Vault:150 days play for 3750 hp and 20k ISO, worth it?

atomzed

A quick calculation shows that 3 months of daily playing will net you 300 tokens. That allows you to unlock every single item in the vault.

Just looking at the HP and ISO alone, a player will get 3750 HP and 20k ISO.

For a player who pays, spending 3 months effort for approximately 30 dollars worth of HP and ISO isn't probably worth it.

But for F2P players, are you glad tat you will at least get 3750 HP and 20k ISO every 3 months?

I just like to hear your opinion on this.

Varg138

150 days is roughly 5 months, plus it doesn't look like you factored in the ISO you would gain from selling covers and the 30x1500 ISO offered in the vault, which is another 45k

fmftint

IF you have every 3* and/or never miss a day

Unknown

Is there a Q&A for the vault somewhere? I was under the impression that the vault refreshed after 7 days. Is this true? And do tacos carry over or can they only be used in the week they are collected?

Unknown

My honest opinion, which may conflict with prevailing sentiment, is that the vault is smoke and mirrors for reducing the overall chances of getting rare/legendary covers.

I think the health pack rewards are unnecessary, and while the ISO rewards are nice, I'd prefer to see those percentages taken up by 3/4*'s instead.

You're still likely to get **** the majority of the time, but the pool of gold pulls now dwindles as you pull them (which already was pretty low), so it seems like a reduction to me. Of course, I could be wrong.

To explain more clearly: most of the pulls in the vault are ****, so pulling one of the **** pulls doesn't reduce your odds of pulling **** in any meaningful way, given the overall percentage of ****. However, there're fewer gold rewards, so each time you pull one of those, it substantively reduces your overall odds of pulling another gold. Hence why the vault is smoke and mirrors for reducing overall odds of pulling anything good.

If they wanted the vault to do its actual, stated purpose (make it easier to get gold pulls), there'd be no repeats and a single copy of each 2/3/4* and each HP/ISO reward. Of course, if they did, they'd probably release an army of 2*'s to dilute the pool, rather than actually letting players have decent draw rates.

wymtime

fmftint wrote:

IF you have every 3* and/or never miss a day

I do have all 3* and I don't miss a day. No this is not enough rewards. They need to make the vault have 9 4* instead of 3. A 1% chance at getting a 4* is way too low. Also they need to eliminate a lot of health pack rewards and add a 100HP, 50HP and some 2500 ISO. For tacos I hoed tokens till I can try and get the 3* I need and then I use my stock pile. Normally around 30-40 tokens. If the vault is suppose to help the 4* transition they are being extremely stingy with the covers. If you open 30 tokens on the 30th pull you still have 1.1% chance of pulling a 4* cover, and only a .369% chance of getting the one 4* you want. You would need to open 200 vault tokens to get to a 3% chance of getting one 4* cover. I know they can adjust in the players favor later on, but they have to know this is not enough 4* in the vault. You have better odds with a regular heroic token (3% (10X.3)) to get a 4* cover than in the vault. This should be reversed, or the same odds at worse.

Pylgrim

theHappyDance wrote:

My honest opinion, which may conflict with prevailing sentiment, is that the vault is smoke and mirrors for reducing the overall chances of getting rare/legendary covers.

I think the health pack rewards are unnecessary, and while the ISO rewards are nice, I'd prefer to see those percentages taken up by 3/4*'s instead.

You're still likely to get **** the majority of the time, but the pool of gold pulls now dwindles as you pull them (which already was pretty low), so it seems like a reduction to me. Of course, I could be wrong.

The chances of getting legendary covers was 0%. Now it's 1%. That's not a reduction. And yes the pool of gold covers dwindles but so do the pool of other items, something that never happened under previous conditions. Before, you could theoretically have a seemingly endless run of 2* covers, but now, with the vault, even the worst possible luck eventually pays up.

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

The chances of getting legendary covers was 0%. Now it's 1%. That's not a reduction. And yes the pool of gold covers dwindles but so do the pool of other items, something that never happened under previous conditions. Before, you could theoretically have a seemingly endless run of 2* covers, but now, with the vault, even the worst possible luck eventually pays up.

There's a serious flaw in your logic. This would only be true if the vault didn't reset every 4-7 days or whatever the refresh rate is. But say you pull **** everyday (which is normal for most people on Tacos). Then when the vault resets, it resets the **** pulls so your odds of pulling **** haven't actually gone down at all.

But say you pull something good. It now reduces your chance of pulling anything else good in a non-trivilial way, since a higher percentage of spots are made up of ****.

~73% of the vault is **** (2* pulls, health packs, and ISO)
~17% of the vault are gold pulls (3*/4*/HP)

So given that, the statistical benefit of reducing the 247 pulls that make up the **** category by 1 is insignificant compared to the statistical detriment of reducing one of the 53 pulls that make up the gold pull category by one.

simonsez

theHappyDance wrote:

But say you pull something good.

Then you wait for the vault to reset.

