POLL: Should Championing Start at Max Level, or 13 Covers?

Tatercat

jobob wrote:

Tatercat wrote:

If that's what keeps the game fun for you, then seriously, more power to you. I like diversity too, even the Heroic events, for that very reason. And even though they are still some of my best characters, I avoid using IF and Cage because I got tired of relying on them, so I get that too.

I am curious, if you don't mind answering: how many 4*'s do you have and how often do you actually use them? I know most aren't really effective at 120 (with a few exception for support focused ones), so the 3*'s and some 2*'s must look more attractive in most fights.

My 4* roster is heavily covered, and I use them all a good bit:

230 - IMHB 5/5/3 ... Primary character for tough PVP/PVE teams
230 - Iceman 5/5/2 ... Primary character for tough PVP/PVE teams
220 - Jean Grey 5/3/5 ... Primary character for tough PVP/PVE teams
210 - XFW 5/5/3 ... Use regularly, like to pair with Hood, MNMags, or when I'm short a black user
205 - GT 5/3/5 ... Use regularly in PVE
190 - Carnage 5/3/5 ... Use a good bit, fun with Ant-Man or 2 self-healers
190 - SamCap 3/5/5 ... Use a lot in low-level PVE to buff Daken or IF quickly
180 - Cyclops 5/2/5 ... Use regularly, great self-sustaining damage dealer
170 - Devil Dino 5/3/5 ... Use a decent bit, like to combo with KK, OML, or PX who fire automatically due to his super-cheap abilities
170 - Kingpin 5/3/5 ... Use a decent bit, due to his Y/Bk/P actives
170 - Fury 5/5/3 ... Don't use as much as I used to,
170 - X23 5/4/4 ... Use a decent bit, paired with Daken for her purple, and to save Health packs
170 - Deadpool 3/5/4 - Fun character, I throw him in regularly in high-level PVE for his black
170 - Mr F 5/1/5 - Rarely use
160 - Ant Man 3/5/5 - Use a good bit for mid-level PVEs and against specific opponents. Super-fun character who takes a lot of planning, but isn't quick or on the same level of effectiveness as top 4*s.
160 - Prof X 5/3/5 - Use for the occasional mid-level PVE winfinite when I need to clear fast, or with characters who tank for him and have cheap actives (like DD)
160 - Rulk 3/2/5 - Don't use him much, need some covers
155 - Thing 4/3/2 - Don't use him much, need some covers
150 - Elektra 5/3/5 - Used a fair amount in multi-round PVE's... like to pair her with Patch
150 - Star Lord 5/4/4 - Used sparingly
130 - GR 4/3/4 - Use a decent bit, especially against someone like a buffed Juggs who is devastated by his black
120 - IW 3/5/5 - Used sparingly, sometimes pairing with QS
120 - Cho 5/0/2 - Only used in features so far
106 - Venom 0/0/3 - Only used in features so far
70 - Miles 0/0/1 - Only used in features so far


So it's not like I wouldn't consider myself a vet, or that I'm not well into the game. Ant-Man and SamCap are two of my favorites to use, I just never planned on taking them to max level. But there's enough ISO in that roster to make a max level 4* I am sure (maybe even a couple?). I do have 9 maxed 3*, but for the most part it looks about the same. Same story with my 1 maxed 2*... and I think most people would agree I am past the 2* - 3* transition.

jobob is my name in-game also, so you can see my roster (Star Force is the alliance)

Thanks for taking the time to do that. You're not an abusing anything.

When I talk about abusers (and I think others do as well), I mean those with fully covered characters in the 2* - 4* range, all of them, at lvl 94 or 120 or 166. Uniformly across the board, no deviation. those are the ones people hate, especially when they litter the top 10 of a PVE event. Because they're not taking the same scaled 300+ Headbutts we're taking to get there with our max leveled rosters. But they ARE getting the rewards we need for our level of play and then just sitting on them on a lvl 94 roster while they keep using whatever the latest 2-3* Winfinite is. And those are the ones people (and devs) are worrying about when that max lvl requirement was made.

slidecage

Jamie Madrox wrote:

notamutant wrote:

One of the main pluses that the devs gave in the interview is that RNG would give people useless covers and they wouldn't be happy with it. Requiring people to be max level does NOT solve that problem. The covers will still be useless for a non maxed character. RNG still can suck the life out of a person just as much as before. This only helps whales that have ISO maxed every character already.

