Controversial: No character should be able to heal teammates

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

I don't get how people say they want to play more when you see a ton of fatigue in PvE events from grinding the same missions over and over. It's precisely because you can heal that you have these ridiculous level 230X3 battles that you have to do 5 times each because otherwise there's no way to create any kind of separation.

If being able to grind less reduces the amount of iso8 you can get, that can be adjusted game-wide. If you can only play half as much then it would be reasonable to have iso8 be more available to reflect that. D3 monitors the iso8 gain and they're the ones who gets to decide what's an approprpiate rate of iso8 gain anyway, so it's not like whether you have healers or not matter there. They can obviously just reduce PvP match to 20 iso per win too if they don't want you to get so much iso, irrespective of whatever view they may have on healing itself.

Looking at my PvE scores I'm generally ahead of the pack even compared to the forum, and even I am getting a bit tired of events like Heroic Oscorp or Simulator Basics, and I certainly see many of you complaining about they're too grindy (which is totally valid). But they're necessarily that grindy because you can heal. PvP is even worse because players don't have access to level 230 guys that can randomly kill you or your team in one move so that you might actually have to give up. Devil Dino, Bagman, and Punisher is a far more powerful team than any PvP team you'll ever face (and remember Bagman means you don't have Spiderman), so I don't get if people are already tired of grinding in Simulator why they wouldn't get tired of doing the same thing in PvP, which is only worse.

Getting rid of healing will greatly cut down the amount of unnecessary grinding, and by the way, you really don't think D3 knows this? Why do you think Devil Dino shows up with Bagman as a team? It's so that you can't heal! Why does PvP tournament tend to feature a guy doing way too much damage after his character boost? Because you can't heal a guy who is down. They're already aware of this issue and that's why the featured character generally can kill anybody besides himself in one hit, so you have no chance of healing.

I concede you have valid points, however I play as much as I like to have fun. I really don't have time to play as much as I want. I haven't gotten a decent rank in PVE tournaments since IM40 was the prize.

I'd rather they add the new chapters after the prologue to allow us to play at our own pace without the level scaling. Level scaling makes sense in PVE Heroic Mode Tournaments.

Healing really does make a lot of problems

Unknown

rowaasr13 wrote:

Now I'm playing Ascension and FF:Tactics on my phone instead of playing MPQ .

Create a separate save before Riovanes Castle!

Unknown

RangoFett wrote:

rowaasr13 wrote:

Now I'm playing Ascension and FF:Tactics on my phone instead of playing MPQ .

Create a separate save before Riovanes Castle!

Reroll Ramza's to a Pisces birthday and that fight is cakewalk. It's pretty funny your birthday determines how hard the game is. You'd have to be like level 50 to even have a chance of winning that fight if you're the wrong birthday type without resorting to some really cheap tactics.

Unknown

The strength of roster doesn't matter to the problem. You still need some kind of healing to grind Devil Dino without Spiderman fight 5 times in a row. There's just no way you're going to that fight unscathed each time (note: while you can't use Spiderman for this fight, obviously people just take the wounded to another fight later to heal up). But it's becuase you got healing this is why you got to do battles like Devil Dino 5 times in the first place. Since this game is inherently competitive against other players, any advantage you have is also available to all the guys you're competing with and it turns no advantage at all except increasing the amount of grind needed.

If there was some content where the prize is only dependent on the progression, it'd be perfectly fine to have infinite tries on the said encounter. Imagine say a monthly challenge of level 500 Devil Dino + Spiderman + pre nerf Ragnarok for 10000 iso 8, and any character downed from this fight is instantly revived to full health after the battle ends. There's no problem with trying this encounter an infinite number of times and healing is a nonissue, because you're not competing against any other player. You're free to try as many times as you want until you finally win (or give up). But we don't really have content like this. Almost all the big prizes requires you to do well relative to your peers. If you're given infinite tries on an event, then your peers will also have infinite tries as well, and that'd turn into one ugly grindfest.

Like Bugpop said they really should have something similar to the Prologue where you're just trying to beat something at all for the prizes, and you can even have its own rules for that.

Unknown

If the game had an extensive single-player campaign, that would be the main thing I'd play. It might be the only thing I'd play. I held out signing up for pvp for a while, until I hit a wall in the prologue at one point, and I assumed that most of the game would be like the prologue. Back then, heal times never hit 8 hours long, so the healing didn't seem like a big deal.