You're not wrong that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors here, but you are wrong that this is reducing our chances of getting anything good. People will get 4*s out of this, and they never did before. That makes it a win.

That said, the implementation is incentivizing people to hoard a ton of tokens. I don't understand why the devs want us to be doing that. I prefer to think that they're just bad at math, and don't understand that with a pool of 300 prizes, and a 5 day reset, redeeming tokens as you win them doesn't perceptibly alter your probabilities of getting a specific prize at all.

Unknown

So is there only 1 set of taco tokens? We can save for 150 days straight and dump them on any given week? Are there no more "odd" and "even" sets? This "sweet" thing is throwing through a loop.

Monochromize

300 hoarded tokens, woo

Stax the Foyer

simonsez wrote:

theHappyDance wrote:

But say you pull something good.

Then you wait for the vault to reset.

Exactly, if you get a disproportionate amount of good pulls early in your token burn, then call it a week and wait until the vault resets (and you build up enough of a stockpile for your tastes) before pulling any more.

Knowledge of the remaining prizes is information that you can leverage to your advantage.

Tyronepowers

Stax the Foyer wrote:

simonsez wrote:

theHappyDance wrote:

But say you pull something good.

Then you wait for the vault to reset.

Exactly, if you get a disproportionate amount of good pulls early in your token burn, then call it a week and wait until the vault resets (and you build up enough of a stockpile for your tastes) before pulling any more.

Knowledge of the remaining prizes is information that you can leverage to your advantage.

This exactly. Previously the odds NEVER changed. Each pull is calculated individually off the same probability chart. 2% for a 3* cover is always 2%. With this I have knowledge of the cards remaining in the "deck" and can choose to "reshuffle" (wait for a vault reset) or keep drawing out of the same pile. I am personally much happier with this system, as it gives me more ability to see what I am really drawing from and plan accordingly. I rarely pull a 3* cover I need at this point, so this at least allows me to save and see precisely what my odds are.

That said, d3 can take the health packs from the vault and chuck them straight in the trash bin. By the time I burn my 10 regenerating healthpacks, I am tired of playing anyway or getting hammered with retaliations and need shield anyhow. I would rather have more, 2 or 6 color boosts (10 packs?) or 250 iso prizes. Just personally preference though as I actually use those.

OzarkBoatswain

Here's my strategy.

If the vault has three 4* covers I need, I'll spend tokens. Otherwise I'll save them.
If I pull junk, I'll keep spending tokens.
If I pull a great reward, like a 4* or 1000 HP, I'll stop spending tokens until it resets.

This should give me better rewards over the long term, although there's an element of luck involved.

wade66

All these comments about hoarding exist under the assumption that tokens can carry over. It is highly possible that the "sweet" comment after the vault is a sub-designation, and only the tokens with the same sub-designation can be used during that run. If they change it every reset, hoarding tokens would be pointless.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

theHappyDance wrote:

But say you pull something good.

Then you wait for the vault to reset.

You're not wrong that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors here, but you are wrong that this is reducing our chances of getting anything good. People will get 4*s out of this, and they never did before. That makes it a win.

That said, the implementation is incentivizing people to hoard a ton of tokens. I don't understand why the devs want us to be doing that. I prefer to think that they're just bad at math, and don't understand that with a pool of 300 prizes, and a 5 day reset, redeeming tokens as you win them doesn't perceptibly alter your probabilities of getting a specific prize at all.

The logic behind The Vault's implementation is pretty simple: it encourages you to buy 40x tacos, something I think had very few sales before. Not that this will work, but it's pretty clear that's at least part of why the vault has 300 items in it.

Leugenesmiff

So it looks at first glance that it's similar to a regular group of covers/token draw except they're giving you thumbnail images of what's in it instead of the old list. I'd thought this was going to be a cool new feature, not just a more visual way of seeing what you may get from your tokens. Oh well.

wymtime

Leugenesmiff wrote:

So it looks at first glance that it's similar to a regular group of covers/token draw except they're giving you thumbnail images of what's in it instead of the old list. I'd thought this was going to be a cool new feature, not just a more visual way of seeing what you may get from your tokens. Oh well.

It is different in the fact once you pull something it leaves the vault. It is a good system in theory, but they need to increase the 4* prizes and get rid of a lot of the health packs.

Others hav mentioned 1% of getting a 4* is better than it was before, but the reality is it is worse odds than Heroic pulls. In order to get a 3% chance of getting a 4* you need to pull 200 vault tokens. I hope after a season they see how low the odds really are and add mor 4*.
the health packs have to be the worse prize in the vault on most days. You can't sell them so if you are not going to play long enough to run through 15 health packs it is a waste. At least 3* can be sold for ISO, and are needed for essential characters in PVE. 5 health packs will be useful only on special days where someone not only can play long enough to use 15 health packs but wants too.

TLCstormz

Who's to say that these Vault Tokens will actual POOL into the same stockpile for anyone to have the opportunity to even hoard, though?????

