** Moonstone (Dark Avengers) **

Punisher5784

Hi Demiurge_Will,

Thank you for this change, this makes Moonstone more usable overall.

Could you please consider tweaking her Pink as well? I suggested making her Pink similar to QS's black but I thought of another idea:

Since her black CD ability is changing, maybe you can change her Pink to only affect CD tiles. There is no need to be able to randomly move around special tiles if we can simply steal them. I would rather steal those special tiles than accidently match them due to the randomness of her pink. This would make her Pink more usable, so I can "hopefully" match the CD's or do damage if there are no CD's (or the specific color CD).

Unknown

I sold her a few months ago and I won't spend ISO on a 2* in the future, so I don't care about adding her to my roster. What I really care about is how annoying she will be as a 200-300lv enemy in pve. PVE is barely playable as it is and this change is another kick between the legs from the devs. Better increase the number of health packs to 10 while there are still players playing. it is disappointing though that they are focusing on 2*s when there are so many 3*s that require their attention. Unless they seriously think the recent health buff to almost everyone was the solution to team variety. If they think that, then, well, it's even more sad.

CrookedKnight

So I guess now the counter to Moonstone's purple is now not just tile generators but weak tile generators. BP/IF/Sentry no, 2* Daken/Elektra/Falcon/Storm yes.

Unknown

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

Were the changes to these powers that removed their ability to effect countdown tiles done for the same reason as the change to Control Shift, i.e. that it caused too much development trouble?

No.

Okay. Good. Now we're getting somewhere. But that still makes three separate powers, all changed recently, that formerly affected countdown tiles and now do not. Why? Does this represent a change in design philosophy regarding countdown tiles and how we are meant to deal with them? Will we be getting any powers moving forward that interact directly with countdown tiles, or is that no longer something that you plan to implement in the future?

Demiurge_Will

Thugpatrol wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

Were the changes to these powers that removed their ability to effect countdown tiles done for the same reason as the change to Control Shift, i.e. that it caused too much development trouble?

No.

Okay. Good. Now we're getting somewhere. But that still makes three separate powers, all changed recently, that formerly affected countdown tiles and now do not. Why? Does this represent a change in design philosophy regarding countdown tiles and how we are meant to deal with them? Will we be getting any powers moving forward that interact directly with countdown tiles, or is that no longer something that you plan to implement in the future?

No change in design philosophy - this is coincidental (there are a lot of powers that have changed recently!).

Punisher5784

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

Were the changes to these powers that removed their ability to effect countdown tiles done for the same reason as the change to Control Shift, i.e. that it caused too much development trouble?

No.

Okay. Good. Now we're getting somewhere. But that still makes three separate powers, all changed recently, that formerly affected countdown tiles and now do not. Why? Does this represent a change in design philosophy regarding countdown tiles and how we are meant to deal with them? Will we be getting any powers moving forward that interact directly with countdown tiles, or is that no longer something that you plan to implement in the future?

No change in design philosophy - this is coincidental (there are a lot of powers that have changed recently!).

Let's face it, no one was using She Hulk or Doc Oct for CD removal (or at all)! Does it suck that they no longer have that ability? Sure, but they are much better now (She Hulk moreso than Doc Ock). However, I do agree that we do need more characters that have CD removing/altering abilities. OBW can only do so much at level 94.

Nonce Equitaur 2

Demiurge_Will wrote:

No change in design philosophy - this is coincidental (there are a lot of powers that have changed recently!).

Out of curiousity, which powers remain that ...

1. Complicate the testing process a lot.
2. Don't get used very much.

My guess is that Fastball Special would be the #1 item here. But it's also a rather iconic power.

Unknown

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

Were the changes to these powers that removed their ability to effect countdown tiles done for the same reason as the change to Control Shift, i.e. that it caused too much development trouble?

No.

Okay. Good. Now we're getting somewhere. But that still makes three separate powers, all changed recently, that formerly affected countdown tiles and now do not. Why? Does this represent a change in design philosophy regarding countdown tiles and how we are meant to deal with them? Will we be getting any powers moving forward that interact directly with countdown tiles, or is that no longer something that you plan to implement in the future?

No change in design philosophy - this is coincidental (there are a lot of powers that have changed recently!).

Interesting, but I don't think your definition of "coincidental" is the same as mine. We've established that the countdown affecting aspect of these powers, other than Control Shift, wasn't removed for technical reasons, and now you say there hasn't been any change in design philosophy. But these were still decisions that were made to remove the ability to affect countdown tiles when many other potential solutions existed.