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

If the game had an extensive single-player campaign, that would be the main thing I'd play. It might be the only thing I'd play. I held out signing up for pvp for a while, until I hit a wall in the prologue at one point, and I assumed that most of the game would be like the prologue. Back then, heal times never hit 8 hours long, so the healing didn't seem like a big deal.

Yea, I wasn't expecting the WHOLE game to be PvP to be honest. Little sad that was the case. And yes, despite it being pve, its still PvP really because in neither situation are you really fighting your opponent and in both you are trying to place against them. I liked the format for the recent heroic, but its clear to me at this point that d3 has no interest in making thier top progress rewards actually obtainable, which means I in turn hate the format for that heroic's rewards. As a real progress reward, it would be cool to get an xforce as a top progress reward. I rememeber being pretty stoked to get a red punisher a while back...and that was actually POSSIBLE. If only 3 players using bots and one crazy homeless guy who found someone's iPhone who died and never disconnected his service can.get those top rewards then the format is broken.

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

If the game had an extensive single-player campaign, that would be the main thing I'd play. It might be the only thing I'd play. I held out signing up for pvp for a while, until I hit a wall in the prologue at one point, and I assumed that most of the game would be like the prologue. Back then, heal times never hit 8 hours long, so the healing didn't seem like a big deal.

What you could do is have a heroic campaign where all the characters are loaned level 300 heroes. That way, you never have to heal them. You can't use your own heroes (and they'd be pretty useless even if you could use it short of perhaps Spiderman/OBW/The Hood/Magneto), and obviously all the enemies will be even more souped versions of your normal foes. There can be a point value to the missions but the reward would solely be progression based, so maybe that pre nerf level 500 Ragnarok is worth 100 point where fighting 3 level 400 Pyros is only 50 points, and you need 2000 points to get that new shiny cover or whatever. Of course, such a campaign would have to last pretty long if not persistent. Maybe it should be like pay 500 HP for access to this for a month or three, and you can complete it at your own pace to whatever progression reward is offered. You'll be free to play as much or as little as you want without worrying about what everyone else is doing.

over_clocked

I don't get it. Healing was never assumed to be a broken game mechanic before scaling and bad matchmaking got introduced, right? But it is somehow now.
Go on, remove healing altogether and only leave health packs, destroy the game like no Rag nerf could do. You're still forgetting that even Spider-Man and oBW can't bring people back from the dead. So OP now that you don't actually need them and other people are finding use for them.
Of course the devs know their thing better than any of us, and thus healing characters will stay. Hopefully not the slow natural healing.
In original PQ, there were 2 healing classes. Out of 4. And you could learn various healing spells. No one called the healers OP... Yes it was a different game and it wasn't as PvP as MPQ, but healing was simply a viable game mechanic and it should be. This is a RPG and if you have healing, you lack something else. I use healing *because* I lack most usable covers. And many people simply use healing to be able to enjoy the game, too.
I want stats on Spidey and oBW usage (specifically their healing abilities) before calling the mechanic completely game-breaking. Spidey's follows from his stun and oBW's also messes up countdown tiles, so it's complicated. I don't mind the amount of healing reduced, I just don't get why we aren't allowed to have AoE healing in the game where there are AoE damage abilities, remove the former = remove the latter. Then remove stuns, any select tile ability becomes random, etc. No one is allowed to have fun even if some people do abuse the system and turn the game into a grindfest (most working people simply don't have time for that). Personally would be grinding pve so much right now thanks to the oh so broken Spidey and oBW, they really make my 3 maxed covers shine and break the game for everyone else (maxed covers are Daken, oBW herself, mStorm), but work is calling.

Bacon Pants

Psykopathic wrote:

ihearthawthats wrote:

I agree with OP.

It may not be a broken mechanic, but it's a boring one imo.

The problem is that healing doesn't really provide in-battle usage. It's an out-of-battle ability which is basically a free health pack. It sounds crazy, but think about it. You rarely use it to actually win a match, you use it to play more matches thereafter the match you actually heal in. Often in dummy matches which allows 24/7 grinding.