What makes ya'll think that they won't all go to different stockpiled pages, just like they "accidentally" did with the DDQ Tacos.........which they "haven't been able to fix, yet"?

dkffiv

wymtime wrote:

Leugenesmiff wrote:

So it looks at first glance that it's similar to a regular group of covers/token draw except they're giving you thumbnail images of what's in it instead of the old list. I'd thought this was going to be a cool new feature, not just a more visual way of seeing what you may get from your tokens. Oh well.

It is different in the fact once you pull something it leaves the vault. It is a good system in theory, but they need to increase the 4* prizes and get rid of a lot of the health packs.

Others hav mentioned 1% of getting a 4* is better than it was before, but the reality is it is worse odds than Heroic pulls. In order to get a 3% chance of getting a 4* you need to pull 200 vault tokens. I hope after a season they see how low the odds really are and add mor 4*.
the health packs have to be the worse prize in the vault on most days. You can't sell them so if you are not going to play long enough to run through 15 health packs it is a waste. At least 3* can be sold for ISO, and are needed for essential characters in PVE. 5 health packs will be useful only on special days where someone not only can play long enough to use 15 health packs but wants too.

(I did a breakdown here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30965)

I believe the old tacos were 2% per featured making it 10% chance for a 3*. Off the bat the new system is 11.33% with a 1% chance for 4*. You can't compare them to heroic pulls because you get 2 free every day.

For me the only bad prize is a 2* (58.33%) because its 250 ISO, everything else is pretty sweet. I need no 3* or 4* covers (at least from what is currently available) so if I pull any of those they're just ISO, less than the 1500 prizes I could obtain 10% of the time. Health packs cost 200 HP so if I can get them for free (when I need them) that's really really good.

Overall it seems like a good upgrade to an already generous system, for anyone complaining about getting health packs remember that in the old system that probably would've only been 250 ISO anyway.

TLCstormz wrote:

Who's to say that these Vault Tokens will actual POOL into the same stockpile for anyone to have the opportunity to even hoard, though?????

What makes ya'll think that they won't all go to different stockpiled pages, just like they "accidentally" did with the DDQ Tacos.........which they "haven't been able to fix, yet"?

We'll see in a week but I think its a lot more complicated for them to make separate vaults. As is they have to generate and keep track of a random one for each player and would thus have to track 2+ at a time if there were multiples. With the old tacos they had fixed draw %'s per week, with this one I think it would be much easier for them to just roll them over. I could be wrong but we'll find out soon enough.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

You're not wrong that there's a lot of smoke and mirrors here, but you are wrong that this is reducing our chances of getting anything good. People will get 4*s out of this, and they never did before. That makes it a win.

I think you're missing something here.

The things people were asking for (in terms of the DPD) was for better token odds, and an easier way to earn 4*'s. People's suggestions were have a separate Taco that gave you 1 4* a week, which would be slow, but at least somewhat reliable.

The vault isn't really any different than standard 2* tokens, except with much worse odds, health pack and ISO rewards thrown in to dilute the pool, and statistically worse luck any time you get a good pull. On top of that, it hides the percentages to give the illusion that your odds are better than they are (as Lerysh states to encourage people to buy giant packs). And they even threw in a gambling wheel to make it even more like a casino / slots. Hurray! (sarcasm)

I have to say, I've generally been disappointed with a lot of changes they've made. In principle, the ISO cost reduction was nice, but in practice that hasn't made any positive difference to me. Super scaling in PVE supersedes using most of my roster, and in PvP time commitment is much higher than it used to be, and none of my maxed 3*'s scare anyone anymore so I can no longer place (as soon as I break 800-850, I get hammered for 200-300 points and end up barely placing for anything). So I've been more focused on PvE now, but I was never happy with the time commitment to reward there.

DPD was what brought me back into the game, in hopes they'd keep moving things in that direction, but from all appearances, they're moving to make PvP more and more grindy, and requiring shields. It seems like they're backing off DPD as well (making it more grindy/ less rewarding with the vault).

The one thing that's inarguably good they did was to lock roster slot prices at 1000 HP. In theory this would motivate me to put more money in, except they don't seem willing to make really meaningful changes to the formats to make the game easier on players' lifestyles I have an accumulated $150 digital balance that I was going to spend on roster slots after that change, but my ability to get more covers without an insane amount of effort / time commitment has steadily dwindled since I've come back. Almost all have been lucky token pulls these past several seasons, which isn't enough for me. I like being able to reliably earn covers, not earn a "chance" to pull some random covers. The first few seasons I was back, I had no problems placing in PvP when I played, but now it's all but impossible (even with the fact that I never PvP anymore). PvE I don't feel has improved in any meaningful way either, except it's somewhat better now that you have more health packs.

So I still haven't seen anything to motivate me to spend more money on this game. I put in some money on roster slots during the first Ultron run, but I haven't seen much since then that excites me enough to see that I'll actually get some tangible value for putting anything into this game right now.