An Update On Token Exploits *Updated (12/15/15)

Bowgentle

Dauthi wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]
Demiurge are continually looking at ways to fix exploits and are actively investigating the best way to fix this particular exploit. It is an ongoing, challenging task. By its very nature (again, "online game") it's difficult to fix everything in an absolute manner. And we've always been able to catch and remove offenders. This continues - and will continue.

Think about it this way, instead of dedicating a team to fixing the problem over 2 years, they have a team for 2 years putting out band-aids (allegedly). Why should we believe this will be fixed now or especially any time soon?

It won't.
The very wording of this says so.

My guess is they looked at it, said "it'll take X people Y amount of time to fix this, and it may break Z other items" and the bean counters said "yeah no, just make sure the game keeps running and let this blow over".

If they had a fix ready they would have said "this will be fixed soon".
This is how you word it if you know it won't be fixed anytime soon.

The Bookman

Wow... I'm assuming that the devs don't set out on purpose to make themselves look like they are a bunch of money grabbing 'people' .. But with some badly chosen words that is exactly what they achieve time and again.

This is what normal people read from the posts

'you are supposed to lose '

' cheaters can get a second chance if they pay us ' and
' cheaters are welcome in mpq'

' integrity is allowing cheats in the game '

This is a problem for all of us who like playing the game and NOT just because a cheat may place above us, but because we invest our time and money in playing in an environment we can't trust.

Players/alliances who want to place top 50 have to play each event at least 3 times round and grind .... For me that means at least 4/5 hours per day just on pve... Per day! And then you tell me that means less to you than someone who cheats and pays more money than I do. To be clear here those are not the words the devs used but that is what I read from their posts... I read loud and clear that the money is the only thing they really care about.. Not genuine players.

INTEGRITY - Is doing the right thing even when no one is looking.

Right now we are all looking and waiting for the integrity to kick in.

Things to be done to regain trust and have normal people believe in the integrity the devs claim is theirs....

1. Cheaters are banned with accounts removed from game completely. Have an appeals process but once an account is confirmed as cheating then ban that player and remove the account completely.

2. Be absolutely clear that integrity means exactly that and that you take a pride in a clean, fair playing environment where there is a zero tolerance policy on cheating.

3. Make it clear in ToS that if someone is discovered exploiting the game, either in an existing known manner or in a new manner they will be banned, with a complete loss of all monies paid and items earned whether legitimately or not.

Until this happens you cannot claim to have any integrity at all.

evil panda

DuckyV wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]I'll see if I can provide harder numbers, but, (as already explained) the number of players who have exploited is VERY tiny compared to the huge MPQ playerbase. Rampant speculation in the forums isn't helping anyone.

If possible, could you provide numbers regarding the amount that were found to be active in t100 alliances? I'd be interested to know how that compares to the overall population as well.

These are the truly important numbers. Using the entire player base of (presumably) millions is not a relevant comparison because a ton of those will be inactive or casual, and likely not significantly impacting or displacing anyone here (or beating up on dedicated and/or paying customers). What's the proportion of cheaters amongst T100 alliances?

woopie

No one is going to be auditing your metrics so the numbers don't have to be perfect. All you have to say is 'as of Dec. 16th, we've rolled back x accounts. So far we have identified x accounts as having used the exploit'. Considering the roll backs are being done on a case by case basis, I don't see why that number is so hard to pin down.

You're fueling the rampant speculation by not providing any sort of numbers.

puppychow

woopie wrote:

No one is going to be auditing your metrics so the numbers don't have to be perfect. All you have to say is 'as of Dec. 16th, we've rolled back x accounts. So far we have identified x accounts as having used the exploit'. Considering the roll backs are being done on a case by case basis, I don't see why that number is so hard to pin down.

You're fueling the rampant speculation by not providing any sort of numbers.

Let me play the devil's advocate here. If D3 posts numbers in the way you suggest, WHAT GOOD WILL COME OF IT? Seriously. Let's say for example 100 accounts got rolled back. Forum posters will publicly doubt the number. If D3 posts 10,000 accounts, then you'll have people demanding compensation for losing out on placement/rewards due to cheaters taking up slots above them. Either way, D3 will lose by posting hard numbers, whatever that may be.

puppychow

DayvBang wrote:

Not speaking as a mod:

I think it's time for people to let this topic go. D3 has announced their plans to deal with this and their decision on requests for compensation. They've seen the requests to change their minds. This thread is just going in circles now. If you feel you can't play anymore, or can't pay anymore, you should follow through. If D3 sees a huge drop-off in play or income they may decide they handled this poorly, but I think it's just a blip on the radar. Payers gonna pay, players gonna play, only a few people who were already on the fence will really change their habits over this -- in my opinion.

I'm predicting a 25% to 50% drop in the playerbase next season. Will the publisher make any changes in human resources if that happens? Will Marvel rescind or decide NOT to renew the license to D3 due to the revenue drop?

