most rounds. That means you want only the most efficient creatures, or first strike.

Hp pools are wayyyy too big and skew how magic works. If u have like 80 hp games take a lot longer. In Magic a 2/2 first turn drop immediately puts a 10 round timer on your head. A 6/6 that isn't removed is immediately a game ender. But since hp pools are so vast, control is far more important and the best planeswalkers are the ones with extended board control, which are jace and Gideon. This is why they are dominant.

So this game is very different than mtg, and you should take care while doing card translations because we're playing an entirely different game here.

Good analysis!

I don't know if I fully agree with your opinion of defenders, but you make some excellent points.

Meto5000

The devs do not seem to have a clear understanding of what makes a card or Planeswalker powerful. Gideon isn't overpowered because he can give creatures lifelink/first strike/whatever, he's overpowered because he can make every single creature he cats have defender (or vigilance or whatever). He's overpowered because every creature he casts can be a threat. Gideon is overpowered because he has access to the 3 most overpowered abilities in the game: Defender, First Strike and Vigilance (in that order).

I find it absolutely laughable that the devs think anyone with a hint of game sense cares that they changed the costs of his 2nd and 3rd planeswalker abilities. Anyone who casts either of them instead of good ol' ability #1 is making things more difficult for themselves.

I think 6 planeswalker mana for JUST Vigilance is a good deal, and raising the mana cost of abilities on level instead of buffing them is a horrible mechanic. Leveling an ability should be a STRAIGHT upgrade. You're making it so that people don't want to level their characters and that's bad and you should feel bad. Optimally, the ability should look like this:

Level 1 (6 mana): Vigilance

Level 2 (6 mana):Vigilance, +1/+1

Level 3 (6 mana): Vigilance, +1/+1, Flying

I know my man Panda is against the +1/+1 for 6 cost, but honestly it's not like it's 6 normal mana. By the time you cast your first creature you'll already have minimum 2-3 planeswalker mana just by matching normal colors. Since Planeswalker mana accumulates independently and can only be used for 3 things (or 1 in the case of Gideon) it makes it a lot easier to generate a stockpile of it.

Now lets talk about how horrible your Jace changes are. Just imagine Jace has a handful of cards he is 100% unable to cast with no way to discard because the opponent has his hand full. Yep - your changes will make it so things like this will happen frequently. Man...I am so freaking disappointed in you guys at Hibernum now. I honestly gave you the benefit of the doubt that the reason the game was released with such a lack of polish was due to pressure from D3GO but now I'm not convinced you guys fully grasp how your game, not paper MTG, actually plays. You even mentioned that you're working to make sure Blue has the worst creatures...*shaking my head*. Supports that can easily be destroyed (especially now), and spells that are dead in your hand with no way to discard them, means even Blue needs creatures that are on par with the other decks. Blue creatures are generally weaker in Paper because things like counterspells and instant speed responses exist. A Blue "permission" type paper deck might only need 2 creature spells in a 60 card deck in order to kill their opponent once they're locked down. That kind of thing can't happen in this game. Opponents don't die unless you attack them. Supports were fragile before and even more so with the update and bounce effects can no longer even be reliably cast.

Please rethink the bounce nerf, please rethink the Gideon nerf. Both need rebalancing but your solutions are misguided at best.

Meto5000

pandabear wrote:

First strike + defender/berserker instantly wins games because you cannot decide to attack in waves, nor can u decide not to block. You have yugiohs combat system in magic body, and that doesn't bode well.

I like that they nerfed White Orchid but didn't touch the Uncommon Consul's Lieutenant card that is 100% better now. a 12 mana 4/3 (ps toughness is almost irrelevant with a first striker card with that much power) that has renown 1, so pretty much always a 5/4 creature AND buffs your other attackers by 1/1. I mean, ****, White Orchid's defender is almost meaningless after a single buff from Gideon anyways. I already thought Consul's Lieutenant was the better card before the nerf!

pandabear wrote:

Combat damage does not regenerate, making wall creatures utterly pointless and also way too expensive. You put too much mana cost on the defender keyword. In truth pretty much zero defenders are worth using, purely because they are defenders. The ones worth using are worth because they have reach and are appropriately costed.

