** Moonstone (Dark Avengers) **

Vhailorx

Thugpatrol wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Control Shift can lead to some great stories (like that time Miles stole a Recovery Countdown from Wolverine (X-Force)), but it has a lot of drawbacks: It’s situational and complicated for a 2-star [...] And it adds development and testing effort to every power that uses a Countdown tile in a new way, creating bugs and taking time away from other features we could be developing.

We fought to make it work for a long time because it can lead to cool moments, but ultimately a simpler, less expensive ability makes more sense for this character.

I'm going to start by mirroring other people's sentiments regarding communication and transparency. As such I will take you at your word on your reasoning for these changes, and thank you for taking the time to express them here for us to digest and attempt to understand.

Yes, Control Shift was an overcosted power that along with several others (Ballistic Salvo and Sentinel of Liberty say "Hi!") has long needed adjustment. As a 2* villain the implications of this power change are much more relevant in how it will be used against us (at ridiculously overscaled levels in PvE), and it is slightly disturbing that it is now arguably better than a 3* power (Settlement) and a 4* power (Double-Double Cross) that do similar things with far greater complications. Even so, taken at face value the changes are not unreasonable in and of themselves. That said, I find your comments that I've quoted above very concerning. The notion that a troublesome power, that while cool and different causes significant development issues, needs to be changed is not shocking. What is disturbing, however, is the trend of taking all the different and interesting powers out of the game for one reason or another.

CMags' blue was deemed overpowered (rightfully so), but instead of tweaking it and keeping a similar feel to the character we got copy/paste Falcon/Storm replacements, killing what is fondly remembered by many (myself included) as one of the most fun characters to use. The X-Force rework was long in coming, and Surgical Strike was a really interesting power with a lot of moving parts that required some thought and preparation in how to use it optimally. When he was deemed too powerful, instead of a workaround that kept the interesting bits intact it was simplified and sent off to the land of the bland. Too many times powers and characters have been altered for what may (or may not) be sensible reasons in ways that oversimplify and detract from the enjoyment of what is supposed to be at least in part a puzzle game that rewards creativity and intelligent play.

Okay, let's face it. Very few people really care about Moonstone or Control Shift. Everyone will adjust to facing her in PvE and the world will continue to spin on its axis. But you have sacrificed another power that was interesting and different. We can't have AP gathering from tile destruction now because of charged tiles. We can't have reasonably costed color swapping and tile manipulation because of Professor X. Now apparently we can't have countdown tile manipulation either because it causes too many back-end problems.

Where does it end? If the only tools we're allowed to have moving forward with which to slog through thousands upon thousands of hit points per battle are direct damage abilities and throwing special tiles back and forth, it's not going to make for a very interesting game to play. Challenge yourself to find solutions that don't suck all the color and flavor out of the game for the sake of simplicity. Fight harder for those "cool moments". They're more important than you think.

Exactly this! countdown tile theft was a cool idea, even if this power wasn't particularly good. Now, instead of making this interesting idea work, the devs are releasing yet another special tile theft power (and one arguably better than a she-hulk's power in that it takes more tiles for the same cost, even if it doesn't buff them). The game is now less variable, which is disappointing. And that doesn't even discuss the pve-enemy implications of this change.

udonomefoo

Wobby wrote:

Let's be fair. You have to bring a tile generator against high level Moonstone or Gravity Warp is a huge chunk of life taken off.

Since multiple people are calling me out on this, I will readily and humbly admit that I didn't think of the consequence of not bringing a special tile generator against Gravity Warp. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Which makes her a more interesting build, but agree that making Dark Avengers better isn't helpful since we have to fight against them all the time. I cringe every time someone calls for a buff to Bullseye.

wymtime

Buret0 wrote:

wymtime wrote:

On a side not anyone notice that Moonstone a 2* character at level 5 black is better than She-Hulks blue at level 5? She hulk buffs the 2 that she steals, but stealing 3 special tiles is actually more useful.

I guess that depends on the quality of the tiles available. If you are talking about the third tile being a Sentry Sacrifice tile or a Hitman yellow tile, then you are right.

If you are talking about one more Magneto protect tile from his, then the buff is going to certainly give you the edge.

