RE: Increased Incendiary Behaviour on the Forums.

Raffoon

Also, I'm just going to go ahead and post this. It is apparently "Incredulous Baby"

Unknown

Jasonzakibe wrote:

johnaaron33 wrote:

Jasonzakibe wrote:

Just know, what you're doing is reprehensible.

He is doing what he volunteered to do when signing up to be a Mod. He is doing his best to keep the Forums civil. And I would do the exact same thing.

How is trying to get people to be nice to each other reprehensible?

This is not about trying to get people to be nice to each other. This is about getting people to stop criticizing the game. I assure you that I have been directly instructed to stop criticizing this company. I can guarantee he was told to do this to by d3 as a pretense to silence critics.

Sorry Gothic, you are about to give out your first warning. No need to say it. I consider myself verbally warned.

As a player for a year and a half, and as a forum member for well over a year, I just have to ask if you are wearing your tin hat?

I have criticized A LOT (and I do mean A LOT)of the choices/changes that D3/Demiurge have made over the last year (But I have also given credit where credit was due and backed down when they gave legitimate answers to questions that needed to be answered in order for us to have the full picture). And not just "Hey you messed up!" I mean I went tinykitty (I typed it, it's not filtered in) crazy on their tinykitties on here. I have went as far as to message ALL the red names with critiques that could make proud grown men cry. And not once have I even been told, warned, or otherwise directed to not do as such. And I am much more well known on the Forums, mostly becasue I am outspoken and and long winded at times.

So the IF, and that is a BIG "IF" you were told by the men in red to cool your jets, maybe you should consider your approach. Because I am generally very harsh with my critiques and don't hold back. However, I am NEVER spiteful, mean, nasty, or ridiculously rude. I say ridiculously rude because even I realize that from time to time, passion gets the best of me when it come to MPQ because it is a game that I love. It is the only game in my adult life that has even been able to keep my attention this long.

Jasonzakibe

All of my posts are out there. You be the judge.

Oh and not the men in red, the men in green.

fight4thedream

Jasonzakibe wrote:

johnaaron33 wrote:

Jasonzakibe wrote:

Just know, what you're doing is reprehensible.

He is doing what he volunteered to do when signing up to be a Mod. He is doing his best to keep the Forums civil. And I would do the exact same thing.

How is trying to get people to be nice to each other reprehensible?

This is not about trying to get people to be nice to each other. This is about getting people to stop criticizing the game. I assure you that I have been directly instructed to stop criticizing this company. I can guarantee he was told to do this by d3 as a pretense to silence critics.

As far as i am aware GK decided to make this post of his own volition. None of us mods have been told by any of the red names to target posts critical of the company. In fact, Hi-Fi warned us against being too heavy handed when it comes to our mod decisions.

I think GK just wanted to clarify his mod stance and give everyone a fair warning but i will let GK expound further on his thinking if he so wishes.

Unknown

Two things. Clearly the OP is flamebaiting.

Also GK said they will take it easy for a couple weeks to start taking these seriously. This obviously mean it's a free for all of insults and flame wars for the next two weeks. This is like The Purge but all about raisinbman

Stax the Foyer

danae wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

... I'm saying that you don't have to carry yourself like a middle school child (and if you do so choose to do so, you now know the consequences)....

This is discrimination to all those middle school children playing this game! How are they supposed to act?!?

Well, method acting is out, sounds like.

morph3us

I keep on reading the title as "Increased Edentulous Behaviour on the Forums," and then imagine all the forumites as grumpy old men, waving their sticks at each other.

GothicKratos

forch wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

@arktos: Sassy, as usual, but, I'm not saying that the forumers are a source of a problem. I'm saying that you don't have to carry yourself like a middle school child (and if you do so choose to do so, you now know the consequences). I have no intention to prevent people from speaking their mind. I have every intention of preventing people from talking down to one another.

Does anyone else see the irony here? In a post to scold people to stop talking down to others, you talk to them as a parent talks to a middle school child (the definition of talking down to someone in case you can't follow the logic). Your post adds little to the conversation (what point did you make other than to bully others whose behavior you don't appreciate?) and literally resorts to name calling @arktos. Are you going to give yourself a stern warning and then proceed to a ban if you don't stop talking down to others on the forum? Or is it okay for you to do what ever you like, including violating your own rules in a thread about how you will be enforcing those rules? This is the sort of hypocrisy that is the mark of an argument that lacks the merit of logic but is backed by a title gifted by others.

I apologize if you find the word 'sassy' demeaning in some form or another. I don't really view it as such, after all it basically just means you're cheeky (which I view as a positive thing, honestly - I'm sassy, my girlfriend is definitely sassy, and so is my mother - all people I highly respect), but if you feel I violated a rule, feel free to report me (or any other moderators).

Additionally, if you feel like I am "scolding" anyone, I'm sorry you feel that way, but I didn't use any kind of negative language (except maybe 'sassy'), and I didn't put anyone on display, so I fail to see it myself. I didn't go "you've been some naughty little children and now you're gunna pay!". That would be silly and nobody would respect that anyways. I did make it a point to say that there's some things going on in the forums lately that are unsavory (and are in fact already against the rules), and that I wasn't going to continue being complacent with the behaviour.