Settlement could simply have been targeted away from friendly tiles, problem solved. Armed and Dangerous could simply have had its damage increased. In both cases special tile buffing was substituted for countdown tile interaction, along with other more complicated alterations. Control Shift could have kept its countdown tile affecting roots, perhaps changing an enemy countdown into a friendly one that just did damage rather than the direct stealing of functionality which was causing too many problems. But that's not what you chose to do. Instead you made three separate choices for three separate powers to remove the ability to affect countdown tiles. That isn't a coincidence. That's a trend.

So, forgive me for being in danger of going around in circles here but I'm still looking for a straight answer. Three powers, all with their ability to affect countdown tiles removed. Why? Your previous answer regarding Settlement explained why countdown interaction didn't make sense with the current version of the power, but not why the change was made to that version over a simpler solution that kept its previous functionality intact. Ditto that for A&D and Control Shift. You deny any change in design philosophy, but surely there's some rational behind these changes. I'd be interested to hear what it is, and I'm probably not the only one.

Demiurge_Will

Thugpatrol wrote:

So, forgive me for being in danger of going around in circles here but I'm still looking for a straight answer. Three powers, all with their ability to affect countdown tiles removed. Why? Your previous answer regarding Settlement explained why countdown interaction didn't make sense with the current version of the power, but not why the change was made to that version over a simpler solution that kept its previous functionality intact. Ditto that for A&D and Control Shift. You deny any change in design philosophy, but surely there's some rational behind these changes. I'd be interested to hear what it is, and I'm probably not the only one.

I don't know how I can answer this in a way that satisfies you if you don't believe my previous answers, but I'll give it my best shot.

The changes to She-Hulk and Doctor Octopus are unrelated to the change to Moonstone. We recently redesigned a giant batch of characters that most players would agree were on the weaker side in order to make them more powerful, interesting, and fun to use, while preserving or improving their story-telling and legibility. Sometimes the best design meant that they got better at some things and worse at other things. The fact that 3 of the several dozen powers that we've changed lately related to Countdown tiles isn't surprising, given how many abilities changed.

That's my last word on this.

TheOncomingStorm

Thugpatrol, while I think it is obvious to most that anti cd abilities have been diminished, I do not understand the fuss. While the characters were not great in players' eyes before the changes, they were balanced. Meaning of they were going to be improved in one area, they would have to give up something else in another area.

Shulkie for example, you can day she "lost" the ability to counter cd's, but that is only true in one respect and not the full picture.

Her green can slow down or prevent cd's from getting out. And while mediocre at best before, I'd argue she's near the top tier now.

Before doc ock blue wasn't cutting it for the ap cost. Now it is great against all these special tile characters. Plus, you can say he lost his counter cd ability, but I don't know anyone who was using him before on a consistent basis, much less using his blue for cds (except for EntrailBucket and Winged Sloth.)

it also hilights those characters that still deal with cds. One day maybe bagman will have real value. Hey, I said maybe.

I do think cd's have been kind of trivialize any way. I think most players have not seen those nodes as challenging as villain nodes in a while now. I rather lose a few counter cd abilities than them find other ways to make those nodes harder.

TL; DR: got to give up counter cd abilities if you wanted improved characters overall.

Edit - Winged Sloth said some ppl did use doc ock blue for cds.

Malcrof

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Thugpatrol, while I think it is obvious to most that anti cd abilities have been diminished, I do not understand the fuss. While the characters were not great in players' eyes before the changes, they were balanced. Meaning of they were going to be improved in one area, they would have to give up something else in another area.

Shulkie for example, you can day she "lost" the ability to counter cd's, but that is only true in one respect and not the full picture.

Her green can slow down or prevent cd's from getting out. And while mediocre at best before, I'd argue she's near the top tier now.

Before doc ock blue wasn't cutting it for the ap cost. Now it is great against all these special tile characters. Plus, you can say he lost his counter cd ability, but I don't know anyone who was using him before on a consistent basis, much less using his blue for cds (except for EntrailBucket and Winged Sloth.)

it also hilights those characters that still deal with cds. One day maybe bagman will have real value. Hey, I said maybe.

I do think cd's have been kind of trivialize any way. I think most players have not seen those nodes as challenging as villain nodes in a while now. I rather lose a few counter cd abilities than them find other ways to make those nodes harder.

TL; DR: got to give up counter cd abilities if you wanted improved characters overall.

Edit - Winged Sloth said some ppl did use doc ock blue for cds.

Fighting against blade's black and torch's green in pvp or even PVE, cd counters are handy. Let's not forget Cap

Also, many 4* chars are being given CD's, Starlord, Kingpin, Fury, XF...

So a CD counter would be nice, but it would need to be on a character that can stand in a team against those who have cd tile generators.

Prior, that was not Doc Oc or Shulk. So yes, no more counters, but i do agree, those 2 characters are much better off now then previously.