I think Defender (Vigilance/Reach) are all super powerful abilities. They allow creatures to attack the other player while preventing your opponents from attacking you. Defender is the only way to reliably kill your opponents creatures while still dealing combat damage to the player. Not only that, but creatures with defender are miles better than typical blockers in paper MtG. I have rounds where I not only block THREE of my opponents creatures but I kill all three of them - all with a single creature!

I think Berserker (even with first strike) is usually terrible. There are very few times when I wish I could attack a creature instead of a player. And you can't even control which creature is attacked.

Unknown

Over the weekend I decided to finally finish story mode and objectives. I took notice of the number of times the AI wacked my supports the same round I cast them and the frequency at which this occurred was disheartening in light of the upcoming nerf to Claustrophobia and Suppression Bonds. Each time it happened, regardless of the support or PW I was playing, I thought of how crippled those 2 cards will be given they are going to be both easier to destroy and more expensive to cast.

Unknown

Panda both the consul and the knight should be white weenies with first strike. That's what feels white and isn't overpowered. A consul with 2/1 costing 5 mana and a knight with vigilance and 2/2 for 6 or maybe 7 would feel a lot more white and decent for this meta game. Then they wouldn't need to nerf Gideon at all.

Unknown

Dskysmine wrote:

hafersvideo wrote:

If you wanted an actual challenge they would have to improve the AI. Even with good stuff the AI mistakes make it easy to win. And, lucky for you it's even easier to trounce white decks while the AI waits for 16 mana to play a 4/4 and then another 9 pw mana to pump it 1 and you can just sit back and laugh while you burn it all down with Chandra's cheap burn spells and endless burn ability.

I understand that for some, the goal is to login to forums and dickwave whenever possible. It is the internet after all. I had just hoped my honest response to the news would be met with less presumptions and arrogance despite any disagreement.

I disagree that continual nerfing is a good strategy, particularly with the PWs. You want to bump KotWO down to an Uncommon (it's no better than Irosa in a W deck now), that's fine. I wish I had pulled the rare that the "non-niche" players play, but nothing really lost. But me not wanting to level up Gideon now, on purpose, is a problem. The curve is too steep for what the ability does and it's better to have the cheaper options. This was already a problem with a couple other PWs, and now you've added another. I've never played another PQ game, and maybe that's the way you want it, but it makes no sense to me. Cards should be balanced before release and error on the side of caution that would require buffs, not nerfs.

Not even MtG official releases cards on the side of requiring buffs... Cards that are not good just don't see play... That's pretty much how it goes. I disagree entirely that they are supposed to be that careful. I just wish they could be more responsive to actual bugs in the game.
I also agree that blue and white were just too overpowered but I don't understand why the bounce effect will stop working if the hand is full. Is it so hard to implement a discard if more than x at end of turn? It will make blue bounce only decent against Aggro decks and useless against any other. Bouncing of tokens should still serve as destruction, not sure how it will be in this new release. Also now that angel Tomb is gone I am at a loss on what strategy to go to win the speed objectives which are the only ones I am missing.

Just because this game uses MtG source material, you think that's a good comparison? Wizards has the resources, people, and experience to test the **** out of each new release of cards. To say they don't release cards erring on the side of requiring buffs is mind-numingly false and riddled with logical fallacies. Not only is this game mechanically different, but it's digital which is very different from releasing a paper based game, which I believe MtG still is. I was going to go into dissecting that, but after reading your comment, I have to ask do you really think that Wizards do not painstakingly and methodically develop and adjust cards each and every set to make absolutely sure that not a single card is too powerful (or too broken as the mtg kids say) in any format they care about? They absolutely make sure cards aren't in need of a nerf, because the only nerf bat they have in their arsenal is a ban hammer. Do you see them banning this many cards after a set release? Or, umm, any? Makes you think (I hope).