I see a lot of good logic here. I use healers in my roster for longevity. I can typically win without them and just heal before final blow.

I use it to win matches often. I will heal before the final blow as well, but the Hard Simulator has almost necessitated the need for a healer on your team. Yes it is possible to beat these opponents without a healer...assuming the board falls your way...but without one, in certain instances you are completely screwed. Examples being any of the ridiculously overpowered Maggia or Hammer attacks.

Unknown

Its not the healing that is broken, its the mechanics that prevent you from playing that need changed. The damage stays, the limited health packs on regeneration timer. That is what causes healers to be on every team, why healers are required for grind sessions. Why people get frustrated and start messing with the clock or looking into ways to cheat the system to heal faster. Always lead with the carrot not the cattle prod.

Some people seem to at least taken to my earlier suggestion that damage is healed at the every fight, except for downed characters. Health packs turn into revives on countdown timer. If you want a more diverse game that is all you need. Healers can and still would be used, but you wouldn't need them to compete.

The only outlier is what happens if you retreat? You would lose points surely in pvp, but say pve against the mooks? You could always retreat if they were going to one shot your team at no penalty. Retreat would need to be changed, maybe it down's a random character instead of % health loss. Just need to retreat faster than the slowest guy eh.

Unknown

Chimaera wrote:

Its not the healing that is broken, its the mechanics that prevent you from playing that need changed. The damage stays, the limited health packs on regeneration timer. That is what causes healers to be on every team, why healers are required for grind sessions. Why people get frustrated and start messing with the clock or looking into ways to cheat the system to heal faster. Always lead with the carrot not the cattle prod.

Some people seem to at least taken to my earlier suggestion that damage is healed at the every fight, except for downed characters. Health packs turn into revives on countdown timer. If you want a more diverse game that is all you need. Healers can and still would be used, but you wouldn't need them to compete.

The only outlier is what happens if you retreat? You would lose points surely in pvp, but say pve against the mooks? You could always retreat if they were going to one shot your team at no penalty. Retreat would need to be changed, maybe it down's a random character instead of % health loss. Just need to retreat faster than the slowest guy eh.

If you always get healed to PvP you're going to look at some absolutely monstrous grind to stay ahead.

The recent changes has been getting people to play less, not more. Here, less really is more. If you have to grind 5 hours to keep your rating in PvP it's going to burn anyone out, or it'll cause people to call shield P2W.

For PvE, there are already significant anti healing mechanisms in there. Notice how often Spiderman shows up on the other side now so that you can't heal? Or that everything you fight is level 230 and can generally take a guy from 100% to 0% in one hit? Those are all anti-healing mechanisms. If there was no healing in the game, you wouldn't need guys that can do 100% of your health in one hit because just wearing your team down is penalty enough.

At any rate from the PvE point of view, the easiest way is just give you all loaned heroes for a particular PvE event. If your entire team is loaned, then they are always 100% health for every single fight and you can't abuse it for PvP because they aren't your characters, and you either aren't allowed to use your characters or those guys can be so powerful that there would be no point to ever use your own guys (e.g. they can all be level 230 or higher). Such content should place the emphasis on progression, not placement, because if such content has placement-based reward it'd just be a monstrous grind as well. Yes, progression is inherently a grind, but then at least you can do it at your own pace, assuming that the timeframe the said content is available is reasonable.

Unknown

The enemy Spiderman is to block you from using 2AP stun lock, don't be a kidder.

They are already trying to make it impossible in PvP to climb the ladder "in theory" being able to attack anyone. Obviously it doesn't work like that even if it was claimed to be changed. The scarier teams get attacked less, you will still avoid the teams that will down your characters or at least skip less and "give it a shot" as one might say.

Changing the system to revives and healing after battles I do not think would be all that different. I still lose max health characters to cascades all the time, I can't be the only one, healer or not. If I do not shield in a pvp event I will get mangled until my points are a shadow of their former self. There is no shortage of people to not attack me that is for sure. If you want less chance of being downed, run a beefier team or a healer, whatever.

I see your opinion but look at it from a different perspective. For the new player or the player with no access to a healer, or the player who doesn't want to run with OBW or Spidey, how competitive are they? Can they win a Tourney? Unless there MMR is 100% seed teams not likely. How many people get frustrated with this mechanic or quit playing because of it? No idea, just making a point. Anything that promotes game play over being forced to play something else is a good thing.