TheOncomingStorm

Malcrof wrote:

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Thugpatrol, while I think it is obvious to most that anti cd abilities have been diminished, I do not understand the fuss. While the characters were not great in players' eyes before the changes, they were balanced. Meaning of they were going to be improved in one area, they would have to give up something else in another area.

Shulkie for example, you can day she "lost" the ability to counter cd's, but that is only true in one respect and not the full picture.

Her green can slow down or prevent cd's from getting out. And while mediocre at best before, I'd argue she's near the top tier now.

Before doc ock blue wasn't cutting it for the ap cost. Now it is great against all these special tile characters. Plus, you can say he lost his counter cd ability, but I don't know anyone who was using him before on a consistent basis, much less using his blue for cds (except for EntrailBucket and Winged Sloth.)

it also hilights those characters that still deal with cds. One day maybe bagman will have real value. Hey, I said maybe.

I do think cd's have been kind of trivialize any way. I think most players have not seen those nodes as challenging as villain nodes in a while now. I rather lose a few counter cd abilities than them find other ways to make those nodes harder.

TL; DR: got to give up counter cd abilities if you wanted improved characters overall.

Edit - Winged Sloth said some ppl did use doc ock blue for cds.

Fighting against blade's black and torch's green in pvp or even PVE, cd counters are handy. Let's not forget Cap

Also, many 4* chars are being given CD's, Starlord, Kingpin, Fury, XF...

So a CD counter would be nice, but it would need to be on a character that can stand in a team against those who have cd tile generators.

Prior, that was not Doc Oc or Shulk. So yes, no more counters, but i do agree, those 2 characters are much better off now then previously.

Let's also not overlook the obvious. It's not like we'll be limited to the current characters. More are coming. I wouldn't be surprised if we'll eventually get new cd counters.

Buret0

Edit:

Resolved. Thanks!

Unknown

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Thugpatrol wrote:

So, forgive me for being in danger of going around in circles here but I'm still looking for a straight answer. Three powers, all with their ability to affect countdown tiles removed. Why? Your previous answer regarding Settlement explained why countdown interaction didn't make sense with the current version of the power, but not why the change was made to that version over a simpler solution that kept its previous functionality intact. Ditto that for A&D and Control Shift. You deny any change in design philosophy, but surely there's some rational behind these changes. I'd be interested to hear what it is, and I'm probably not the only one.

I don't know how I can answer this in a way that satisfies you if you don't believe my previous answers, but I'll give it my best shot.

The changes to She-Hulk and Doctor Octopus are unrelated to the change to Moonstone. We recently redesigned a giant batch of characters that most players would agree were on the weaker side in order to make them more powerful, interesting, and fun to use, while preserving or improving their story-telling and legibility. Sometimes the best design meant that they got better at some things and worse at other things. The fact that 3 of the several dozen powers that we've changed lately related to Countdown tiles isn't surprising, given how many abilities changed.

It's not so much that I don't believe your previous answers, it's that you didn't actually answer the question. And you haven't answered it here either. Yes, you did a design pass on a bunch of characters. And yes, on the altar of balance some things must be sacrificed. But that doesn't change the fact that you and your team made a conscious decision on three occasions to remove the countdown affecting component of a power, and I'm curious why that is.

Let's take a closer look at your last statement there: "The fact that 3 of the several dozen powers that we've changed lately related to Countdown tiles isn't surprising, given how many abilities changed." That's an interesting way to look at things, but let me see if I can make you see it from a different perspective. How many of the "many abilities" that were changed affected countdown tiles in the first place? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the answer is three. How many of the "many abilities" that were changed lost their ability to affect countdown tiles? Three again, or 100% if you prefer. How many of the "many abilities" that were changed gained the ability to affect countdown tiles? Again feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the answer is zero. So, of these "many abilities", all of the ones that affected countdown tiles directly had that functionality removed and no powers had it added.

What I'm trying to understand from you in all this is why is the ability to affect countdown tiles is weighed so low in your design decisions. Three out of three removed, and zero out of "several dozen" added is not a coincidence as you referred to it before. Coincidence is running into your buddy at 31 Flavors because you both happened to think at the same time that ice cream sounded like an awesome idea (which it is, frequently). This, on the other hand, is something you have done as part of your design process, choice by choice, whether you were consciously aware that you were doing it at the time or not.

Demiurge_Will wrote:

That's my last word on this.

That's really up to you. If you want to drop the mic and walk away after a series of half answers, okay. But this isn't some kind of elaborate troll or flamebait. Just questions about how things get decided that I, and likely others, would be interested in hearing more about. Most people around here really like your game. They want to know that you like it too. Let us have a little peek in the door. Let us see that you care. Evasions and generic answers do you little good, but being real will help us to see you as more than the extension of an evil corporate machine.