Raffoon

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hi everyone,

<snip>

**Updated 12/15/15**

<snip>

The integrity of the game remains intact. We've tried to make this clear and will say it again in the hopes that the reality of the situation is known. Cheaters are not allowed to keep anything gained from exploiting or cheating. Their accounts are either removed from the game completely or rolled back to a point before cheating occurred - which includes removal of any items gained by exploiting/cheating.

I'm not someone who's about to quit, and I understand that measures are being taken to deal with the cheaters.

Don't say that the integrity of the game is intact, though. Even if the ill-gotten gains are removed from the cheaters, that does nothing about the fact that you've made the heart of your game revolve around competition. Even your "PVE" requires that you compete against others.

While this exploit has been occurring, the rest of us have had to try and compete with people that had a large number of 5*s on their roster from the exploit. Ever try shield hopping against a trio of level 390 characters with a 4* roster? Good luck with that.

So what about all of the rewards that honest players did not win because cheaters bumped them out of the rankings? Clearly the integrity of the game is not intact, so please do not say that it is.

JVReal

Lystrata wrote:

"David wrote:

Moore"]

Lystrata wrote:

As others have pointed out, this is a contradictory statement. Either cheaters are removed completely, or they're given a second chance.

You're using semantics to misrepresent. The above has already been explained twice. Insert an "or" if you like. The end result is the same. Exploited goods are removed.

No, I'm using logic to try and gain clarity out of a contradictory statement. Which, given the situation, is hardly an outrageous thing to do.

The end result is not remotely 'the same'. In the first instance, cheaters are gone. In the second, some of their ill-gotten gains are gone, but they remain. Those are two very distinct and different things, not merely a matter of 'semantics'.

But given the direction this is going, I'll simply agree to disagree on the matter.

You aren't using logic.
Do you code? Cheaters get booted (sandboxed). IF the cheater petitions for a review which are done on a case by case situation AND granted their ONE TIME chance... THEN they are rolled back and allowed to stay.
IF they cheat again, there is No more chances. Sandboxed for good.
I'm sick and tired of people's lack of simple reading comprehension and twisting of words and warped logic.
The horse is dead, stop beating it.

puppychow

Pylgrim wrote:

Nevertheless, the damage is done, sadly. If you have been paying attention to my posts for the past two years you've surely seen that I've never been one to ask for compensation about anything. However, I think if there was a time and a place for compensations, it is now. Don't see it as "rewarding honesty" which, I agree, is silly. Good, lawful behaviour is the lowest bar expected and deserves no further reward. Rather, see it as a PR a move to regain the trust and goodwill of your players, which it's at a critical low. See it as a true compensation to all the people who, unknowingly, received fewer or lesser rewards because cheaters took the top ones with their unfair advantage.

Maybe a holiday appreciation gift (token(s), iso, hp) would do a lot of good in smoothing over ruffled feathers.

woopie

puppychow wrote:

woopie wrote:

No one is going to be auditing your metrics so the numbers don't have to be perfect. All you have to say is 'as of Dec. 16th, we've rolled back x accounts. So far we have identified x accounts as having used the exploit'. Considering the roll backs are being done on a case by case basis, I don't see why that number is so hard to pin down.

You're fueling the rampant speculation by not providing any sort of numbers.

Let me play the devil's advocate here. If D3 posts numbers in the way you suggest, WHAT GOOD WILL COME OF IT? Seriously. Let's say for example 100 accounts got rolled back. Forum posters will publicly doubt the number. If D3 posts 10,000 accounts, then you'll have people demanding compensation for losing out on placement/rewards due to cheaters taking up slots above them. Either way, D3 will lose by posting hard numbers, whatever that may be.

People are already demanding compensation so that's not going to change. By providing the numbers, it kills the speculation which is what half of this thread is. Will some people doubt the number? Sure they will, but I'd bet that most of the reasonable posters on this board will accept it for what it is (and later demand compensation ).

Saying "Trust us, the number of cheaters is small" after losing the trust of the player base is probably the worst thing that they can do at this point.

Sm0keyJ0e

My original season score was 524, and it stayed that way for over a day. The last few hours before it disappeared, however, I was bumped to 467. I have never seen this happen before and when I clicked in to the rankings, it also said 467. I guess my questions are, did anyone else see this happen? And is it possible the bump up is due to the removal of accounts that have now been sandboxed? If that's the case then this is a scary percentage of people cheating.

Zen808

I think that the people predicting that this exploit irrevocably damages the integrity of the game are vastly over-estimating themselves. This is a casual mobile game, filled with casual mobile players. I'm sure that most casuals of any game will look at the scores at the top of the leaderboard and naturally assume that there took some cheating to get there. Add to that, the way the prize structure is made up, most people were never even in the running for a good prize anyway, cheaters or none. The net result: nobody cares (well, except for the 1%er's that make a living on this forum).

That said, I have little sympathy for the position of the makers of this game, both D3 and Demiurge. They're like the pitbull owner who starves his dog to make the dog more vicious, and then is all surprised when that dog turns around and mauls him.