I am a proud OBW user out of necessity. The strike tile enhancement is just a bonus.

Unknown

The opposing team almost never gets heals off anyway. It's very rare that OBW is alive long enough to collect 9 blues to cast Anti-Grav. And with Spidey, just match yellows so he can't heal. Admittedly, he's a bit tougher to block because your first priority is grabbing blues from him. But I'd say only 1 out of 10 fights does the other team get off a heal. (And now that I've said that they'll probably start getting heals off 3 times a match )

So if it's just my team healing, usually so I can keep going without wasting health packs, what's the problem? That's definitely not the key factor in winning a match. And if it is for you, you need to reconsider some of your strategies. You will still get beaten by other teams with or without heals, simply because an attacking team has the advantage and rarely loses.

Unknown

pumkin wrote:

The opposing team almost never gets heals off anyway. It's very rare that OBW is alive long enough to collect 9 blues to cast Anti-Grav. And with Spidey, just match yellows so he can't heal. Admittedly, he's a bit tougher to block because your first priority is grabbing blues from him. But I'd say 1 out of 10 fights does the other team get off a heal.

So if it's just my team healing, usually so I can keep going without wasting health packs, what's the problem? That's definitely not the key factor in winning a match. And if it is for you, you need to reconsider some of your strategies. You will still get beaten by other teams with or without heals, simply because an attacking team has the advantage and rarely loses.

They seriously need to send videos of when your team is utterly abused by enemy healers and never got any heal off yourself. Maybe then people will realize that healing offers you no advantage whatsoever because at the level where you have Spiderman, you're also fighting opponents that have Spiderman too.

What's sad is people don't realize the stuff they complain about are all self inflicted. If they started adding IDDQD for godmode which prevents you from taking any damage for the rest of the fight, I think most people would think that'd be a great thing, without realizing that every opponent can do exactly the same thing back to them and you'd still be exactly back to where you started in PvP, and in PvE you'd just be looking at that guy who was playing 20 hours continously that you're never going to catch even though all your characters are utterly unkillable.

People are saying 'but XYZ is good for me', without realizing that what's good for you is also good for your opponent too. Every unfair advantage you think you may have by gaming the system, your characters are just as often on the receiving end of the said advantage. In fact, the higher your placement is, the more likely your characters will be on the receiving end of the said abuse in PvP.

Unknown

pumkin wrote:

The opposing team almost never gets heals off anyway. It's very rare that OBW is alive long enough to collect 9 blues to cast Anti-Grav. And with Spidey, just match yellows so he can't heal. Admittedly, he's a bit tougher to block because your first priority is grabbing blues from him. But I'd say only 1 out of 10 fights does the other team get off a heal. (And now that I've said that they'll probably start getting heals off 3 times a match )

So if it's just my team healing, usually so I can keep going without wasting health packs, what's the problem? That's definitely not the key factor in winning a match. And if it is for you, you need to reconsider some of your strategies. You will still get beaten by other teams with or without heals, simply because an attacking team has the advantage and rarely loses.

I usually ignore spider-man until the end.

Only one time was it bad for me. In No-Holds-Barred Elite I had a spider-man that wouldn't die. Took too long to kill. Didn't lose points but it was a close call. He must have healed like 3 times and had unending webs and his placement of shield tiles was hard to reach.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

pumkin wrote:

The opposing team almost never gets heals off anyway. It's very rare that OBW is alive long enough to collect 9 blues to cast Anti-Grav. And with Spidey, just match yellows so he can't heal. Admittedly, he's a bit tougher to block because your first priority is grabbing blues from him. But I'd say 1 out of 10 fights does the other team get off a heal.

So if it's just my team healing, usually so I can keep going without wasting health packs, what's the problem? That's definitely not the key factor in winning a match. And if it is for you, you need to reconsider some of your strategies. You will still get beaten by other teams with or without heals, simply because an attacking team has the advantage and rarely loses.

They seriously need to send videos of when your team is utterly abused by enemy healers and never got any heal off yourself. Maybe then people will realize that healing offers you no advantage whatsoever because at the level where you have Spiderman, you're also fighting opponents that have Spiderman too.

