** Moonstone (Dark Avengers) **

Buret0

Thugpatrol wrote:

That's the list. Six characters out of 70, two of which aren't even remotely relevant and one, a 4*, who has to take major hits to other powers to gain the capacity. You can pad the list a little more if you add people like IW, who can lock down anything temporarily, and targeted board destruction powers like Hood or GSBW. You can even throw in random tile destruction if you're desperate, or CMags' yellow, which maybe could take out a countdown if one of the randomly placed protection tiles landed directly on it, but you're probably better off just buying a lottery ticket at that point if that's the kind of luck you're going to have. Taking away two powers that affect enemy countdown tiles may not seem like a lot, but it's an exclusive group that just got even smaller.

Part of it is that CD tiles aren't all made the same.

Hood's Intimidation is great if you are trying to get a CD timer to 0. Hood's Intimidation is not as good when you are talking about reducing your own Density tile, Jab tile, or Colossus tank tile.

By contrast, Bagman and OBW can actually help the other team by keeping those tiles active longer.

So there are really three kinds of CD timers:
1) CD timers that launch an ability at 0;
2) CD timers that give you an ability until 0;
3) CD timers that do both (example below).

For instance... I had either an OBW or a Bagman increase the CD tiles on my Furry Friend's tiles. Yes, it was harder to protect them and keep them alive for them to launch their huge assault... however, they also went around gathering a bunch more AP for me before they launched.

Do you use Intimidation on Furry Friends to get to the damage faster or do you want them out there longer?

The problem is, all CD tile manipulation is created with the intent that your CD tiles moving to 0 is good, your enemy's CD tiles moving to 0 is bad.

As I've demonstrated above, this is quite obviously not true in all cases. Part of the issue is that the developers chose to use CD tiles to do all of these things instead of creating a new permanent special tile. Invisibility could have been a CD tile, instead the developers chose to create a permanent. I'm wondering if Colossus, Luke Cage, and Vision's tiles should be "Countdown tiles" in the classic sense, considering the CD abilities are all currently focused on "your CD tiles moving to 0 is good".

Edit:

And how this applies to Moonstone, is that Moonstone 'should' be trying to steal CD timers that reach 0 and then launch an attack or do something else.

The problems likely arose when Moonstone was being asked to steal Jab tiles, Density tiles, Shapeshift tiles, etc.

Essentially, the problem was these "second category" CD tiles. The ones that were abilities or boosts in and of themselves.

Like, if you steal a Jab tile, that's pretty useless unless you have Luke Cage in your party to finish the combo. Then the question is, does that become Moonstone's Jab tile or can Luke Cage use it if he's on your team?

If you steal a density tile, does that mean that your Vision can launch his modified red attack?

If you steal a colossus tile, does that mean that Moonstone should move to the front to tank? What if you already have a colossus in your party... should he move to the front if you steal it? What if you already have a colossus tile in play?

And therein lies the problem. It isn't that Moonstone shouldn't be stealing CD tiles that Countdown to the trigger of an ability, it is that Moonstone shouldn't be using Control Shift to steal these category two "ability until 0" tiles.

That's the underlying issue and what probably costs the developers most of the testing time.

Unknown

DuckyV wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

Do you know how many characters there are that still directly affect enemy countdown tiles? It's a really short list. OBW and your boy Bagman can increase the timers. Cap can overwrite them and so can Falcon, though his power targets randomly. 4* Thor can, if you put 5 covers into yellow, and if you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel you can throw in Yelena's Payback Mission, but that's it.

Except that is not it. QS can move tiles to match away CD tiles. IW can lock them so they aren't effective anymore. GSBW can get rid of them by blowing them up with Pistol. Starlord can overwrite a CD with his purple CD. Any type of board shake or board manipulation move can handle CDs. Heck, even Classic Hawkeye can get rid of them with his red ability.

Most of this I mentioned directly below the the quote you chose to pull. I mentioned IW and GSBW specifically, and targeted demolition in general which covers 1* Hawkeye. Admittedly I missed Starlord, because in all honesty I didn't know his purple could overwrite and if you want to throw Idle Hands into the conversation, okay, that's one more. It's still a short list, with a good number of characters that aren't relevant to most people's situations, and it's short enough that losing three from it is significant.

