Why the 4* "Transition" is impossible

Malcrof

I did a quick keyword search.. and found threads from late 2014 about too many 3*s characters being released, and no-one will ever be able to finish covering 3*s etc, etc, etc.. ad naseum..

Now, many people are completely done with 3*s, and here we go with 4*s.

Just wait it out.. soon enough there will be plenty to go around..

When you first started playing, did you ever think you would finish your 3* transition? I didn't! Then it got easier.. and now i am done.

Then i started sweating the 4* transition.. guess what, now it is getting easier and easier the longer we go...


We need a subforum for "Lets complain about the same thing over and over and over" we can put it with the caltrops, ai cascade, pvp is unfair threads, and the like.

BlackSheep101

So you're saying complaining works? Got it, message received.

vudu3

I just want to say that I'm against pretty much every change outlined in the original topic. Part of this is because I already have ten or so 4* characters already complete and another half dozen almost complete. But mostly it's because 4* characters are still the end-game for most people; 5* characters are nice and all but aren't really a factor for 99% of the folks fielding a 3* or 4* roster. If 4* characters suddenly grow on trees then it's going to make my life more difficult because it will allow others to catch up to me. Selfish, I know. But after playing this game for the past 21 months don't I deserve an advantage over someone who started less than a year ago?

If 4* characters become easier to obtain then people will "beat" the game faster, see everything they want to see and move on to something else. This isn't healthy for the long-term prospects of MPQ.

However, what I do think they need to do is make it so it's easier to obtain newer 4* characters vs. older 4* characters. Many more people have X-Force cover maxed compared to those who have Iceman cover maxed. Yet we see both covers rewarded with the same frequency. For 3* covers the devs hand-pick the rewards so the newer characters are given out more frequently--I can think of three or four times that Squirrel Girl has been rewarded in the same amount of time that Punisher has been rewarded once. This is the way it should be! More people need SG covers than Punisher covers. Yet for 4* covers they continue to do the cover rotation described in the original post which leads to long stretches of time between the covers that most people need.

udonomefoo

My biggest mistake in the 366 days I've been playing this game was waiting until after failing in both ultron runs to leave the public alliance I had been in and use the recruitment thread to find a home that had people playing pve as hard as I was (shoutout to the love boat!). If I had gotten the strong headstart on HB that everyone else in the t100 alliances did, I'd have a fully covered HB right now and I'd be laughing at all the peons too.

Instead, I've got XFW and IW covered and everyone else has between 4-6 covers. My problem is that I'll probably cover them all at the same time. About a year or two from now. I don't want them all covered. Just let me focus on one good one.

DaveR4470

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

DaveR4470 wrote:

Serious point: I think a lot of the problems could be mitigated by making event tokens 20% 4*/80% 3*.

Serious counter, events are dominated by players that desperately need 2* covers.

Serious counter counter: and event rewards are dominated by "things that aren't event tokens". Most nodes in PvE have a standard token as one of the reward options. So in a typical event, you can earn (with some RNG luck) 10 standard tokens or so (which will return a 2* about 70% of the time, I think), PLUS the progression 2*s. And PvP rewards 2* covers directly as a reward for winning.

You'll pull, as a 1* or 2* player, maybe one or two event tokens from an event (PvP or PvE). Changing the reward outlay for an event token isn't going to have a significant impact on your cover generation period, let alone on your 2* cover generation. It would, however, fill in a currently missing reward tier for 3*-level players transitioning to 4*.

TxMoose

vudu3 wrote:

I just want to say that I'm against pretty much every change outlined in the original topic. Part of this is because I already have ten or so 4* characters already complete and another half dozen almost complete. But mostly it's because 4* characters are still the end-game for most people; 5* characters are nice and all but aren't really a factor for 99% of the folks fielding a 3* or 4* roster. If 4* characters suddenly grow on trees then it's going to make my life more difficult because it will allow others to catch up to me. Selfish, I know. But after playing this game for the past 21 months don't I deserve an advantage over someone who started less than a year ago?