Now, if you actually consider how this is a digital only game, with developers, fewer play testers and more demanding timelines considering the coding and what not, it is perfectly reasonable to expect adjustments regularly. Since it is a digital game, with other games that are similar, and those games have periodic adjustments, I can't help but look at those other games with their successes and failures, as well as my experience playing them, and think yes, I would much rather see sets of cards released that will need buffs instead of nerfs. Why ravage the current meta with a release of new cards that are way too powerful? It makes way more sense to release a set that doesn't warp the current meta, even if some of them need a buff to be more useful. Nobody's perfect, especially a few developers tasked with putting all this together. That's what you seem to be missing. So it's either more likely that nerfs or buffs will be needed, and erring on the side of caution (buffs) is less disruptive and frustrating. Hopefully they'll get a better handle on everything and fewer adjustments will be necessary too.

TKC

madwren wrote:

What Black common? If you mean Reave Soul, that's 3 power, not toughness. Am I missing another card?

Whoops, yeah - my bad (not a black player, just scanned the cards). Looks like Cruel Revival is their best option then - but that will pretty much kill anything (it's way better than Turn to Frog, for example - now there's a rare that doesn't deserve the name).

Unknown

Dskysmine wrote:

TKC wrote:

LakeStone wrote:

- Knight of the White Orchid is now a 4/4, down from 6/6
Knight of the White Orchid was too strong, as playing it early made you win most of your fights due to dealing 6 damage with First Strike. Down to 4/4 it should be much more manageable and creatures with 5 Toughness will be able to damage it. It still is a beast when Reinforced![/size]

I note when taking Gideon's level 2 power into account, this change has made a rare (KotWO) objectively inferior in every way to an uncommon (Consul's Lieutenant).

I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color.

Having Defender actually makes KotWO inferior to Consul and Iroas because those two will get a turn to get buffed before they attack, whereas anything that's >3/4 on the other side destroys KotWO before it even gets to attack. Plus your no non rares with more than 3 attack rule is arbitrary and makes no sense. No wonder you don't agree with everyone else's feedback.

Unknown

Silentmbb wrote:

paralistalon wrote:

Like, since when can a single bounce spell return 8 thopter tokens to your hand?

Echoing Truth. Yes, they don't go to you hand, but whatever.

Displacement wave for only two blue comes immediately to mind. Unless you're focusing on the 'to hand' part, in which case I think a token technically goes to hand but then disappears as a state based effect.

Unknown

hafersvideo wrote:

Dskysmine wrote:

hafersvideo wrote:

If you wanted an actual challenge they would have to improve the AI. Even with good stuff the AI mistakes make it easy to win. And, lucky for you it's even easier to trounce white decks while the AI waits for 16 mana to play a 4/4 and then another 9 pw mana to pump it 1 and you can just sit back and laugh while you burn it all down with Chandra's cheap burn spells and endless burn ability.

I understand that for some, the goal is to login to forums and dickwave whenever possible. It is the internet after all. I had just hoped my honest response to the news would be met with less presumptions and arrogance despite any disagreement.

I disagree that continual nerfing is a good strategy, particularly with the PWs. You want to bump KotWO down to an Uncommon (it's no better than Irosa in a W deck now), that's fine. I wish I had pulled the rare that the "non-niche" players play, but nothing really lost. But me not wanting to level up Gideon now, on purpose, is a problem. The curve is too steep for what the ability does and it's better to have the cheaper options. This was already a problem with a couple other PWs, and now you've added another. I've never played another PQ game, and maybe that's the way you want it, but it makes no sense to me. Cards should be balanced before release and error on the side of caution that would require buffs, not nerfs.