Finally, if you are referring to the "middle school children" analogy, it wasn't aimed at anyone specific, but the model of behaviour I am talking about, and I apologize if you are directly or indirectly offended by that remark. That was not my intention.

forch wrote:

Silencing dissent doesn't create a healthy environment in which the community grows. It only confirms the assumptions that, rather than have open conversations about the issues in the game, the mods and devs would rather sweep the issues under the proverbial carpet. The behaviors you are trying to stamp out are, more often than not, the result of passion for a game that people really enjoyed. They don't want to give it up, but the actions of the devs has driven many of us to do just that. If you don't take a step back and rethink this path, I hope that who ever appoints you recognizes the damage that a post like this causes and asks you to step out of the position as a mod.

While I understand it's easy to get 'caught up in the moment' and say something in the heat of whatever emotions you're feeling - a humane, respectful human being apologizes or amends their statements after coming to the realization that they were harsh, or other while over-reactionary. I've been there, done that. Even on this very forum. I understand it happens. There's probably a good six posts I regret writing when I wrote them and I'm fairly certain I apologized for each and every one of them. I've gotten my fair share of wrist slaps too.

I don't care to snuff any sort of conversation. If you want to talk about how you hate the new changes, please do so. I don't like all of them either. If you want to talk about how much you love a new feature, please do so. I won't necessarily agree, but that doesn't mean your opinion shouldn't exist. If you want to make a suggestion, please do so. There's been a lot of great suggestions, and most, if not all, of the greatest changes for the game have been born on the forums.

All I care about doing it making sure people are respectable to one another. No calling either other stupid. No disqualifying people from having an opinion. That stuff is petty and unnecessary.

GothicKratos

Whoa, there was a lot of posts while I was writing that. xD

How can I squash this rumor that someone put me up to this post? Would a post of my OP in the mod forum suggesting this be acceptable?

Unknown

Jasonzakibe wrote:

All of my posts are out there. You be the judge.

Oh and not the men in red, the men in green.

-39 rep points in the last 30 days. And had they not taken this feature away, I am sure it would have been more.

And I didn't just look at your rep and call it a day. I actually read some of your post. And from what I can see, I was right. It is your approach. You have some good things to say. But unfortunately, they are lost in a foggy haze of expletives, telling the devs to basically go *blank* themselves. And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

You can be frustrated. You can be mad. You can be tinykitty angry. HULK SMASH ANGRY even. But you have to use your words to your advantage. If a Dev reads your post, and in the 3rd sentence you told them to go *blank* themselves, but in a manner just under what would get you banned, how much further do you think the Dev reads? The answer is he doesn't. He writes that post off, makes a mental note of that name, and skips to the next post. So even if your idea was good, even if your feedback could have helped, you have shot yourself in the proverbial foot.

You have to be more constructive and re-read your post several times. This to make sure that if you put something in there that might even closely be regarded as destructive, you find a different way to rephrase it. And if it is unuseful or unhelpful to the content that you are trying to portray, delete it.

Your good ideas go no where if people see your name and immediately think it a flame post or response.

morph3us

johnaaron33 wrote:

You can be frustrated. You can be mad. You can be tinykitty angry. HULK SMASH ANGRY even. But you have to use your words to your advantage... <snip>

You have to be more constructive and re-read your post several times. This to make sure that if you put something in there that might even closely be regarded as destructive, you find a different way to rephrase it. And if it is unuseful or unhelpful to the content that you are trying to portray, delete it.

Your good ideas go no where if people see your name and immediately think it a flame post or response.

If I could upvote this more than once, I would. It's frighteningly easy to post something in the heat of the moment, but I think rule number one of the internet should be "Don't post anything you wouldn't say face-to-face to someone." Take five to ten minutes, cool off, then post.

I'm sure that rule number one of the internet is something related to pron, but I'm afraid to look it up at work.

Cypr3ss

GothicKratos wrote:

We have maybe four or five guys that would just mass downvote each other like at least once a month.

So here's a crazy thought, give those 4 or 5 people a temporary ban, and if they keep it up, a permanent ban.

Why remove a useful tool for 99% of the forum base when 1% are abusing it, why not address the 1% instead?

I get people are mostly confused and just missed entirely that it was for down-voting spam and the like, not an "I disagree" button, but if that's the form its taken and it works (cept for the aforementioned 1%) why not run with it?

Regards,
Cypr3ss.

Unknown

Where is the troll bridge?

Thanks,

James

NighteyesGrisu

Tredo wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's called a debate...

I think "attack" is the operative word. It might be an assumption, but my guess is that the goal is to assist forumites maintain a civil tone while debating.

I think attacking a person's opinion should be perfectly valid. It's attacking the person itself that should be stopped. Of course it often (especially in heated debates) gets harder to separate the two.

In any case, a reminder to remain civil and more polite does serve us all (myself obviously included) well.

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

Observation: things were not THIS bad before downvoting was removed.

totally off topic, but that line made me think of HK-47..ah the memories.