Arimis_Thorn

So for those not interested in keeping her, selling her at 2 covers of the same color will get you about 150% of the ISO back, yes?

Of course given how much they dropped the lower level costs, that will probably be a bonus 3 ISO...

Arimis_Thorn

I've never kept a single cover of hers and am now in the latter stages of the 2->3* transition. Is there any reason I should drop 700 hp to buy a slot for her? Does this change make her *that* valuable? I've already got Loki at 4 Black covers and will be getting the 5th when he comes around again in DPD.

I also have She-Hulk fully covered with 4 in Blue.

I can't seem to see a good reason to collect and level her. Is there something I'm not considering?

simonsez

Arimis Thorn wrote:

I can't seem to see a good reason to collect and level her. Is there something I'm not considering?

Not that I can see. As you implied, you already have two 3*s that serve the same function, and do it much better.

Unknown

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Thugpatrol, while I think it is obvious to most that anti cd abilities have been diminished, I do not understand the fuss. While the characters were not great in players' eyes before the changes, they were balanced. Meaning of they were going to be improved in one area, they would have to give up something else in another area.

She-Hulk and Doc Ock were balanced before? I think you're way off on that claim. No character with a power as bad as the old Reprieve could be considered balanced unless her other two powers were incredibly powerful. They weren't. Calling Doc Ock balanced before is almost laughable, considering they had to double the damage on his blue and green just to attempt to make him playable now. These characters weren't balanced before. The changes done to them were deemed improvement, and as part of that process they lost the ability to deal with countdown tiles. I'm merely trying to understand why that decision was made.

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

it also hilights those characters that still deal with cds. One day maybe bagman will have real value. Hey, I said maybe.

Do you know how many characters there are that still directly affect enemy countdown tiles? It's a really short list. OBW and your boy Bagman can increase the timers. Cap can overwrite them and so can Falcon, though his power targets randomly. 4* Thor can, if you put 5 covers into yellow, and if you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel you can throw in Yelena's Payback Mission, but that's it.

That's the list. Six characters out of 70, two of which aren't even remotely relevant and one, a 4*, who has to take major hits to other powers to gain the capacity. You can pad the list a little more if you add people like IW, who can lock down anything temporarily, and targeted board destruction powers like Hood or GSBW. You can even throw in random tile destruction if you're desperate, or CMags' yellow, which maybe could take out a countdown if one of the randomly placed protection tiles landed directly on it, but you're probably better off just buying a lottery ticket at that point if that's the kind of luck you're going to have. Taking away two powers that affect enemy countdown tiles may not seem like a lot, but it's an exclusive group that just got even smaller.

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

I do think cd's have been kind of trivialize any way. I think most players have not seen those nodes as challenging as villain nodes in a while now. I rather lose a few counter cd abilities than them find other ways to make those nodes harder.

This is really a different conversation, having more to do with PvE and scaling. The problem with goon countdowns is that at the levels that most people have to fight them it's either don't allow a single one to go off or suffer a hit that will probably cost you multiple health packs and precious time, so you need to use characters that can handle them flawlessly. The nodes don't need to be harder, PvE needs to be greatly overhauled, and this isn't really the right place to get into that.

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

TL; DR: got to give up counter cd abilities if you wanted improved characters overall.

No, you don't, and that's exactly my point. You seem to look at the removal of countdown affecting functionality as some sort of necessity in regards to improving these characters and that simply isn't the case. They could have been improved and kept their ability to interact with countdowns. Other characters that were "balanced" could have had countdown interaction added as part of their changes. But none of that happened because of decisions made as part of their design process and I find that curious.

Buret0

Arimis Thorn wrote:

So for those not interested in keeping her, selling her at 2 covers of the same color will get you about 150% of the ISO back, yes?

Of course given how much they dropped the lower level costs, that will probably be a bonus 3 ISO...

I don't think they decreased the ISO cost of the 2*s, did they?

Ducky

Thugpatrol wrote:

Do you know how many characters there are that still directly affect enemy countdown tiles? It's a really short list. OBW and your boy Bagman can increase the timers. Cap can overwrite them and so can Falcon, though his power targets randomly. 4* Thor can, if you put 5 covers into yellow, and if you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel you can throw in Yelena's Payback Mission, but that's it.

Except that is not it. QS can move tiles to match away CD tiles. IW can lock them so they aren't effective anymore. GSBW can get rid of them by blowing them up with Pistol. Starlord can overwrite a CD with his purple CD. Any type of board shake or board manipulation move can handle CDs. Heck, even Classic Hawkeye can get rid of them with his red ability.

Just because a character doesn't directly effect a CD doesn't mean that they aren't useful in dealing with CDs.