Not even MtG official releases cards on the side of requiring buffs... Cards that are not good just don't see play... That's pretty much how it goes. I disagree entirely that they are supposed to be that careful. I just wish they could be more responsive to actual bugs in the game.
I also agree that blue and white were just too overpowered but I don't understand why the bounce effect will stop working if the hand is full. Is it so hard to implement a discard if more than x at end of turn? It will make blue bounce only decent against Aggro decks and useless against any other. Bouncing of tokens should still serve as destruction, not sure how it will be in this new release. Also now that angel Tomb is gone I am at a loss on what strategy to go to win the speed objectives which are the only ones I am missing.

Just because this game uses MtG source material, you think that's a good comparison? Wizards has the resources, people, and experience to test the **** out of each new release of cards. To say they don't release cards erring on the side of requiring buffs is mind-numingly false and riddled with logical fallacies. Not only is this game mechanically different, but it's digital which is very different from releasing a paper based game, which I believe MtG still is. I was going to go into dissecting that, but after reading your comment, I have to ask do you really think that Wizards do not painstakingly and methodically develop and adjust cards each and every set to make absolutely sure that not a single card is too powerful (or too broken as the mtg kids say) in any format they care about? They absolutely make sure cards aren't in need of a nerf, because the only nerf bat they have in their arsenal is a ban hammer. Do you see them banning this many cards after a set release? Or, umm, any? Makes you think (I hope).

Now, if you actually consider how this is a digital only game, with developers, fewer play testers and more demanding timelines considering the coding and what not, it is perfectly reasonable to expect adjustments regularly. Since it is a digital game, with other games that are similar, and those games have periodic adjustments, I can't help but look at those other games with their successes and failures, as well as my experience playing them, and think yes, I would much rather see sets of cards released that will need buffs instead of nerfs. Why ravage the current meta with a release of new cards that are way too powerful? It makes way more sense to release a set that doesn't warp the current meta, even if some of them need a buff to be more useful. Nobody's perfect, especially a few developers tasked with putting all this together. That's what you seem to be missing. So it's either more likely that nerfs or buffs will be needed, and erring on the side of caution (buffs) is less disruptive and frustrating. Hopefully they'll get a better handle on everything and fewer adjustments will be necessary too.

Don't understand the whole first paragraph... I am talking about not making buffs and you about not nerfing... ? A game that needs buffs is a boring game. Imagine a game where the only ability is flying and all creatures have 10 mana per power. If nothing stands out there's no drive to exploit. In the end I don't think buffing or nerfing are good, I'm just saying that nerfing is actually easier because players can show the brokenness. If a card isn't used how do they know what buff to put?

Unknown

hafersvideo wrote:

Dskysmine wrote:

TKC wrote:

LakeStone wrote:

- Knight of the White Orchid is now a 4/4, down from 6/6
Knight of the White Orchid was too strong, as playing it early made you win most of your fights due to dealing 6 damage with First Strike. Down to 4/4 it should be much more manageable and creatures with 5 Toughness will be able to damage it. It still is a beast when Reinforced![/size]

I note when taking Gideon's level 2 power into account, this change has made a rare (KotWO) objectively inferior in every way to an uncommon (Consul's Lieutenant).

I dont have the Knight. Doesn't it already come with defender? The consul will cost a bit more cause it needs Gideon's ability to get defender. The consul prolly needs some nerfing though. There shouldn't be any non rare with first strike and more than 3 attack in any color.

Having Defender actually makes KotWO inferior to Consul and Iroas because those two will get a turn to get buffed before they attack, whereas anything that's >3/4 on the other side destroys KotWO before it even gets to attack. Plus your no non rares with more than 3 attack rule is arbitrary and makes no sense. No wonder you don't agree with everyone else's feedback.

I never said I don't agree with everyone else's feedback. I was questioning about a card I don't own. I only have the consul and I use it frequently I always give him vigilance with either planeswalker or the supports so I assumed that with the knight the fact that it comes already with it would make it better.
I suggested already that making them white weenies feels more like white... If you don't agree it's your prerogative. I play with Gideon as my main planeswalker so I was talking about what I see/feel.