Bowgentle

To me, this thread exemplifies what is wrong with the forum.

Normally it _should_ suffice to have one forum rule, and that is "don't be a **** to other people here".

Mods would enforce that the way they see fit.

Instead, we get an incredibly wordy post from GK explaining what he'll do in the future.
Even that wordy post isn't enough, so we get _another_ wordy post explaining in even more detail what he meant.

Reminds me of the scaling algorithm that just gets more byzantine the more it is tinkered with.

Can't we go back to using common sense both here and in the game without coming up with elaborate rules?

Dauthi

Raffoon wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's called a debate...

No, in a debate you would not call someone's opinion stupid for instance. You would have to have empirical data to back this claim which would be impossible since "stupid" is subjective and above all else derogatory. Rule one of debating should be to always remain respectful to the other party. As Tredo asserted, remain "civil".

There should never be a need to label someone's opinion anyways. All you should do is explore what they believe, and point out the fallacies/misinformation behind it.

Hey there, you keep referring to an example of calling an opinion "stupid". I'm certainly against name-calling or putting down another person directly. Attacking a person is not the same as attacking an idea, though.

I take issue with the rule that a person cannot attack an opinion. Every opinion stems from a central idea. Pointing out the flaws in that idea is an attack against the idea. An an attack against an idea is an indirect attack on any opinion based on that idea. Indirect attacks on opinions are expressly prohibited in the OP.

Any good idea should stand up to attack, though, right? That's the whole point of a debate is to put an idea up to an attack and see if the idea withstands it. If the idea is flawed it will fail against a well reasoned rebuttal.

I think we agree that it's not necessary to label an opinion, though. Simply pointing out faults/fallacies of the opinion or idea should be sufficient.

So, in a good discourse, you attack my ideas if you don't agree with them, and I'll attack your ideas if I don't agree with them. At the end of the day we can still respect each other as people.

Saying that you can't attack an idea is like saying you can't downvote it through reasoned words. Sometimes ideas need to be tested and scrutinized.

I disagree. Attacking has connotations of being harsh and crude, so you can debate my ideas, and I will debate yours. I believe "attack" was used because it is a statement of aggressiveness, not civility. Debating has rules, while attacking doesn't. I think this is the crux of what we are getting at here.

Tannen

fight4thedream wrote:

... honestly I don't think you have to worry about any mods going rogue and carrying personal vendettas ...

https://d3go.com/forums/reputation.php?mode=details&u=1423

That last reputation event, issued by IceIX with the perma-ban? That was a mod going rogue and carrying on a personal vendetta.

Cheers.

Unknown

fmftint wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

You might as well go all in for alliteration in the title : Increased Incredulous Intentions are Igniting in our Forums.

Violation of rule 1

And here I thought rule no. 1 was "You don't talk about fight club".

Oooooops

fight4thedream

Tannen wrote:

fight4thedream wrote:

... honestly I don't think you have to worry about any mods going rogue and carrying personal vendettas ...

https://d3go.com/forums/reputation.php?mode=details&u=1423

That last reputation event, issued by IceIX with the perma-ban? That was a mod going rogue and carrying on a personal vendetta.

Cheers.

Although i am not familiar with the incident, i will eat my humble pie and admit that it is entirely possible.

That said, i do find it highly improbable with the current mod squad. *fight prays none of the other mods decide to go postal in his mod tenure because he doesn't want to eat more humble pie. He doesn't like pie. With the exception of pizza pie, of course*

Anyway, i will state once again that the best way to deal with any major problems involving mods is to directly contact either Hi-Fi or IceIX by PM. We are only human so we are bound to make miscalls and mistakes, hopefully nothing too big but if you think the issue is important enough and don't feel comfortable talking it over with the mod in question then the best course of action would be to talk to Hi-Fi.

El Satanno

Bowgentle wrote:

To me, this thread exemplifies what is wrong with people on the internet.

Normally it _should_ suffice to have one forum rule, and that is "don't be a **** to other people here".

Mods would enforce that the way they see fit.

Instead, we get an incredibly wordy post from GK explaining what he'll do in the future.
Even that wordy post isn't enough, so we get _another_ wordy post explaining in even more detail what he meant.

Reminds me of the scaling algorithm that just gets more byzantine the more it is tinkered with.

Can't we go back to using common sense both here and in the game without coming up with elaborate rules?

Fixed that for you, right at the top there. You can't just go that route because, as is very obviously happening here, the first reaction to any moderation will be "It doesn't say that in the rules!" We can't go back to using common sense because, as far too many people have demonstrated, that is a somewhat elusive trait. I manage people for a living, and I've moderated more than a couple of fora as well. I also skew towards verbosity. (Maybe GK is my twin brother?) The trend is not exclusive to this place. Leave the rules loose and you get the Wild West. Give any detail or explanation and you end up with 12 pages of replies dissecting every single term.

Whatever the case may be, I know where he is coming from and I know where he wants to go. I think you do as well, Bowgentle (and others, of course). Maybe we could all pitch in to make it easier for everyone by simply calling out unnecessarily aggressive behavior. Too bad we don't have a way to do that without putting up a full post...