Possibly, but the fact that at level 5 she-Hulk only converts 2 tiles when it says 3 and that 3rd tile does nothing for 9AP. As a 3* she Hulk should take 3 with the buff if a 2* can just take 3 for 9AP

Oldboy

I think the AP required for her new ability should go up. 9 AP is too low. Maybe 11 or 12 would be more appropriate especially when considering the fact she's a 2* and the other special tile stealers are 3*.

Edit: and what wymtime said above about She Hulk

ZootSax

Moonstone was my first fully-covered 2*, so I've always kept her around. She's been one of my all-stars in Prodigal Sun, and stealing Muscle's tommy guns has been no small part of that. I'm sure stealing their threaten tiles will be a more than adequate replacement.

I'm not entirely sure what her best build is now. Gravity Warp loses ~15% of it's damage going from 5-->3, and it no longer targets blue/green, which can be important for Muscle, Pyro, Grenadier & Sniper goons. The new Control Shift might be worth it, though...and probably is.

I won't miss seeing a Control Shift TU every time I drop a countdown tile of my own, though, even if PVE will be very different from here on out.

I also agree with others than 9AP does sound a little low...

Unknown

There was a time when I was first starting out and transitioning from 1->2* that my only usable characters (decently covered and leveled) were Moonstone and Cstorm. She's really tricky to play, but packs a whallup if you play her right AND get a decent board (her powers are pretty conditional and not dependable).

I don't mind this change, but it would be nice if we weren't constantly facing the same set of 5-odd DA characters in PVE's.

Also, I really hope the MBW nerf rumors are false. Starting out the game is a grind. If they need to disable MBW as a team-up ally that would be far preferable to making the game less accessible to newcomers.

Same thing with Juggs. Both weak characters (unless vastly overscaled), compared to any decently leveled 2*s or 3*s, but have utility in making the game playable before you develop a diverse roster that can handle different types of enemies effectively.

slidecage

could turn her naked and she still wouldnt have a slot on my team

TheOncomingStorm

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

No comment. I just wanted to say thank you. You have no idea how much the communication is appreciated.

Y'all don't be strangers. Feel free just to pop in the forum and just say hi sometime.

After reading these forums for a few days I'm not surprised if the devs ignore them. There is a 50:1 Negative:Positive post ratio around here. Basically EVERY post and every reply is **** about what they don't like. Reading them makes me wonder why I even play the game if I'm going to get as jaded (and completely entitled) as those who have been playing for a year or more. I can't begin to imagine the damage to morale that would happen if the devs were more actively reading all the vitriol that's directed at them, especially since most of it presumes that every change someone dislikes was specifically designed to completely screw them over.

A few days? I'll fill you in on the last 3 months. There have been a lot of changes in a short period, many of which maybe good for the long term health of the game were unpopular with many veterans because many of the changes came at their expense. Typically there is negativity, but not to this degree.

In great irony to your point, a lot of the negativity was because lack of communication from the mpq team.

Communication had gotten much better before that period. In retrospect, looking at the new characters and features, the absence was probably more due a full schedule than actively trying to avoid the forum.

Unknown

Dear Devs

Good change! Compensation for selling her is totally acceptable (due to no one spending HP on her).

I'm literally just posting so that there's another positive post in comparison to all these serial complainers.

avs962

I guess becomes good to use against her now. No tiles to steal, but there's always one to distract gravity warp.

PuceMoose

Moonstone is one of the six two stars I've hung onto, and I think this is a good change from a "playing with her on your team" direction. I will give her a shot in the DDQ soon. I lament the loss of one of the few remaining countdown dealers-with (and by far the most interesting), but the skill was nearly unusable in its previous form (that cost!).

Plus, I like to consider it a win when *any* older character gets attention. I still *shudder* remember that comment made quite a while ago where it was suggested that "it's more fun for the community if we make new characters instead of balancing old ones!" which pretty much depressed/enraged many MPQ fans who had played more than three months or so. So, kudos for the communication, and the attention to an older character, D3! I hope we see more balancing for older characters. Some changes we've generally liked (She-Hulk, Beast, Invisible Woman, Classic Magneto), some we've hated (Ragnarok), and some we've expressed everything from grudging acknowledgement to soul-crushing hatred (X-Force, 4Thor), and some that nearly everyone seems to agree need revisiting (Punisher, Psylocke, Spiderman).