Except the covers are not useless. They're still worth ISO if sold. They just can't be used to champion people.

BUT if someone who has a 166 compair to 120.. person turn cover into champ and gets 25HP while the 120 gets what 500 ISO.... it would be nice if you could roll the covers into anyone and everyone could get the rewards 166 level or Not.

Ducky

slidecage wrote:

Jamie Madrox wrote:

notamutant wrote:

One of the main pluses that the devs gave in the interview is that RNG would give people useless covers and they wouldn't be happy with it. Requiring people to be max level does NOT solve that problem. The covers will still be useless for a non maxed character. RNG still can suck the life out of a person just as much as before. This only helps whales that have ISO maxed every character already.

Except the covers are not useless. They're still worth ISO if sold. They just can't be used to champion people.

BUT if someone who has a 166 compair to 120.. person turn cover into champ and gets 25HP while the 120 gets what 500 ISO.... it would be nice if you could roll the covers into anyone and everyone could get the rewards 166 level or Not.

Or you could invest the iso the person with the maxed character did to get the rewards that they are getting?

Stop expecting rewards for things you haven't worked for. They invested into their roster to be able to get the rewards they are getting.

jobob

DuckyV wrote:

slidecage wrote:

Jamie Madrox wrote:

notamutant wrote:

One of the main pluses that the devs gave in the interview is that RNG would give people useless covers and they wouldn't be happy with it. Requiring people to be max level does NOT solve that problem. The covers will still be useless for a non maxed character. RNG still can suck the life out of a person just as much as before. This only helps whales that have ISO maxed every character already.

Except the covers are not useless. They're still worth ISO if sold. They just can't be used to champion people.

BUT if someone who has a 166 compair to 120.. person turn cover into champ and gets 25HP while the 120 gets what 500 ISO.... it would be nice if you could roll the covers into anyone and everyone could get the rewards 166 level or Not.

Or you could invest the iso the person with the maxed character did to get the rewards that they are getting?

Stop expecting rewards for things you haven't worked for. They invested into their roster to be able to get the rewards they are getting.

No one is asking to get rewards they haven't worked for... The point is the person with no 166's may have invested more than the person with some. You shouldn't be penalized for spreading the ISO around. This system should find a way to work for all players who have put time and work in, regardless of playstyle.

Redrobot30

This does reward people who have earned those levels and maxed their characters for sure. You get rewards for putting in the "work". People will always play the game the way they want to, casual, whale etc. Whatever floats your boat. Clearly this is a supposed to be a way to extend the life of the game and I'm fine with that. I don't need maxed out 5*s to enjoy playing this game and I'll probably never get there even playing as much as I do.

Two additional things:

When they buff this group of 3*s in the near future they have to reward more Iso to help raise these characters.

I think the majority of us who have maxed 3*s only raised about a third if that of them to 166. Whether that's due to the Iso cost or the character not worth maxing or just moving onto the next tier. More Iso would give more incentive to max the lower class characters.

Second, just get rid of the expiration date on the cards in your queue. Gives players the sub goals of eventually maxing and Championing characters and not getting disgruntled about selling dupe covers from characters that you might have at 5/5/2.

Personally I will Champion some characters with no problems if the rewards to do so are worth it.

Ducky

jobob wrote:

snip

Yea, no. All that system does is allow people to continue to softcap and gain the rewards while others have maxed their characters to do so. You want the gains from championing a character, then max it. Plain and simple.

You could keep a level 40 3* with max covers and get rewards for championing if that was allowed. Not cool.

westnyy2

I'm with Ducky. D3 got it right. The toons need to be maxed. I have about half of the 3 stars fully maxed and all the rest soft capped. I don't believe I should be able to champion my soft capped characters as well. It defeats the whole purpose.

A lot remains to be seen but I believe this is a huge positive direction for the game. There is always something to do. There should be no endgame. As people keep hitting walls and their progress stopped it gets frustrating and boring. This way, I'll always have something to work towards.

jobob

DuckyV wrote:

jobob wrote:

snip

Yea, no. All that system does is allow people to continue to softcap and gain the rewards while others have maxed their characters to do so. You want the gains from championing a character, then max it. Plain and simple.

You could keep a level 40 3* with max covers and get rewards for championing if that was allowed. Not cool.

