RE: Increased Incendiary Behaviour on the Forums.

Wonko33

GothicKratos wrote:

He meant my "rules", and it's cute, but Dauthi's post wasn't any form of degradation to a user or the thread. It was funny.

I'll try and post a more lengthy thing later, but I'm cooking dinner right now. I knew people would intentionally try and torll this to make a point, but to accuse me of trying to create a totalitarian state? Whew.

You've just raised a very interesting point... what's for dinner?

Unknown

Most of it I agree with. However, I have concerns about this one:

Direct, or indirect, attacks on a person's opinion

People are going to disagree on things, and a lot of times when someone posts a counter example the op will feel it is 'an attack' on their opinion. If you're making a poignant counter to an argument, yes, it is an attack on the opinion, but it's not the same as saying, 'Your opinion is stupid.' There's a big swath in between. Having the word 'opinion' in there seems problematic, particularly if this is held up as the standard.

I'm also particularly worried about getting warnings for responding to posters who misinterpret my opinion and straw man them, forcing me to repeat myself in different ways, which looks very close to circular arguments.

Raffoon

• Direct, or indirect, attacks on a person's opinion.

I'm pretty sure that's called a debate...

Tredo

I'm pretty sure that's called a debate...

I think "attack" is the operative word. It might be an assumption, but my guess is that the goal is to assist forumites maintain a civil tone while debating.

Dauthi

I'm pretty sure that's called a debate...

No, in a debate you would not call someone's opinion stupid for instance. You would have to have empirical data to back this claim which would be impossible since "stupid" is subjective and above all else derogatory. Rule one of debating should be to always remain respectful to the other party. As Tredo asserted, remain "civil".

There should never be a need to label someone's opinion anyways. All you should do is explore what they believe, and point out the fallacies/misinformation behind it.

Nooneelsesname

Serious question: What happens if we report a mod?

morph3us

GothicKratos wrote:

[*]Direct, or indirect, attacks on a person's opinion, character, or otherwise.

Might be an idea to clarify this. I understand what you're saying, but it seems a lot of people are misinterpreting this as a descent into totalitarianism. There's a difference between attacks on an opinion, and discussion/debate.

Tredo

Dauthi wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's called a debate...

No, in a debate you would not call someone's opinion stupid for instance. You would have to have empirical data to back this claim which would be impossible since "stupid" is subjective and above all else derogatory. Rule one of debating should be to always remain respectful to the other party. As Tredo asserted, remain "civil".

There should never be a need to label someone's opinion anyways. All you should do is explore what they believe, and point out the fallacies/misinformation behind it.

Most importantly, offer your counterpoint in an informed manner, without attacking the person's character. Please, everyone, let's try to turn this around. You're going to scare people away from the forums and possibly the game.

Many of the most negative posters on here are some of the game's best players. That's a shame. Those players probably have a lot of information that would help new players. But, couching their information in attack posts and knee-jerk reactions probably causes most people to stop taking them seriously.

Der_Lex

Nooneelsesname wrote:

Serious question: What happens if we report a mod?

On most forums, everyone with moderator/admin status will receive a copy of post reports, or at least a note by mail that a report has been made about thread X and/or user Y. So if you report a mod, the devs and possibly the other mods will know and take a look at the report and act appropriately.

GothicKratos

I tried my best to phrase this as carefully as possible. Clearly I should have taken more time. So I'm going to take a few minutes and address concerns one by one.

=====

Memes/Image Macros/Quips:

First, let me dissect my own post;

"Off-topic or non-contributing posts, such as posting image macros, memes, or quips that add nothing to the conversation at hand (in an effort to derail or otherwise devalue the conversation)."

Emphasis mine, of course , but I was using those things as an example, not a definitive.

I have no intention of giving a warning just for posting a meme. I do have intentions to hand out warning for people posting memes to attack or derail a conversation. I post memes from time to time. Guys, I love memes.



Especially Gordan Ramsey memes. There, a meme! It's harmless fun. I get that.



EVERYWHERE! Just don't be rude or cruel (and I'd probably advise not spamming ). That's all I'm really asking.

====

Circular Arguments:

Yeah, these definitely happen without them being purposely annoying. A lot of people do it without noticing and that's fine, but it would be naive to presume that there are not people that do this on purpose too. Essentially I was just covering as many bases as possible so it couldn't be pleaded that "it wasn't listed", in the case it became apparent that someone was being overbearing, or are using it to be pushy or otherwise negative. As I said, "intentional argumentative behaviour" - it's generally pretty obvious when someone is being directly crass and when they're just daft.

====

"Attacking an Opinion":

An attack, I mean, we all know what this means, right? When you're debating or discussing something, you're not attacking someone or their thoughts. You're civil and you're humane to one another. Points and counter-points come with the territory, but doing that shouldn't demean their ability to have an opinion. Basically, again, as long as you're not cruel or mean about it, you're going to be a-okay.

I personally, also, love a good debate, and there's no denying that it is healthy for the community (and the game) at large. I'm in no way trying to stamp out discussions. Debates are a huge source of enjoyment for me, so I wouldn't want to see them go anywhere.

====

incredulous:

Your face is skeptical! But in all seriousness, maybe it's not the best word choice, as it kind of doesn't get the point across right, but I'd call a few of our user's behaviour "skeptical", at best. Maybe I'll try for an alliteration in a different letter.

====

At the end of the day, I just want to see people stop shoving each other down and shoving their opinions around like they're the word of God (and thusly should bow down, be quiet, and just accept it). Say you don't like things, say you like things, or ignore all that and just make suggestions.

GothicKratos

Nooneelsesname wrote:

Serious question: What happens if we report a mod?