Thank you for tackling changes to older characters and I hope you continue to do so!

dider152

This sucks. I'm probably the only one who loved Moonstone as she was, but I hate this change. Being able to steal countdown tiles was a good ability. If I used her against goons, it was nice to steal a rocket shot and send it back against the opposing team. The stun was nice, too. I also liked picking and choosing the right moment to use it (most likely when there was only one CD on the screen so you knew exactly what you were taking over) and the anxiety when you went ahead and used it if there were multiple CDs on the screen, and it was random which one you were going to take over.

Now Moonstone has basically become like the rest: a burst damage dealer. Her power was unique, unlike any other in the game. Now you basically just gave her Loki's power, except she can take over one other type of tile. This speaks to another problem with the game: a vast majority of characters released (and already in game) are basically just rehashes of a random selection of existing powers with a different character skin and ability graphics. It's like there is a small pool of powers you do in this game, and they all consist of doing burst damage, damage over time, and converting tiles.

Also, there are a bunch of other problems that need addressing, non of which is nerfing (because that's what this is) characters willy-nilly like it's going out of style. And yes, you said that CD stealing was causing problems. I would expect that you professionals would work through it (maybe designating certain CDs as impossible to steal) as opposed to just making her another boring character.

Unknown

Lidolas wrote:

TLCstormz wrote:

2. If you all could STOP releasing new characters so often and work on our existing ones that will help us and NOT harm us (Moonstone and Bullseye do not fall into that category, nor does nerfing 1*s or 2*s, buffing Spidey, Mohawk, GSBW, and Punisher does (but more effectively than Ock and Beast, pls)), that would also be greatly appreciated.

We are in our 2nd PvE in a row without a new character release, and this one, Hulk, is a 7 day event. I like the break and I hope they are using the time wisely.

Considering the new character release rate is supposedly every 14 days and we just got 4!! new characters in 17 days, they still owe us another 29 days off after the Hulk event ends.

Throw in the fact that HP in PvE has been cut drastically and the 2star essentials that most of us cut to roster the new 3star characters, and we could definitely use the extra four weeks off. As for time well spent, if it is on anything but solving the roster cost issue, then they could have used it better.

Unknown

I knew keeping moonstone was a good idea. :> She was my first maxed 2 star. And I kept her over wolverine because I already had 2 red, green, yellow characters

Pwuz_

Demiurge_Will wrote:

virtually no one has invested Hero Points to upgrade Moonstone's powers.

"Virtually no one," so does that mean someone has?

Oh, you silly whales you! I envision some investment banker on Wall Street buying covers for her just cause she reminds him of this girl he dated in college.

I bet he's the same guy who attacks and loses to my teams in PvP netting me a +50 point defensive win.

Now to fill all my remaining roster slots with extra Moonstone covers in anticipation of the increased sale price.

DFiPL

Demiurge_Will wrote:

To refresh your memory, Control Shift steals an enemy Countdown tile and stuns the enemy if there are none. Upgrades increase the stun and can shorten the Countdown.

Will, is the stun being removed in addition to the changes in tile theft and cost reduction? It sounds from context like the answer is "yes," but I'm hoping for some clarification.

Unknown

I like the change as it makes much more useful. Better late than never I guess as those in 2* land can always use some help.

Moon Roach

There was this one time, at band camp...

KingOzymandius

Yeah ... I'm super bummed out. As in to the point that I might finally be selling Moonstone. She was my first reasonably covered , I built my entire roster on her, and I've kept her since the beginning because of her unique ability that nobody else in the game has ... Control Shift. Now it's going to be just another variation on Loki's Trickery, She-Hulk's Settlement, etc.

Well, it's another roster slot at least. Hopefully they work out whatever bugs they were having with the power and reintroduce it on a Emma Frost (it's ridiculous that she isn't in the game already, but that's another discussion entirely). It's a cool, niche ability that has saved my bacon more times than I can count.

And just read the bit about no HP for selling her. That's really tinykitty annoying. I mean, I didn't spend HP on her either, but Hero Points are a virtual currency that you (the Devs) can basically print more of at your leisure. It is literally nothing to you. The Hero Points for characters after they get gutted and all trace of originality is removed from them, it's the sole redeeming feature of these kind of changes.