I get the problem with that system, but it still sucks. You should be rewarded for investing your ISO, regardless of which characters you put it into.

notamutant

DuckyV wrote:

jobob wrote:

snip

Yea, no. All that system does is allow people to continue to softcap and gain the rewards while others have maxed their characters to do so. You want the gains from championing a character, then max it. Plain and simple.

You could keep a level 40 3* with max covers and get rewards for championing if that was allowed. Not cool.

You are missing the point. You don't need to get the rewards of championing. You should be able to buy x number of levels with iso and x number of levels with covers. Obviously the coding would be much harder for this, but as it currently is, you are not solving the number one problem they were claiming this would address: getting useless covers. And since this was already mentioned before, I want to clarify what I mean by useless. I mean if you have to sell it because it has no current use for you, it is useless. So if I have a level 250 HB with 13 covers, but don't have the iso to max him to 270, that extra cover is useless. If I have an Iron Fist with 5/5/2 in the covers and pull another green cover, that cover is useless. So this update doesn't resolve the feeling of **** RNG numbers for most people. If you get your 20th IW, will this really make any difference for you? Are you going to level up IW to level 270 to benefit from her extra covers, or are you still going to be annoyed with another useless cover? If you pull your 10th purple Nick Fury cover when he still only has 2 yellow, even if you have the iso to max him, are you going to be happy because of this update? No, the update does nothing to solve these bad luck pulls. So RNG can still screw you over and make it feel like you aren't progressing.

wymtime

I voted for option 3 that it should be max level, but the need to seriously start making more ISO available. Am playing PVP, PVP, LR, Sim and I can maybe take 1 4* up every other week if I don't put ISO into he 4* in DPDQ or the buffed 4* of the week. Now if I am going to use championing instead of selling covers for ISO I will be leveling up 2-3* characters. Why so I can get some HP, or other small rewards and slightly more ISO overall. This game needs a mass influx of ISO as it should not take this long to level your characters. I have read someone did the numbers that by maxing a champion you will come out ahead on ISO and earn HP and CP and other stuff, but it feels like an infomercial gag.
Place your 2* cover here and watch it grow a level, but wait there is more, you can earn ISO, but wait there's more if you champion now next time you can earn HP, but wait there's more, next level could lead to a CP, but wait.....
I also know they will troll is with a random prize level that will show CP, HP, LT, and give 20 ISO.

Dayv

Honestly, it's too soon for me to answer this poll with any certainty. The feature isn't even live yet.

NewMcG

Here's a way to think of the new feature: It's a way to advance characters that previously couldn't be advanced, not just a way to make "useless" covers more useful across the board.

If you have a 166 3* that's been there for a year, it's been there for a year because there was literally no way to improve it. Any covers you've gotten have been useless to that character. You can sell them, but even the Iso can't do anything for that particular character. It can help elsewhere, but that character was "done", and extra covers were of no value outside duplicating. Now, they have new life.

If you've had a 13 cover, level 120 version of the same character for the last year, you have had a way to advance them: Iso. If you haven't max leveled someone that you've been able to, for whatever reason that may be, that option remains just as available to you. The covers weren't completely "useless" to that character. You could have sold that character's extra covers during that year, and taken the Iso, and put it towards that exact character. If you didn't, well, that's your choice.

We've all prioritized our rosters for leveling, and we should have to live with where our rosters sit. I've got a roster with a good chunk of 3* at 166, only 2 4* maxed, and lots of 13 cover 3* in the 120 range. I didn't consider them the wisest use of my Iso up to this point, so they didn't get leveled. If one of them ends up becoming a powerhouse once they scale beyond 166 with champion levels, I'll probably finish those characters off. Otherwise, I'll continue to take the Iso from those characters' extra covers and spend it where it serves the most purpose for my roster.

(For the record, I do think Iso should be more available across the board. But I can't complain about the way the championing system is set up. Or if it helps, think of chamopioning as buying the ability to re-spec, and characters should be maxed out to be re-specced. Whatever works.)

alphabeta

The Bob The wrote:

They've described this as a system to aid transitioning, so maxed makes sense. If you don't have a 94 roster of 2*s or a 166 roster of 3*s, you're not transitioning. It is always frustrating to hear "It's not for you yet" - remember looking at those XFWs, IWs and Furys only available to the top 2 finishers? - but, in terms of what the change is supposed to do, well, there's not really another way to put it.