If 4* characters become easier to obtain then people will "beat" the game faster, see everything they want to see and move on to something else. This isn't healthy for the long-term prospects of MPQ.

However, what I do think they need to do is make it so it's easier to obtain newer 4* characters vs. older 4* characters. Many more people have X-Force cover maxed compared to those who have Iceman cover maxed. Yet we see both covers rewarded with the same frequency. For 3* covers the devs hand-pick the rewards so the newer characters are given out more frequently--I can think of three or four times that Squirrel Girl has been rewarded in the same amount of time that Punisher has been rewarded once. This is the way it should be! More people need SG covers than Punisher covers. Yet for 4* covers they continue to do the cover rotation described in the original post which leads to long stretches of time between the covers that most people need.

vudu - that kinda sounds like you want older 4* characters vaulted or restricted from tokens, and as a newer player, that would completely suck. I remember panther all too well. newer players need the older characters just as much as the newer ones, even if 4thor and xforce are mid-tier after the nerfs. it would be nice to have different levels of event to choose to play and then the frequency could be managed through those rewards like you mention with SQ/pun. tokens have to be a smattering of all to me. maybe selfishly, but I also like rotating all of them through 1K rewards. I need most all 4* abilities in the game (think I have 4 abilities max covered so far), so that benefits me. I can see from your point of view where that would hamper your game experience, but I think we all want what would benefit ourselves the most.

XandorXerxes

Malcrof wrote:

I did a quick keyword search.. and found threads from late 2014 about too many 3*s characters being released, and no-one will ever be able to finish covering 3*s etc, etc, etc.. ad naseum..

Now, many people are completely done with 3*s, and here we go with 4*s.

Just wait it out.. soon enough there will be plenty to go around..

When you first started playing, did you ever think you would finish your 3* transition? I didn't! Then it got easier.. and now i am done.

Then i started sweating the 4* transition.. guess what, now it is getting easier and easier the longer we go...

We need a subforum for "Lets complain about the same thing over and over and over" we can put it with the caltrops, ai cascade, pvp is unfair threads, and the like.

We could also use a rule about not posting useless messages - SnowcaTT posted a large number of comments with some math behind them to show why the current system is silly, and this post (being fair: and many before it) offers a "eh, it'll get fixed eventually stop whining" response.

Why is it acceptable to only cover a 4* character after 2 years of optimal play?

The transition isn't getting easier unless you already have a completed 4*. More people are buying their way into 4* land, which necessarily makes it harder on the f2p players - especially casuals. More 4*s are coming out, and coming rapidly - which necessarily slows down the transition and makes it harder to transition (token luck matters a lot more). The new tier has arrived, and caters exclusively to the players who are already making life difficult for the transitioners. As someone in the late 3* / early 4* phase, all I see are the goal posts being constantly moved farther and farther back. I feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football - doesn't matter how hard I try or how well I can kick if the football is always yanked out from under me before I can kick it.

If I want to move forward in the game I have to play to everyone else. I have to join popular slices and watch for top people when they play. I have to hope I can see or retal against people who will be high earners. I have to hope that I don't get hit in the brief moment I'm vulnerable and hopping, even though it's expected of me not to hit people who are hopping. Even if all of those come together and I can hit 1K every time, it will still take me years to get anywhere in this silly transition. I could open my stockpile of legendary tokens, but I risk totally hosing myself. Everything about the "transition" is silly, and if it's designed to make me ask myself why I still login and play every day it's working.

TxMoose

udonomefoo wrote:

My biggest mistake in the 366 days I've been playing this game was waiting until after failing in both ultron runs to leave the public alliance I had been in and use the recruitment thread to find a home that had people playing pve as hard as I was (shoutout to the love boat!). If I had gotten the strong headstart on HB that everyone else in the t100 alliances did, I'd have a fully covered HB right now and I'd be laughing at all the peons too.