What's sad is people don't realize the stuff they complain about are all self inflicted. If they started adding IDDQD for godmode which prevents you from taking any damage for the rest of the fight, I think most people would think that'd be a great thing, without realizing that every opponent can do exactly the same thing back to them and you'd still be exactly back to where you started in PvP, and in PvE you'd just be looking at that guy who was playing 20 hours continously that you're never going to catch even though all your characters are utterly unkillable.

People are saying 'but XYZ is good for me', without realizing that what's good for you is also good for your opponent too. Every unfair advantage you think you may have by gaming the system, your characters are just as often on the receiving end of the said advantage. In fact, the higher your placement is, the more likely your characters will be on the receiving end of the said abuse in PvP.

In No Holds Barred I found out that I was defeating my opponents so quickly and I had stopped using spider man to heal to speed up my battles. I was able to go for at least 3 battles without even thinking of needing a heal. I benched spider man and put Hulk on the playing field.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

Phantron wrote:

pumkin wrote:

The opposing team almost never gets heals off anyway. It's very rare that OBW is alive long enough to collect 9 blues to cast Anti-Grav. And with Spidey, just match yellows so he can't heal. Admittedly, he's a bit tougher to block because your first priority is grabbing blues from him. But I'd say 1 out of 10 fights does the other team get off a heal.

So if it's just my team healing, usually so I can keep going without wasting health packs, what's the problem? That's definitely not the key factor in winning a match. And if it is for you, you need to reconsider some of your strategies. You will still get beaten by other teams with or without heals, simply because an attacking team has the advantage and rarely loses.

They seriously need to send videos of when your team is utterly abused by enemy healers and never got any heal off yourself. Maybe then people will realize that healing offers you no advantage whatsoever because at the level where you have Spiderman, you're also fighting opponents that have Spiderman too.

What's sad is people don't realize the stuff they complain about are all self inflicted. If they started adding IDDQD for godmode which prevents you from taking any damage for the rest of the fight, I think most people would think that'd be a great thing, without realizing that every opponent can do exactly the same thing back to them and you'd still be exactly back to where you started in PvP, and in PvE you'd just be looking at that guy who was playing 20 hours continously that you're never going to catch even though all your characters are utterly unkillable.

People are saying 'but XYZ is good for me', without realizing that what's good for you is also good for your opponent too. Every unfair advantage you think you may have by gaming the system, your characters are just as often on the receiving end of the said advantage. In fact, the higher your placement is, the more likely your characters will be on the receiving end of the said abuse in PvP.

In No Holds Barred I found out that I was defeating my opponents so quickly and I had stopped using spider man to heal to speed up my battles. I was able to go for at least 3 battles without even thinking of needing a heal. I benched spider man and put Hulk on the playing field.

In the NHB environment you usually aren't too worried about taking damage because shields are used so often and you'd obviously have plenty of time to heal up while you're shielded and looking for your next match. At any rate it's not an issue of being able to play with or without healing. It's that healing just needlessly adds extra games for you and all your opponent that ends up canceling each other out. It's pretty trivial to have a slow grind-it-out win with Spiderman so while you're delivering a slow win, so is any number of opponents doing the same back to you, and the result is people tend to end up running in circles, and that adds absolutely nothing to the game.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

In the NHB environment you usually aren't too worried about taking damage because shields are used so often and you'd obviously have plenty of time to heal up while you're shielded and looking for your next match. At any rate it's not an issue of being able to play with or without healing. It's that healing just needlessly adds extra games for you and all your opponent that ends up canceling each other out. It's pretty trivial to have a slow grind-it-out win with Spiderman so while you're delivering a slow win, so is any number of opponents doing the same back to you, and the result is people tend to end up running in circles, and that adds absolutely nothing to the game.

it was a wake up call to me. I don't have to use spider man. I realize I might be unique in this but I can put together maybe 5 fairly decent teams that are good for 3 battles each. If I tailor each encounter to play a team that my opponent would be weak to I could probably increase that quite a bit.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

Phantron wrote:

In the NHB environment you usually aren't too worried about taking damage because shields are used so often and you'd obviously have plenty of time to heal up while you're shielded and looking for your next match. At any rate it's not an issue of being able to play with or without healing. It's that healing just needlessly adds extra games for you and all your opponent that ends up canceling each other out. It's pretty trivial to have a slow grind-it-out win with Spiderman so while you're delivering a slow win, so is any number of opponents doing the same back to you, and the result is people tend to end up running in circles, and that adds absolutely nothing to the game.

it was a wake up call to me. I don't have to use spider man. I realize I might be unique in this but I can put together maybe 5 fairly decent teams that are good for 3 battles each. If I tailor each encounter to play a team that my opponent would be weak to I could probably increase that quite a bit.