(I can't speak to the intent to combat softcapping, and neither can anyone who isn't a Red or equipped with a magical mind-reading Weimaraner, but even if it's there, I can't see it as anything but secondary to the stated purpose)

We can speak to it combatting soft capping being deliberate as in a couple of places it has been publically said in advance by IceIX that it should never be the right answer that not levelling a character is better than levelling it and it was something the where looking to address.

elwhiteninja

Malcrof wrote:

Has to be max level, no point otherwise. Remember the cover levels your character, so who in their right mind would use a 500 or 1k iso cover for a 300iso level....

Max level makes the most sense.. even though i need millions of iso, i 100% agree they did it right.

nah it doesnt all they would need to do is have a "ghost" lvl or something where it is the base + champion. It has no impact on iso costs but raises the hero lvl by 1. For example Dr doom is 535 and lvl 120, you add 2 covers to him. now he is 122 but still can upgrade to 168.

lukewin

jobob wrote:

No one is asking to get rewards they haven't worked for... The point is the person with no 166's may have invested more than the person with some. You shouldn't be penalized for spreading the ISO around. This system should find a way to work for all players who have put time and work in, regardless of playstyle.

The thing is, the system does have a way to work for all players who have put time and work in. What seems to be the disconnect, is when players would get to that point. You seem to be wanting to be able to champion everyone on Day 1 of it's release. You'll have the option to champion 10 of your 3* and one of your 2* on Day 1.

Although you've spread your ISO out to get a diverse roster, that's a benefit that you get for spreading the ISO around. The people that maxed their characters will get the benefit of immediately being able to champion those characters, but they may not have the benefit of having the diverse roster that you have. The option to champion characters is around for everyone, and everyone can eventually do it, once they meet the conditions.

As someone with 0 maxed 4* or 3*, I like how the system looks like it is set up. I've got 10 13 cover 4* at 200, 7 other 4* at 200 and 4 160 4*. All 40 of my 3* are at 140. I can't champion any 3* or 4* on day 1. I've got 206k ISO banked, so I could max 3 3* if I wanted to, but I don't. If I ever do choose to max them, on that day, I'll have the option to champion them.

I will definitely be championing some of my 8 maxed 2*, so I do get to try the championing system on Day 1. As someone who has built up multiple dupes to make use of the "useless" covers, I don't regret that decision and I like the new option that I will have, when I meet the conditions the system has in place.

Sandwichboy

Personally I don't get how people think that being able to champion a character that's fully covered but not fully leveled is asking for handouts. You don't get the bonus levels until you're maxed. If the character isn't maxed yet, those extra covers just help level them up a bit faster. They could easily tie those bonus rewards to levels being gained above the normal maximum and just let you dump a cover to gain a level. You'd still need to have said cover, so it's not like you didn't work for it. If you've got a fully covered HB but haven't worked up the 400k ISO yet and pull another HB from a LT, that's probably saving you 3k ISO right there if you can just bump him with the cover. None of this would be a handout. You'd still need to get the covers somehow, and being ISO starved would suddenly become a little bit less of an issue. Without even needing to increase the reward numbers.

Seriously, please explain how this would be a bad thing.

morph3us

Here's the way I see it. There are two ways in which this could have been set up. The first way is how it is now, where a fully covered character has to be maxed to be championed. The second way is how has been suggested, where you could champion a fully covered character, irrespective of level.

The first way forces you to make decisions. Which characters do you want to champion? Iso is precious, and goodness knows, it costs a small fortune to max out a 4*. In doing so, it adds a certain value to that character - they're not just a resource mine, from which you get rewards, they're a character in whom you've invested in to be a Champion. I've had to level Thing from 250 to 270 in order to Champion him. I wasn't intending initially to take him to 270 - he's a mid-high tier 4*, but he's not in IMHB/JG/Iceman's league, but now I'm going to look at him a bit differently in terms of his value in my roster, because of the investment and choice I've had to make. Likewise, I'm going to have to choose whether I level Fury to 270 from 250 too.

The second way turns all of your character into a resource mine. In this instance, I might as well recruit everybody (even Bagman!), and not level most of them, but keep ploughing covers into them to get Iso, HP, CP, covers, etc. I'd keep all my 2*s that I didn't use at level 15, all my 3* that I didn't use at level 40, etc. In this instance, being a Champion is just another way of extracting resources from the game.