Reports are kept in their own menu in the Control Panel. I can't tell you that nothing keeps a moderator from making said report disappear if they get to it first, but what I would suggest is to PM a mod you trust, or to PM HiFi, IceIX, etc.

Unknown

GothicKratos wrote:

I'll try and post a more lengthy thing later, but I'm cooking dinner right now.

You're not obliged to.

OnesOwnGrief

Gothic is censoring my American right to be belligerent. This is no beuno! Viva La Revolución!

Unknown

GothicKratos wrote:

At the end of the day, I just want to see people stop shoving each other down and shoving their opinions around like they're the word of God (and thusly should bow down, be quiet, and just accept it). Say you don't like things, say you like things, or ignore all that and just make suggestions.

You are saying this ?

For once, you make me smile.

danae

GothicKratos wrote:

... I'm saying that you don't have to carry yourself like a middle school child (and if you do so choose to do so, you now know the consequences)....

This is discrimination to all those middle school children playing this game! How are they supposed to act?!?

MarvelDestiny

danae wrote:

GothicKratos wrote:

... I'm saying that you don't have to carry yourself like a middle school child (and if you do so choose to do so, you now know the consequences)....

This is discrimination to all those middle school children playing this game! How are they supposed to act?!?

DOH! I sense a circular argument coming on...

Jasonzakibe

johnaaron33 wrote:

Jasonzakibe wrote:

Just know, what you're doing is reprehensible.

He is doing what he volunteered to do when signing up to be a Mod. He is doing his best to keep the Forums civil. And I would do the exact same thing.

How is trying to get people to be nice to each other reprehensible?

This is not about trying to get people to be nice to each other. This is about getting people to stop criticizing the game. I assure you that I have been directly instructed to stop criticizing this company. I can guarantee he was told to do this by d3 as a pretense to silence critics.

forch

GothicKratos wrote:

@arktos: Sassy, as usual, but, I'm not saying that the forumers are a source of a problem. I'm saying that you don't have to carry yourself like a middle school child (and if you do so choose to do so, you now know the consequences). I have no intention to prevent people from speaking their mind. I have every intention of preventing people from talking down to one another.

Does anyone else see the irony here? In a post to scold people to stop talking down to others, you talk to them as a parent talks to a middle school child (the definition of talking down to someone in case you can't follow the logic). Your post adds little to the conversation (what point did you make other than to bully others whose behavior you don't appreciate?) and literally resorts to name calling @arktos. Are you going to give yourself a stern warning and then proceed to a ban if you don't stop talking down to others on the forum? Or is it okay for you to do what ever you like, including violating your own rules in a thread about how you will be enforcing those rules? This is the sort of hypocrisy that is the mark of an argument that lacks the merit of logic but is backed by a title gifted by others.

Silencing dissent doesn't create a healthy environment in which the community grows. It only confirms the assumptions that, rather than have open conversations about the issues in the game, the mods and devs would rather sweep the issues under the proverbial carpet. The behaviors you are trying to stamp out are, more often than not, the result of passion for a game that people really enjoyed. They don't want to give it up, but the actions of the devs has driven many of us to do just that. If you don't take a step back and rethink this path, I hope that who ever appoints you recognizes the damage that a post like this causes and asks you to step out of the position as a mod.

fight4thedream

Nooneelsesname wrote:

Serious question: What happens if we report a mod?

From personal experience, Hi-Fi will contact the mod with the complaint filed against the mod and his decision regarding the matter. He will not reveal who filed the complaint. If you have a genuine complaint against a mod, it is probably best to directly contact Hi-Fi or IceIX rather than report a mod post through the report function (although honestly I don't think you have to worry about any mods going rogue and carrying personal vendettas but you never know).

The mods are here to facilitate members enjoyment of the forums, to ensure that information is available and organized, to fight the endless spam hordes and, yes, to enforce forum rules. However, please do realize we are also forum members, too, and when we are not in mod mode we *may* say things that others might not agree with or reflects our personal opinion that may not be in line with D3/demiurge's thinking. And of course you are free to take us to task when you feel such opinions are off the mark.

But if you ever feel that a mod is abusing their status, please do not hesitate to contact Hi-Fi, IceIX or any of the other mods.

We are just here to help

Raffoon

Dauthi wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's called a debate...

No, in a debate you would not call someone's opinion stupid for instance. You would have to have empirical data to back this claim which would be impossible since "stupid" is subjective and above all else derogatory. Rule one of debating should be to always remain respectful to the other party. As Tredo asserted, remain "civil".

There should never be a need to label someone's opinion anyways. All you should do is explore what they believe, and point out the fallacies/misinformation behind it.

Hey there, you keep referring to an example of calling an opinion "stupid". I'm certainly against name-calling or putting down another person directly. Attacking a person is not the same as attacking an idea, though.

I take issue with the rule that a person cannot attack an opinion. Every opinion stems from a central idea. Pointing out the flaws in that idea is an attack against the idea. An an attack against an idea is an indirect attack on any opinion based on that idea. Indirect attacks on opinions are expressly prohibited in the OP.

Any good idea should stand up to attack, though, right? That's the whole point of a debate is to put an idea up to an attack and see if the idea withstands it. If the idea is flawed it will fail against a well reasoned rebuttal.

I think we agree that it's not necessary to label an opinion, though. Simply pointing out faults/fallacies of the opinion or idea should be sufficient.

So, in a good discourse, you attack my ideas if you don't agree with them, and I'll attack your ideas if I don't agree with them. At the end of the day we can still respect each other as people.

Saying that you can't attack an idea is like saying you can't downvote it through reasoned words. Sometimes ideas need to be tested and scrutinized.