Sure, but not everyone has the initiative or the roster depth to try that. It's not unlike how after the boost AP all were nerfed people finally realized that grinding the 230X3 until they're down to one point wasn't really giving them any advantage, because a stronger player still will grind it more than you. I guess technically it's not my concern to help others, and if people prefer to slowly grind out a victory with Spiderman while their team is also slowly being killed and make no progress for a few hours that's technically not my problem, but for the good of the game they should curb that. The recent changes in PvE clearly are trying to reduce the number of meaningless matches and it wouldn't hurt if the similarly meaningless matches are reduced in PvP as well. In Nefarious Foes, a tournament that features no healers, you can see that everyone clearly plays far fewer games (overall points are much lower), but that didn't mean it was suddenly easier to place well. It just means it took fewer games to settle on what your place ought to be because you didn't have the meaningless healer-dominated games. Argument like playing more gets you more iso 8 or higher points leads to progression rewards is meaningless because those are ultimately set by D3.

From my experience, you can easily play 2 hours continously by being reasonably careful with a decent roster, assuming you didn't have some totally unexpected wipeouts, with no healing whatsoever just on your 5 health packs, and I don't think the game should encourage let alone mandate longer continous sessions than that. When I had only 1* heroes and obviously no healers, sometimes you can even get a string of easy victories + distractions + real life obligations and you notice your health pack is starting to go up over time despite you trying to play as much as you can. And that should be how the game is played, not this use Spiderman to play for 5 hours continously and the only time you stop is because you're so tired that you used Berserker Rage and your opponent is Magneto classic with 5r and you forgot to stun him.

over_clocked

Ugh! I would still use Spider-Man and oBW even if they didn't have healing at all because they stun, protect, steal, delay countdown tiles, and what not. They are my 2 good options among, like, 5-6! I don't have a complete Thor (rebuilding, lacking green), a good cStorm (lacking green), my Ares is a laugh yet (lacking green altogether), my only usable 3 star when non-buffed is Spidey. You're basically saying I have no right to play, have no right to at least try to be competitive (I already know I have no chance at being competitive without a good Patch, Punisher, Ares, Thor, Hulk, Hood, Magneto, etc., thank you very much). And I can't afford to spend HP on shields because roster slots are still my priority #1. I would keep my Bullseyes and Juggernauts to diversify my pitiful roster, and since I have such troubles, many people are bound to have the same.
Necessity does dictate mine, our 'bad' choices. I don't care if the opponents can use the same good stuff that I have, I'm not gonna demand removing the good stuff from freaking everyone for THAT 'reasoning'. I used to think of shields as strictly P2W, but not anymore. I just can't use them myself yet, if other people benefit from them, fine. Just don't make others suffer for it.
The AI simply sucks and there is no true pvp in the game, how can my opponents' and my own choices be of any game-breaking value? We are in the same boat? Yes. We all know that, we all also benefit from that. You can take mStorm, a low level Spidey with level 3 stunlock/oBW and a buffed Daken to take out level 230 Dinos, Hulks, etc. without using boosts. IT'S NOT BECAUSE SPIDEY IS TOO GOOD (which he still is probably), IT'S BECAUSE THE AI JUST SUCKS. Improve AI's thinking one notch and all your 'problems' with healers become a moot point, because you will finally start getting trouble even when running your fav 'easy wins' Patch-Loki combo or smth.
It all boils down to using the 5-6 best characters atm anyway, because they don't completely suck in AI's hands.
Your highroller 'logic' just makes no sense for me as a common player. No one likes to grind, except grinders. The game rewards you for any type of behavior (grind; shield; play what you can when you can, enjoy what you get), so what's the problem? Anything in the game is right now, starting from the AI and ending with matchmaking, but player healing?