Once your start getting into random board destruction and the like you're really stretching what we're talking about. Yes, they could take out enemy countdowns. Or friendly countdowns. Or other friendly special tiles. Or bury enemy tiles into corners you'll never get them out of. It's not really the same thing.

GothicKratos

I think you're looking way too far into this ThugPatrol. Yeah, it's somewhat suspect, given the anecdotal evidence you've stated a few times now, but given that they flat out said they changes Moonstone for the reason you're trying to imply they made those other changes, I don't see why they'd sidestep it on those specific characters.

He's literally said the the changes on those other characters had nothing to do with design philosophy (and realistically, neither was this one - this was a 'Quality of Life' adjustment for their programmers), and he even talked about why the changes ended up how they did.

Emphasis mine;

"Sometimes the best design meant that they got better at some things and worse at other things."

Yes, they could have left the CD Tile manipulation in the abilities, but hey, they could have completely reworked them too, or added sprinklers to their comic art!

Unknown

GothicKratos wrote:

I think you're looking way too far into this ThugPatrol. Yeah, it's somewhat suspect, given the anecdotal evidence you've stated a few times now, but given that they flat out said they changes Moonstone for the reason you're trying to imply they made those other changes, I don't see why they'd sidestep it on those specific characters.

I'm not sure what you think I'm trying to imply. I asked if countdown interaction was removed from Settlement and A&D for technical reasons, as it was for Control Shift, and he said no. I'm taking him at his word on that.

GothicKratos wrote:

He's literally said the the changes on those other characters had nothing to do with design philosophy (and realistically, neither was this one - this was a 'Quality of Life' adjustment for their programmers), and he even talked about why the changes ended up how they did.

Emphasis mine;

"Sometimes the best design meant that they got better at some things and worse at other things."

Yes, they could have left the CD Tile manipulation in the abilities, but hey, they could have completely reworked them too, or added sprinklers to their comic art!

The difference here is that you are satisfied by his answer, what there was of it, and I am not. Yes, removing the direct stealing of countdown tiles by Control Shift was done for technical reasons. I accept this and take no issue with it. I was concerned there might be more to the technical problem, and that it might have a spillover effect onto other powers, but he said this was not the case. I accept this and I am relieved to hear such. I followed up by asking if the removal of countdown interaction from these powers was part of a change in design philosophy, and he said no, it was just a coincidence. This is the part I don't accept, and have pressed to have answered in greater detail.

I fully understand and appreciate the significance of the quote you borrowed from Will. In fact, I agree. That is a reasonable thing to say as part of a normal balancing process. Some things work, some things don't. Some values need to go up, some down, some things added, some things removed. All of this makes sense. But when the same thing is removed at every opportunity and never added amidst a large number of opportunities, "several dozen powers that were changed recently" by Will's own words, that isn't a coincidence. It need not be a formerly discussed and decided upon design philosophy either, but it is a trend based on a series of decisions, and that's what I'm trying to get at. Why when every power went through this latest design pass, where things were being reviewed and reworked, was the decision made every time to move it on down the line without the inclusion of any kind of enemy countdown affecting ability?

That's all. Not that complicated. I'm not implying anything or accusing anyone of anything. Just trying to get to the root of something that I find curious.

GothicKratos

My point still being, if they're able to say 'you know what this was too much of a pain to code around',, they could probably be like 'yeah we feel like cs manipulation was under costed and/or too OP, so yeah', which they have also said in the past.

That's why I feel like you're maybe a little bit deeper than necessary.

Is it really strike you so odd that they changed some abilities and a particular mechanic didn't make it into those changes?

And I'm not trying to tell you not to press the issue, but like I feel like Will really doesn't have anything else to say about it lol and maybe that's because there isn't anything else to say or maybe you struck a nerve.

Suppose we'll find out if he replies.

sinnerjfl

At this point, it would be really surprising if they're not removing CD tile interactions on purpose. If it's just a coincidence then fine, but when they're designing their next characters, give some of them an ability that deals with CD tiles. There are too few characters that can deal with them directly (as listed previously) and those CD tiles can be very nasty (pyros, snipers, maggias, ninjas).

Pwuz_

sinnerjfl wrote:

At this point, it would be really surprising if they're not removing CD tile interactions on purpose. If it's just a coincidence then fine, but when they're designing their next characters, give some of them an ability that deals with CD tiles. There are too few characters that can deal with them directly (as listed previously) and those CD tiles can be very nasty (pyros, snipers, maggias, ninjas).