Neither way is necessarily more correct than the other, but it's a design decision by the devs to make a Champion something a little more special than a resource mine, by forcing you to choose whom to Champion. In the end, we're all in the same boat. Everybody has to max level their chosen character before they Champion them, so nobody's disadvantaged by this decision. If someone has a max levelled character ready to go, it's because they've already spent the resources on them.

Sandwichboy

Your second analogy is very flawed. First of all, you're talking about sentiment versus mathematics; this way feels more champion-y because I committed to it, I'm invested in it. Getting emotionally invested in this way is pretty much just marketing. Second, both options are resource sinks; let's not kid ourselves here, even if you could champion anyone with 13 covers you'd still need to pay the ISO cost to do so for each one, which adds up fast. And sure, for 2* characters this would rapidly result in a lot of people having fully championed 2* rosters, but 3 and 4* characters would still be moving up a LOT slower than that, even with the added ability to boost levels with extra covers. You'd still have to get all 13 covers of a character, which takes quite a while even for 3* characters. Just to bump every single 3* to champion status is going to cost 300,000. Even if it was possible to do so for non-maxed out characters, you really think that kind of cost doesn't require careful thought? I think people are getting a very optimistic idea of how fast they'll be getting these characters their extra 100 covers...it's going to take a LONG time for most people, and the only real difference between these two options (aside from sentiment) is that one would at least partially address the crippling ISO shortage the majority of players are in, and the other will make it worse.

morph3us

Of course there's sentiment involved with it. We're talking about a game with superheroes and villains in it. The choice of the word Champion is laden with sentiment. The developers are at liberty to imbue a mechanic with that sort of value if they choose. I won't argue with your choice of the word marketing, that's not an unfair characterisation either. If you want to design a game based on pure mathematics, you might as well be playing Bejeweled, rather than Marvel Puzzle Quest. What I'm trying to say is that the devs appear to have designed the mechanic with that sentiment in mind.

The iso cost for the second is far lower than the first. I don't think anyone thinks that 3* and especially 4* champions are going to level quickly.

NewMcG

Sandwichboy wrote:

Your second analogy is very flawed. First of all, you're talking about sentiment versus mathematics; this way feels more champion-y because I committed to it, I'm invested in it. Getting emotionally invested in this way is pretty much just marketing. Second, both options are resource sinks; let's not kid ourselves here, even if you could champion anyone with 13 covers you'd still need to pay the ISO cost to do so for each one, which adds up fast. And sure, for 2* characters this would rapidly result in a lot of people having fully championed 2* rosters, but 3 and 4* characters would still be moving up a LOT slower than that, even with the added ability to boost levels with extra covers. You'd still have to get all 13 covers of a character, which takes quite a while even for 3* characters. Just to bump every single 3* to champion status is going to cost 300,000. Even if it was possible to do so for non-maxed out characters, you really think that kind of cost doesn't require careful thought? I think people are getting a very optimistic idea of how fast they'll be getting these characters their extra 100 covers...it's going to take a LONG time for most people, and the only real difference between these two options (aside from sentiment) is that one would at least partially address the crippling ISO shortage the majority of players are in, and the other will make it worse.

People's concern over champion maxed 3/4/5* is overblown. Those will take forever. But the way you're wanting it, you could take a 2*, put 13 covers in, level them to 44, spend 50 covers, and have the same "old-maxed" 2* that everyone else has had forever. (This is strictly for comparison of costs for getting a character from 15 to 94 each way. In reality, people wouldn't actually even bother leveling to 44.)

Under the system to this point, most folks have spent (I believe this is roughly the number) 70k Iso to get a 2* to 94. You'd have invested little to nothing to get to 44, and 5k to champion then character. Then instead of spending any Iso to level to 94, the way it's set up now, you actually would receive X amount of HP, Iso, and command points via champion levelling, plus the ability to free re-spec that character. The upfront investment is minimal, and you reap benefits. Nobody would ever level a 2* again. Leave them at level 15, get covers, pay the 5k and get 50 covers worth of rewards. Then when that character hits 50 champion levels, they're done, sell them off and repeat!

This isn't meant to be a 2* loot pinata. It's a way to advance previously "finished" characters and try and breathe a little life into previously stagnant rosters.