Instead, I've got XFW and IW covered and everyone else has between 4-6 covers. My problem is that I'll probably cover them all at the same time. About a year or two from now. I don't want them all covered. Just let me focus on one good one.

totally agree here - my biggest mistake was not finding a t100 pve alliance after I fully entered 2* and started playing regularly. mid 3* transition I found a t100 pvp alliance and that was the best thing that happened to my 3* roster but that wasn't until after ultron2, where me and 1 other played tug boats for the rest of the bunch. I stuck with my starter alliance way too long. I now have 13 covers on hb (I bought one of them), but would have been waaay ahead if I would have spent the months I was a t50/100 pve player in a pve alliance. then I would have had a much stronger ultron run and generally ahead of where I am.

lesson: as soon as you can place t50 at will in pve, get into a pve alliance that will get you extra covers and hp there. then, as soon as you can hang with a t100 pvp group, get there. wish I had extra time to restart the game on a second acct. to see how fast I could progress - it'd be waaaay faster than my first go, which started off pretty casual.

Malcrof

XandorXerxes wrote:

Why is it acceptable to only cover a 4* character after 2 years of optimal play?

The transition isn't getting easier unless you already have a completed 4*. .

Wrong and Wrong.. first off.. most 4*s haven't been out 2 years.. and i have some completed that haven't been out 6 months.. and i have purchased a grand total.. wait for it.... of 1 cover, using HP (couldn't wait for that 5th red IMHB). Even the newest, Red Hulk, i am up to 5 covers already...

I started hitting 1k in PVP regularly, and then , when legendary tokens were introduced, started getting those every single PVE, with about 10 max 3*s. This is the first season i am rockin a 4* team in PVP, now to get the iso to level them up.. that is the next hurdle..

The simplest thing is this.. pick your battles.. if you see a cover at 1k in PVP that you absolutely must have.. then go get it.. done.. Once you get one completed, or close.. you will find things start to just roll along. By the end of this season, i fully expect to be getting my first 1300's in PVP , and even more roll in. 4* DDQ, i haven't been able to do them all, but the ones i can, i do.. It is odd to be at the point where i do seem to be selling quite a few 4* covers.. but you know what, i had that same moment with 3*s, and some day, i hope to have it with 5*s.

Just let the game evolve.. it has no choice, the devs know it, the players who have been playing forever know it does, and will..

Ok, i am done ranting.. enjoy the thread.. see you in the "5* transition is impossible" thread next year.

babinro

Malcrof wrote:

I did a quick keyword search.. and found threads from late 2014 about too many 3*s characters being released, and no-one will ever be able to finish covering 3*s etc, etc, etc.. ad naseum..

Now, many people are completely done with 3*s, and here we go with 4*s.

Just wait it out.. soon enough there will be plenty to go around..

When you first started playing, did you ever think you would finish your 3* transition? I didn't! Then it got easier.. and now i am done.

Then i started sweating the 4* transition.. guess what, now it is getting easier and easier the longer we go...

First off, excellent post Snowcatt!
I certainly feel like progression has slowed to a crawl since becoming a 4* established player.

Malcrof brings up a very reasonable point as well. We've all gone through this before.
- It's impossible to keep up!
- I can't find covers!
- Thanks for the buff D3 but now there's no carrot to chase!
- Give me something to do or I'll quit!

This isn't an easy problem to balance and honestly I don't know which is better for the community as a whole. I'm leaning towards things being 'okay' as is but only barely. As we add more 4*'s we could really use some buffs.

Something as simple as making legendary tokens colourless would be amazing. Less reliance on randomness.

SnowcaTT

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Serious counter, events are dominated by players that desperately need 2* covers.

Those are really easy to get by anyone - play the seed teams (only) in LR's and you'll have about half the 2* covers you need.

Malcrof wrote:

When you first started playing, did you ever think you would finish your 3* transition? I didn't! Then it got easier.. and now i am done.