*sigh*

I've had a bad day, so I'm sorry if it seems like I'm getting overly worked up about something that, objectively speaking, should be pretty minor. But this is the first time in recent months that your changes have made me legitimately angry. X-Force, GoT? 1/1/4 and 1/0/1. Not covered enough where I actually use them, so these changes weren't so much as a blip on my radar. MnMags? Sure he's different, but still like him just the same. Maybe better. Mystique? Sure she's a little less efficient, but she's still my favorite character in the game.

Why would you make Moonstone, one of the oldest characters in the game, worse? Rhetorical question. You gave your reasoning, and objectively speaking she might be better gameplay wise (at least for the *smash your face in with X-Force, rinse, repeat* crowd). But she'll be so boring now.

/endrant

MarvelDestiny

Demiurge_Will wrote:

...it [Moonstone's CD manipulation] adds development and testing effort to every power that uses a Countdown tile in a new way, creating bugs and taking time away from other features we could be developing.

Thugpatrol wrote:

Where does it end? If the only tools we're allowed to have moving forward with which to slog through thousands upon thousands of hit points per battle are direct damage abilities and throwing special tiles back and forth, it's not going to make for a very interesting game to play. Challenge yourself to find solutions that don't suck all the color and flavor out of the game for the sake of simplicity. Fight harder for those "cool moments". They're more important than you think.

I am not going to address whether this is a buff or nerf; there is plenty of discussion along those lines already. I want to address a wider issue; the underlying reason for the change (ie, easier coding) and it's results.

These types of coding decisions are not new. For several months now Will and his team at D3 have been aggressively analyzing and adjusting characters to conform to 'power bands'. These have resulted in a lot of unpopular changes, not just to characters but to scaling/mmr too. The CD manipulators particularly are being targeted in the name of easier coding. She-Hulk, Moonstone, Doc Ock, and (I think) one other character have been hit so far. Sometimes these are well-received (for the most part), other times not so much.

Will, I want you to know I understand the reasons for easier coding and can not fault you for finding ways to help your team be more efficient and less stressed all while still growing the game--kudos for that. I can imagine the large # of variables and coding changes your team has to wrangle for each CD manipulator every time a new character with CD abilities is added to the game. It must be incredibly time consuming. I'm also sure that from a coding standpoint the results of any cost-benefit analyses for this change were good and I can not argue that point. At first glance, Moonstone's black is better balanced and costed. I have to wonder, though, if the long-term health of the game in terms of popularity or desirability were factored in. Because I have to agree with Thugpatrol.

I have been concerned about the direction of MPQ since the March update:

MarvelDestiny (posted in 'Re: The Truth about PVE scaling and Roster Levels') wrote:

...In the last update video Will, Miles, and Kabir talk about molding characters to within acceptable limits of a statistical 'power band'; they want them to 'match the curve'. By doing so they should theoretically be able to better manage PVE and PVP scaling regardless of character powers and this should result in a more balanced gaming experience (assuming the math is solid). Look for this trend to continue.

Unfortunately, this is flawed logic and creates a lackluster game. If every character has to be equal with every other character within their class the game flattens out and becomes colorless. The outliers are what creates the sense of excitement and fun. I'd be jazzed to earn PX covers (he's a little above my pay grade at the moment, but give me time). Now imagine if PX was 'power banded' to be equal to, say, Electra or Fury. It's just not the same. He'd still be powerful, but the excitement would drain away. This concept is vaster in scope on the 3* frontier and if implemented universally would break the game. All interest in MPQ would evaporate.

This trend is continuing to collapse MPQ further. Or to put it another way, you guys are taking away all our sprinkles. Yeah, plain ice cream is ok but it's so much better with all the good stuff mixed in. Where will it end? The CD manipulators are the juicy targets now, who'll be next? There will always be another complex coding issue rising to the top.

I look forward to seeing the new features you mention are being developed to replace all our sprinkles. You've done a good job with some of the recent additions. Contrary to popular opinion, I like the Maximoff's. And Hulkbuster is good too. I also like the variety in PVP teams (even if I'm not happy with scaling/mmr or all the boosted characters). In general, I see the direction you want to take the game and I like the destination. I am hopeful that the end result--an optimally balanced game--is both achievable and near.

TL;DR - The culture of coding simplification is ironically killing MPQ.