I could be reading more into this than is the case, but I think the problem with the Old Control Shift was how buggy it was with being used on new Countdown tile abilities. It was never because it deals with countdown tiles.

I have the feeling we will see another fun new use of Countdown tiles coming along with or right after this change goes into effect. I bet there is some new character with a countdown tile ability that was being extra buggy when stolen by Control Shift and the developers finally threw their hands up and said, "What if we just got rid of Control Shift!"

Arimis_Thorn

I mean, free ISO is free ISO

Lee T

Moonstone has to be updated first, with all the conundrum around R76 I guess it's been postponed a bit (it was supposed to hit this week).

stochasticism

Lee T wrote:

Moonstone has to be updated first, with all the conundrum around R76 I guess it's been postponed a bit (it was supposed to hit this week).

They said the middle of the week which, giving them the benefit of the doubt, could be until tomorrow.

Arimis_Thorn

Lee T wrote:

Moonstone has to be updated first, with all the conundrum around R76 I guess it's been postponed a bit (it was supposed to hit this week).

Look like the update to her has been pushed live already. Just not sure about the buyback price.

I currently have a Moonstone with 2 that cost a little over 1100 ISO to level to 22. The buyback is showing at 1250. Definitely higher than what was put into her, but not the ~50% higher that the post mentioned.

Just curious. I don't think this will be a huge ISO boon, but it would be nice given the stream of covers I seem to pull for her.

stochasticism

This is live now.

Lee T

Yep, it's now live (it probably went live when the simulator PVE went online).

My moonstone is showing the new power and her buyback is 34765 ISO.

Buret0

Yup. And looks like 3* Bullseye is the new cover for the event.

= Lethal Improvisation 7 AP

Bullseye grabs anything at hand and hurls it with deadly accuracy. Turns 2 selected Attack, Protect, or Strike tiles to basic tiles and deals 246 damage. (Level 2, deals 327 damage)

= Contract Killer (Passive)

Passive. Bullseye mixes business with pleasure, getting paid for every target he hits. If Bullseye downs an opponent, he cashes in and creates 5 strike tiles of strength 20. (level 2, creates 6 strike tiles)

= Deadly Precision 11 AP

Bullseye lets loose a torrent of projectiles, weakening his opponent for the final blow. Destroys 3 chosen basic tiles and deals 77 damage. Destroyed tiles don't deal damage or generate AP. (level 2, destroy 4 chosen tiles and deal 116 damage)

Unknown

Just got hit by the new Moonstone. Do not use BP's Battleplan against her when she has 9 black. Didn't realize the changes were live.

Unknown

I just went into the Jugg, Moonstone, Daken node with 2* Wolvie, Colossus and Falcon and got robbed!

fmftint

Well that didn't take long, Moonstone is 2* placement reward (151-400) for Simulator, meaning she well be the 2* essential for whatever comes next.

And of course the devs STILL haven't even acknowledged the 2/3/4 essential change

CaptainFreaky

fmftint wrote:

Well that didn't take long, Moonstone is 2* placement reward (151-400) for Simulator, meaning she well be the 2* essential for whatever comes next.

And of course the devs STILL haven't even acknowledged the 2/3/4 essential change

But I thought Dark Avengers were never essentials? Is this a change too? I pretty much dumped all my 2* villains a while ago because they were never essential.
Granted, I crack open like 5 Moonstone covers a day (wouldn't be ironic/fishy if this changed now....) so I can always get her if needed, but still. I go back to question #1 on the Q&A list...roster slots.

Legasher

daibar wrote:

Just got hit by the new Moonstone. Do not use BP's Battleplan against her when she has 9 black. Didn't realize the changes were live.

Yeah, they did due diligence to say the change was coming, but they could have done a much better job of announcing the change going live. As in... announcing it at all. I used her power the old way this morning for most of the general DDQ, then almost got whupped by Gorgon on the third node of the general path just now when I went to use her power to steal his stun tile and it said there were no targets.

d0nk3y

stochasticism wrote:

This is live now.

And holy cow, does this power stink to be on the wrong side of. Two buffed Battleplan strike tiles and a buffed Exquisite Technique attack tile suddenly changing sides means I'm eating an extra 1100 points of damage every turn.