Then i started sweating the 4* transition.. guess what, now it is getting easier and easier the longer we go...

This is absolutely true - when I started playing I figured I would never be fully 3* covered. However, the 4* just seems to be another step more difficult to get/cover - in part because they keep adding them, and 3* has apparently been "done" for some time.

Wouldn't it be nice if instead of 4* after 4* a few 3*'s were thrown in there? It would still be to many characters to fast, but at least everyone could look forward to a chance of needing a cover in a heroic token or some of the 3*'s in progression trees.

vudu3 wrote:

If 4* characters become easier to obtain then people will "beat" the game faster, see everything they want to see and move on to something else. This isn't healthy for the long-term prospects of MPQ.

However, what I do think they need to do is make it so it's easier to obtain newer 4* characters vs. older 4* characters.

I always wonder if the game plan is for folks to transition easier. Theoretically you should always be adding new players and losing older ones - don't you have to pander to the newer players more than the old?

I do agree that it's harder to get the newer characters, and I hope that "something" is being done to fix that problem soon. Pulling yet another IW/XF/GT/Fury cover gets frustrating when you only have two FalCap covers, for example. To TXMoose's comment on this - that "something" could be a way that doesn't -prevent- you from pulling IW/XF/GT/Fury, but rather turns those extra pulls into something more worthwhile to those that already have them....

Katai

I don't understand why the DDQ 4* isn't actually daily. Even if you manage to get a token every day, it would still take MONTHS to fully cover a single character.

CyberVenom2001

As a player who's been in the game for over 710 days now, who plays heavily, and daily, I don't really care for the 4* transition. I only have XForce Wolvie and Fury nearly maxed and maybe two or three other 4* with any kind of playability (excluding Devil Dino).

But I'm not here about that. One thing I can say is that I am the top person in my Alliance. They do what they can, but they don't have the same roster I do. But they bust their humps to try to get us as high as we can. A lot of players on here and other parts of the forum say "find a better alliance."

One problem with that in my book: loyalty. I don't personally know my alliance mates. But they allowed me in when alliances started and no one included me on. They allowed me on the bandwagon and I've worked my way to be the driver. I won't leave them. Yet, this transition in some sort, feels almost like a punishment for have a pretty good roster and loyalty.

Not that I'll stop playing over it. I highly enjoy the game, even with it faults. I just wish there was a hair easier way to get there.

(PS: Day 730 gets me a Surfer. I'm almost dreading where that's going to bump me in difficulty.)

XandorXerxes

Malcrof wrote:

XandorXerxes wrote:

Why is it acceptable to only cover a 4* character after 2 years of optimal play?

The transition isn't getting easier unless you already have a completed 4*. .

Wrong and Wrong.. first off.. most 4*s haven't been out 2 years.. and i have some completed that haven't been out 6 months.. and i have purchased a grand total.. wait for it.... of 1 cover, using HP (couldn't wait for that 5th red IMHB). Even the newest, Red Hulk, i am up to 5 covers already...

Sure, and how many of those came from your alliance? 4? How many came from guaranteed PvP rewards?

Read what we're actually writing instead of just writing us off. It will take 2 years for a player to get the covers he needs at this point in time for a 4* character. It doesn't take 2 years starting 2 years ago. If you started 2 years ago, you have an innate advantage over everyone else because there were far fewer characters you could pull covers from. Even those 6 months (which is still a *really* long time in game terms) ago it was significantly easier to get the covers you needed, because you had about 10 fewer 4*s.

Unknown

It’s actually true that we’ve been down this road before. The competitive tier of characters (3* then and 4* now) have always been difficult for majority of the populace to obtain. However, the current version of the road is harsher as SnowcaTT has explained. It feels like blocking off the “end-game” content to the majority of the player-base. So shall we keep going in circles and chase after that dangling carrot in our faces?