Dayv

puppy chow wrote:

Maybe a holiday appreciation gift (token(s), iso, hp) would do a lot of good in smoothing over ruffled feathers.

Based on the holiday graphics (in the mobile version, apparently not in Steam), I suspect they may already have something planned.

puppychow wrote:

I'm predicting a 25% to 50% drop in the playerbase next season. Will the publisher make any changes in human resources if that happens? Will Marvel rescind or decide NOT to renew the license to D3 due to the revenue drop?

If it weren't for the fact that I doubt D3 would release the numbers, I'd happily take that bet.

Also, I still miss downvotes.

simonsez

DayvBang wrote:

If it weren't for the fact that I doubt D3 would release the numbers, I'd happily take that bet.

You've got a LINE room that monitors PvE bracket participation, so you'd be able track how many people are participating in each event. That'd be a good enough proxy for the size of the active player-base. You guys should definitely go ahead and make that bet. Loser has to post a video of himself walking the streets dressed as Moonstone?

Stax the Foyer

puppychow wrote:

woopie wrote:

No one is going to be auditing your metrics so the numbers don't have to be perfect. All you have to say is 'as of Dec. 16th, we've rolled back x accounts. So far we have identified x accounts as having used the exploit'. Considering the roll backs are being done on a case by case basis, I don't see why that number is so hard to pin down.

You're fueling the rampant speculation by not providing any sort of numbers.

Let me play the devil's advocate here. If D3 posts numbers in the way you suggest, WHAT GOOD WILL COME OF IT? Seriously. Let's say for example 100 accounts got rolled back. Forum posters will publicly doubt the number. If D3 posts 10,000 accounts, then you'll have people demanding compensation for losing out on placement/rewards due to cheaters taking up slots above them. Either way, D3 will lose by posting hard numbers, whatever that may be.

One of my major concerns was (mostly) allayed when David explained why the rollback period could extend back well beyond the period at which the exploiting started. My interpretation of their comments wasn't unreasonable, but it was wrong, because they had additional information that we didn't have. Once that information was provided, things made sense.

There's another disconnect with respect to the numbers. Describing things in relative terms means there's a disconnect between what we're saying, and what they're saying, because we don't know if we're describing things in the same way.

Giving some hard numbers on this at least gives context to their statements, so that we know we're discussing the same thing, even if there's still disagreement about the effect of those numbers. That's the good that will come of it.

They theoretically have the ability to lie, sure, and people might doubt it for that reason. But intentionally giving inaccurate information in this case would be a bad idea, for several reasons. If they give a number, I'll trust that number.

ViralCore

How long will it take D3 to take full action on all of the exploiters? If the number of cheater is as small as they say, it shouldn't take very long. The next season starts soon and I doubt anyone wants to be in an alliance with a known cheater.

Hendross

Is this where I grumble?

I'm trying, really trying to be angry, even as a paying, non-cheating, 2-year player I'm having a hard time getting worked up.

Let's remember cheaters are everywhere in life, MPQ is game, hopefully a small escape from what really matters.

<insert grumble grumble>

Nightglider1

simonsez wrote:

DayvBang wrote:

If it weren't for the fact that I doubt D3 would release the numbers, I'd happily take that bet.

Loser has to post a video of himself walking the streets dressed as Moonstone?

Some people might be willing to do that anyway.

JamieMadrox

ViralCore wrote:

How long will it take D3 to take full action on all of the exploiters? If the number of cheater is as small as they say, it shouldn't take very long. The next season starts soon and I doubt anyone wants to be in an alliance with a known cheater.

From what I understand they started on Friday and it's ongoing. They inferred that they already had a system in place to flag these cheaters, but manual review takes time I'm sure. Hopefully they can make it a more automated process going forward and cut down the time to box.

puppychow

Zen808 wrote:

I think that the people predicting that this exploit irrevocably damages the integrity of the game are vastly over-estimating themselves. This is a casual mobile game, filled with casual mobile players. I'm sure that most casuals of any game will look at the scores at the top of the leaderboard and naturally assume that there took some cheating to get there. Add to that, the way the prize structure is made up, most people were never even in the running for a good prize anyway, cheaters or none. The net result: nobody cares (well, except for the 1%er's that make a living on this forum).

First off, I highly doubt even 1% of the playerbase bother to register with these forums. That said, I think a lot of people simply can't help themselves in terms of using exploits and cheating. I was really surprised when, a few months back, there was an announcement in the pop ups for Pokemon Shuffle (another 3-match mobile game revolving around a popular brand/IP) that cheaters were getting booted. PS is as casual as can be, and even THEN people are cheating. LOL

I'm sympathetic to D3/Demiurge because the problem may lie w/ ios platform, and Apple could be pretty restrictive compared to Google or Steam. Again, if the fix was easy it would be done by now. The publisher is losing a ton of sales revenue due to the reroll exploit, and will probably lose a hefty portion of the playerbase as well. Ouch.