I’m probably being very pessimistic but I want things to get much worse to the point where we get 4* releases weekly and 5* releases fortnightly. Maybe then they will realise how badly every system in the game is stacked against the majority of the player-base. In the meantime, I’ll hold on to the tacos and tokens that I’ve accumulated and be very very casual in the game.

dudethtsawesome

It would be nice to be able to trade between alliance members. Our core alliance members have been together for a while now and we are constantly having to sell 3* or better covers because we are either maxed out or no slot readily available.

Wolarsen

aesthetocyst wrote:

But even that's kinda silly. This is a freemium game. You aren't supposed to catch up. New toys are kept at a premium to drive sales. Once they're no longer hot, and the portion of the customer base that is willing to pay full price have been exhausted, the acquisition costs will be slashed.

I find difficult to clasify games that have real money purchasing options (maybe because english is not my mother lenguaje), but I consider them freemium/"free to play" if you are able to catch up without spending cash, even if for that you need to do HEAVY farming/grinding, and paying just speeds up. If you can't catch up, then it is "pay to win". With this classification, I can't honestly decide if MPQ is F2P or P2W

Or maybe F2P is just a game with aesthetic/vanity purchasing, with no effect at all on gameplay?

simonsez

Wolarsen wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

But even that's kinda silly. This is a freemium game. You aren't supposed to catch up. New toys are kept at a premium to drive sales. Once they're no longer hot, and the portion of the customer base that is willing to pay full price have been exhausted, the acquisition costs will be slashed.

I find difficult to clasify games that have real money purchasing options (maybe because english is not my mother lenguaje), but I consider them freemium/"free to play" if you are able to catch up without spending cash, even if for that you need to do HEAVY farming/grinding, and paying just speeds up. If you can't catch up, then it is "pay to win". With this classification, I can't honestly decide if MPQ is F2P or P2W

It's both; it's just not F2W. If it were, demiurge would be out of business.

rawfsu

The inherent problem is Demiurge has to make money. Unlike game consoles, I imagine MPQ costs money to maintain on a regular basis. New graphics, updated content, new characters, new content, and everything else translates into more costs that demands we spend money. We see a finite amount of this when we buy games at home, but eventually, it comes to an end. I'm going to age myself, but look at games such as Marvel Ultimate Alliance, MUA 2, Marvel vs. Capcom 3, etc.. Developers sell the game for $60, plug in some extra stuff for X amount of money, then that's that. This is why I believe the home console venture may not be a success, but that's a different conversation. D3 has to add things to MPQ continually in order for it to stay relevant. I'm as frustrated as the majority of the player base as well, excluding the whales of course, but it is what it is. I'm just glad I can still play, and I must find satisfaction in that. I don't even know that if MPQ DID charge for the download, if they could change things then either. We must be constantly enticed to buy, buy, buy, and this is the pattern they've found works. IT SUCKS, but then again, so would being out of business!

XandorXerxes

rawfsu wrote:

The inherent problem is Demiurge has to make money. Unlike game consoles, I imagine MPQ costs money to maintain on a regular basis. New graphics, updated content, new characters, new content, and everything else translates into more costs that demands we spend money. We see a finite amount of this when we buy games at home, but eventually, it comes to an end. I'm going to age myself, but look at games such as Marvel Ultimate Alliance, MUA 2, Marvel vs. Capcom 3, etc.. Developers sell the game for $60, plug in some extra stuff for X amount of money, then that's that. This is why I believe the home console venture may not be a success, but that's a different conversation. D3 has to add things to MPQ continually in order for it to stay relevant. I'm as frustrated as the majority of the player base as well, excluding the whales of course, but it is what it is. I'm just glad I can still play, and I must find satisfaction in that. I don't even know that if MPQ DID charge for the download, if they could change things then either. We must be constantly enticed to buy, buy, buy, and this is the pattern they've found works. IT SUCKS, but then again, so would being out of business!

I am entirely, 100% against locking game content behind a pay wall. DotA, for example, has found a myriad of ways to generate massive revenue while still allowing a free player access to everything dealing with gameplay.